Landlord entered property twice without permission

Lord Trollington

Hi Folks,

Just looking for a bit of advice . We are moving out of our property in the coming weeks.

We gave our landlord notice several weeks ago. Last Monday my wife dropped our kids to creche and came back to find the landlord standing in the living room with a measuring tape .he made some small talk asked was everything ok and left .

I flipped a lid when I found out and wanted to ring him but my wife prevented me as he knows our new landlord and we haven't signed the lease yet and we also want to get our deposit back .

Today we were away from the house and he entered again, how I know this time is because we have phone watch and the alarm was set. The sensors picked him up throughout the house and in and around back Garden and upstairs . When I rang him he said he has left a message to say he was coming round on my voice mail .

To say I am seething would be an under statement . I am completely filled with rage over his Antics. Despite the alarm going over he still managed to hoke around our place when we weren't there without permission . Just looking for advice on what others would do, I don't want to over react and lose on new property even tho we've deposited paid etc

Any advice?!?

JPCN1

PRTB.

pilly

Lord Trollington wrote:

To say I am seething would be an under statement . I am completely filled with rage over his Antics. Despite the alarm going over he still managed to hoke around our place when we weren't there without permission . Just looking for advice on what others would do, I don't want to over react and lose on new property even tho we've deposited paid etc

It is a little bit of an overreaction if you're moving out in a few weeks. I would do nothing except tell the LL that you want proper notice between now and then before they enter the house.

Lord Trollington

JPCN1 wrote: