No cars in Dublin CC....?

cnocbui

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh god, not another thread ruined by the anti-cycling lot.

Back in topic, this is precisely why the Cross City extension should have Park and Ride facilities at or near Broombridge. Preferably the line would have gone another couple of km out towards the N3/M50 junction, and out one there, but even one at Broombridge would be a massive help. It'd add a lot of people from Cabra and Finglas, and the N3 corridor, who aren't currently close to one of the new stations, into the mix.

As it is, does anyone know if Dublin Bus might adjust their routes slightly to connect with the Luas? Has this happened with lines previously opened?

I'm out. The pro-cycling fanatics win.

Sam Russell

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh god, not another thread ruined by the anti-cycling lot.

Back in topic, this is precisely why the Cross City extension should have Park and Ride facilities at or near Broombridge. Preferably the line would have gone another couple of km out towards the N3/M50 junction, and out one there, but even one at Broombridge would be a massive help. It'd add a lot of people from Cabra and Finglas, and the N3 corridor, who aren't currently close to one of the new stations, into the mix.

As it is, does anyone know if Dublin Bus might adjust their routes slightly to connect with the Luas? Has this happened with lines previously opened?

The 7 and 7A are adjusted with the 7 going to Bride's Glen Luas stop. It is recent but never the less, it has happened.

So there is a chance.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh god, not another thread ruined by the anti-cycling lot.

Back in topic, this is precisely why the Cross City extension should have Park and Ride facilities at or near Broombridge. Preferably the line would have gone another couple of km out towards the N3/M50 junction, and out one there, but even one at Broombridge would be a massive help. It'd add a lot of people from Cabra and Finglas, and the N3 corridor, who aren't currently close to one of the new stations, into the mix.

As it is, does anyone know if Dublin Bus might adjust their routes slightly to connect with the Luas? Has this happened with lines previously opened?

There already is P & R facilities at Navan Road Parkway for the inner N3 corridor and at M3 Parkway for the outer traffic - there isn't space at Broombridge for one as the maintenance and storage facilities use that up.

I would imagine that there will be a review of the bus network in the area, but I don't see massive changes happening in terms of route redesign - people tend not to want to pay twice for a trip.

Deedsie

cnocbui wrote: »

You really are an unbalanced fanatic. A whole 1.08% of the urban population cycle and you think that 'proves' the climate is appropriate?

98.02% of the urban population of Dublin don't cycle - that more strongly tends to suggest the climate is unsuitable than your fatuous claim.

Back up that stat with a reference please.

21,500 pedestrians cross the canal everyday. 12000 cyclists cross the canal every day. 33500 pedestrians and cyclists v 52000 private cars and falling.

I wonder which causes the most disruption.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/big-rise-in-cyclists-riding-into-dublin-as-transport-heads-urge-network-overhaul-35457793.html

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

There already is P & R facilities at Navan Road Parkway for the inner N3 corridor and at M3 Parkway for the outer traffic - there isn't space at Broombridge for one as the maintenance and storage facilities use that up.

I would imagine that there will be a review of the bus network in the area, but I don't see massive changes happening in terms of route redesign - people tend not to want to pay twice for a trip.

Yes, I know about the existing P&R facilities, but they're not going to help people who want to use the Luas. There's no room in the actual station, but there's plenty surrounding it that could be used.

And yes, I agree that integrating the ticketing better needs to happen asap, even more so because of these car access changes

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, I know about the existing P&R facilities, but they're not going to help people who want to use the Luas. There's no room in the actual station, but there's plenty surrounding it that could be used.

And yes, I agree that integrating the ticketing better needs to happen asap, even more so because of these car access changes

Where exactly are all these people going to drive from to use the LUAS?

Broombridge isn't exactly on a major arterial route?

There isn't large amount of space there. Look at google earth and the BXD alignment drawings. The entire site east of Broombridge Road is required for the depot and storage sidings.

West of Broombridge Road is built upon and private land.

Can't people park at one of the P & R stations and change at Broombridge?

Frankly I'd expect that most of the modal shift onto LUAS in this area is likely to be from the existing bus services.

Anyhow hasn't all of this more to do with LUAS Cross City rather than the traffic proposals for the city centre?

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Where exactly are all these people going to drive from to use the LUAS?

Most of west Finglas, Ashtown, Cabra, a good part of Castleknock, maybe even parts of Glasnevin could find it very useful if they were heading south of the city centre on the Green Line.

Broombridge isn't exactly on a major arterial route?

Maybe not, but it's very easy to get to from the N3, and pretty easy from the N2 too. N3 people might use the rail P&Rs if they're going to the right places, but the N2 has basically nothing.

There isn't large amount of space there. Look at google earth and the BXD alignment drawings. The entire site east of Broombridge Road is required for the depot and storage sidings.

West of Broombridge Road is built upon and private land.

I don't need to look, I live right around the corner and pass it all the time The point I've made here and in the past is that most of that private land might be built upon but is basically not used. Dublin Industrial Estate and the small bits south of the canal are ghost towns, and there are plenty of derelict/abandoned warehouses available within a 5 minute walk of Broombridge.

Can't people park at one of the P & R stations and change at Broombridge?

This only really makes sense for the stations further out - travelling from Navan Road to Broombridge and then transferring is the kind of little bit of extra hassle that would put enough people off of using public transport, I think.

Frankly I'd expect that most of the modal shift onto LUAS in this area is likely to be from the existing bus services.

Yes! I definitely agree, which is why I'm hoping that some of the bus routes will adjust in order to connect with the Luas.

Anyhow hasn't all of this more to do with LUAS Cross City rather than the traffic proposals for the city centre?

I originally brought it up as I think providing more Park and Ride services along more corridors will be vital with these traffic proposals.

Middle Man

Deedsie wrote: »

cnocbui wrote: »

You really are an unbalanced fanatic. A whole 1.08% of the urban population cycle and you think that 'proves' the climate is appropriate?

98.02% of the urban population of Dublin don't cycle - that more strongly tends to suggest the climate is unsuitable than your fatuous claim.

Back up that stat with a reference please.

21,500 pedestrians cross the canal everyday. 12000 cyclists cross the canal every day. 33500 pedestrians and cyclists v 52000 private cars and falling.

I wonder which causes the most disruption.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/big-rise-in-cyclists-riding-into-dublin-as-transport-heads-urge-network-overhaul-35457793.html

Could you also furnish us with the rail and tram usage stats so that we can see cycling in its real context...

...edit: You can factor in 89,000 for the Luas in 2015 - a lot of which I imagine pertains to the city centre. Add to that 43,800 ( 16m p.a.) for the DART - I'm sure commuter rail will add significantly to that figure.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Most of west Finglas, Ashtown, Cabra, a good part of Castleknock, maybe even parts of Glasnevin could find it very useful if they were heading south of the city centre on the Green Line.



Maybe not, but it's very easy to get to from the N3, and pretty easy from the N2 too. N3 people might use the rail P&Rs if they're going to the right places, but the N2 has basically nothing.



I don't need to look, I live right around the corner and pass it all the time The point I've made here and in the past is that most of that private land might be built upon but is basically not used. Dublin Industrial Estate and the small bits south of the canal are ghost towns, and there are plenty of derelict/abandoned warehouses available within a 5 minute walk of Broombridge.



This only really makes sense for the stations further out - travelling from Navan Road to Broombridge and then transferring is the kind of little bit of extra hassle that would put enough people off of using public transport, I think.



Yes! I definitely agree, which is why I'm hoping that some of the bus routes will adjust in order to connect with the Luas.



I originally brought it up as I think providing more Park and Ride services along more corridors will be vital with these traffic proposals.

To be fair the N2 has one of the few decent working QBCs around with an existing direct link to the inner Green Line in the form of the 140 bus.

I don't see a massive change in the bus routes happening - the 38, 46a 120, 122 will all pass close by or adjacent to a LUAS stop.

As I've already said I'd expect most of the traffic to come from the local Cabra, Phibsborough and NCR areas rather than to be coming from further afield (except for rail transfers).

I really don't expect existing bus routes to be re-routed to be honest.

Middle Man

lxflyer wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, I know about the existing P&R facilities, but they're not going to help people who want to use the Luas. There's no room in the actual station, but there's plenty surrounding it that could be used.

And yes, I agree that integrating the ticketing better needs to happen asap, even more so because of these car access changes

Where exactly are all these people going to drive from to use the LUAS?

Broombridge isn't exactly on a major arterial route?

There isn't large amount of space there. Look at google earth and the BXD alignment drawings. The entire site east of Broombridge Road is required for the depot and storage sidings.

West of Broombridge Road is built upon and private land.

Can't people park at one of the P & R stations and change at Broombridge?

Frankly I'd expect that most of the modal shift onto LUAS in this area is likely to be from the existing bus services.

Anyhow hasn't all of this more to do with LUAS Cross City rather than the traffic proposals for the city centre?

Well without the Luas, you wouldn't get very far with reducing car traffic - in fact, at least two more Luas lines are needed (Lucan-South Docks and Greenhills-Coolock) as well as extending the Green Line to Charlestown, Finglas. Then there is Metro and Dart expansion needs. If you want to reduce car traffic, then we need to invest big time!

LXFlyer

Middle Man wrote: »

Well without the Luas, you wouldn't get very far with reducing car traffic - in fact, at least two more Luas lines are needed (Lucan-South Docks and Greenhills-Coolock) as well as extending the Green Line to Charlestown, Finglas. Then there is Metro and Dart expansion needs. If you want to reduce car traffic, then we need to invest big time!

I think the Finglas extension is a good idea.

I'd argue that the proposed Lucan LUAS would be interminably slow due to the route, and any notion of putting an overground rail solution in south and southwest Dublin is pointless due to it having to share space on existing narrow and congested roads.

The only long run solution to our public transport is a combination of under ground.

Lucan needs DART Underground and P & R at Kishogue.

The whole region between the Red and Green lines can only be dealt with properly with a Metro South - that really should be the focus on extending Metro North southwards rather than converting the Green Line.

At the same time BRT needs to be implemented where feasible to support the rail infrastructure.

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

There already is P & R facilities at Navan Road Parkway for the inner N3 corridor and at M3 Parkway for the outer traffic - there isn't space at Broombridge for one as the maintenance and storage facilities use that up.

I would imagine that there will be a review of the bus network in the area, but I don't see massive changes happening in terms of route redesign - people tend not to want to pay twice for a trip.

And that highlights a massive flaw in the system. It should be 90 minute or 2 hours unlimited travel across all modes like most other cities with decent public transport.

Chivito550

Deedsie wrote: »

Id have thought it unnecessary to quote public transport numbers in such a discussion. Of course public transport numbers are a far bigger reflection. However the stupid point that was being made was that Irelands climate is not suitable to cycling.

22500 pedestrians and 12000 cyclists every day disagree with that point.

I agree completely, public transport has a much more significant impact than cycling on reducing car numbers. They are doing a great job. We spend millions on our luas lines, buses, trains, darts.

F all is spent on cycling or pedestrian infrastructure. I wonder what those cycling 12000 and pedestrian 22500 could be swelled to with 10% of the transport budget.

Not disagreeing one bit with your points about cycling, but in what way is public transport doing a "great job" in Dublin? It is not. It is utterly terrible by European standards. The hordes of people sitting in their cars like sheep is evidence of its failings.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

And that highlights a massive flaw in the system. It should be 90 minute or 2 hours unlimited travel across all modes like most other cities with decent public transport.

That all boils down to funding - that would require increased subsidies to compensate for lost fare box revenue.

Where is that money going to come from?

It's all and well and good complaining about our PT system and highlighting its failings, but until we change our attitude and lobby our public representatives for meaningful changes I don't see that kind of issue being addressed.

It will take things grinding to a standstill before we get infrastructural change and I've seen no indication that the NTA are planning to move away from LEAP discounts/capping.

El Tarangu

Chivito550 wrote: »

... The hordes of people sitting in their cars like sheep is evidence of its failings.

I disagree with you here: I live in a country with very good public transport, but people still choose to sit in traffic, because of inertia, laziness... I don't know.

I think congestion charges between the canals is a good idea - it will make people really think about if they need the car or not. That, and making parking spaces a taxable benefit-in-kind.

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

That all boils down to funding - that would require increased subsidies to compensate for lost fare box revenue.

Where is that money going to come from?

It's all and well and good complaining about our PT system and highlighting its failings, but until we change our attitude and lobby our public representatives for meaningful changes I don't see that kind of issue being addressed.

It will take things grinding to a standstill before we get infrastructural change and I've seen no indication that the NTA are planning to move away from LEAP discounts/capping.

I don't have the answers to that. All I can say is how come other countries can do it right, yet as usual we make an absolute boll0x of these kind of things?

Example, when I lived in Melbourne I would top up my Myki card every 28 days for a flat fare for zone 1 (I rarely needed to go out to zone 2). It was around 110 dollars from memory but this was 3-4 years ago. For that price I could use unlimited trams (28 lines or so), all metropolitan trains (around 15 lines) and all metropolitan buses. Only regional transport was not included.

If you preferred to go the route of topping up by credit rather than paying for a set amount of days, then it automatically calculated that you would pay 3.90 no matter how many modes you took within that 2 hour period. The daily cap was double the 2 hour cap. Obviously much cheaper to top up on a monthly basis and cheaper too on a weekly basis, but the credit system was handy for those not using public transport not too much and they got unlimited travel for either 2 hours or for the day.

So unbelievably pain free and simple. Different modes connected well with each other too, though the buses were pretty sh1te. But they were a distant third in terms of usage after trains and trams.

bk

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not disagreeing one bit with your points about cycling, but in what way is public transport doing a "great job" in Dublin? It is not. It is utterly terrible by European standards. The hordes of people sitting in their cars like sheep is evidence of its failings.

While I agree that it needs to improve significantly, just a reminder that the vast majority of people in Dublin City Center get their by walking, cycling and public transport.

Only 19% of people who shop in DCC got there by car, the other 80% by walking, cycling and public transport.

It only seems like there are hordes of people sitting in cars, because cars are so inefficient form of transport and waste so much space per traveller and they currently take up proportionally way more road space then the numbers actually using them.

Another reminder, that almost as many people cycle on the quays per hour as their are sitting in cars!

Chivito550

bk wrote: »

While I agree that it needs to improve significantly, just a reminder that the vast majority of people in Dublin City Center get their by walking, cycling and public transport.

Only 19% of people who shop in DCC got there by car, the other 80% by walking, cycling and public transport.

It only seems like there are hordes of people sitting in cars, because cars are so inefficient form of transport and waste so much space per traveller and they currently take up proportionally way more road space then the numbers actually using them.

Another reminder, that almost as many people cycle on the quays per hour as their are sitting in cars!

It's not just about the city centre though. In order to get to the city centre I have to pass through awful bottlenecks in Terenure, Harold's Cross and South Circular Road, all full of cars. Will be great to have buses flying through the city centre, but not much use when it takes about an hour to get to the city centre in the first place.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

It's not just about the city centre though. In order to get to the city centre I have to pass through awful bottlenecks in Terenure, Harold's Cross and South Circular Road, all full of cars. Will be great to have buses flying through the city centre, but not much use when it takes about an hour to get to the city centre in the first place.

There isn't much chance of significantly improving the journey times on that corridor due to the restricted road width - they can tinker with it, such as improving the left hand corner at Kelly's Corner to allow buses make the turn without crossing over a lane. But the road space isn't there to deliver full QBCs.

The only solution is an underground rail line and that isn't even remotely on the horizon.

I seem to recall you mentioning getting on a 16 at Kingston? Have you tried either walking down to Balally LUAS, or walking down to Ballinteer Avenue and taking a 14 or 75 to Dundrum and LUAS from there? The RTPI is usually on the mark for those buses as it's mid-route. At peak times that would be faster to St Stephen's Green and south city centre, and when the LUAS extension is opened it will open more of the city centre to that option.

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

There isn't much chance of significantly improving the journey times on that corridor due to the restricted road width - they can tinker with it, such as improving the left hand corner at Kelly's Corner to allow buses make the turn without crossing over a lane. But the road space isn't there to deliver full QBCs.

The only solution is an underground rail line and that isn't even remotely on the horizon.

I seem to recall you mentioning getting on a 16 at Kingston? Have you tried either walking down to Balally LUAS, or walking down to Ballinteer Avenue and taking a 14 or 75 to Dundrum and LUAS from there? The RTPI is usually on the mark for those buses as it's mid-route. At peak times that would be faster, and when the LUAS extension is opened it will open more of the city centre to that option.

At this stage I'm about 50/50 in terms of LUAS and 16 in the mornings. Some days I walk the 20 minutes to the LUAS, other days when I don't feel like the walk, I'll get the bus. I tried the 14 to Dundrum LUAS in the morning and it was a disaster. Bus travels on narrow roads infiltrated with non moving traffic. I was on the bus 5 minutes and the driver advised me that I'd be better off getting off and walking. The 20 min walk to Ballaly is the quickest option that time of the morning.

The 16 isn't as bad coming home, and sometimes I take the LUAS home and connect with the 14, which moves faster at that hour usually. Though sometimes the traffic in Dundrum village can be bad at 6pm, and sometimes the bus just doesn't appear and I end up getting back on the LUAS one stop and walking home.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

At this stage I'm about 50/50 in terms of LUAS and 16 in the mornings. Some days I walk the 20 minutes to the LUAS, other days when I don't feel like the walk, I'll get the bus. I tried the 14 to Dundrum LUAS in the morning and it was a disaster. Bus travels on narrow roads infiltrated with non moving traffic. I was on the bus 5 minutes and the driver advised me that I'd be better off getting off and walking. The 20 min walk to Ballaly is the quickest option that time of the morning.

The 16 isn't as bad coming home, and sometimes I take the LUAS home and connect with the 14, which moves faster at that hour usually. Though sometimes the traffic in Dundrum village can be bad at 6pm, and sometimes the bus just doesn't appear and I end up getting back on the LUAS one stop and walking home.

It depends on what time you're travelling in the morning - if it is after 08:00 until say 09:15, then every route around Rathfarnham, Ballinteer, Dundrum and Terenure is going to be busy with both schools and general traffic. And there isn't some magic wand that is going to change that unfortunately.

Between say 07:30 and 08:10 the buses from Ballinteer to Dundrum will move reasonably quickly and before that the 16 is fine.

There's also the 116 that passes Ballinteer SC at about 07:50 or so which will drop you on Sandyford Road just up from Balally LUAS - it goes directly along the Wyckham bypass and avoids Dundrum.

I've been commuting all over Dublin using public transport for twenty five years (and in particular south Dublin both east/west and north/south) and I've long learnt that the earlier you can start the better.

I do understand your frustration, but I do think that you need to be realistic in your expectations. Things do not happen quickly on the public transport front in this country.

As I said above - there is no quick fix for south central and southwest Dublin. The roads are too narrow for bus lanes in either direction for the entire route, and there is no space for an overground rail solution - the only solution is an underground Metro, but the NTA aren't even near to putting that on the radar for the area. The current transport strategy document only envisages BRT along the Rathfarnham corridor, and I have serious misgivings over how that will work given the road space constraints.

The plan for the city centre has good aspects and bad aspects - good is the effort to try and prioritise public transport through the city centre, bad is the extended routes that some bus routes are going to have to take.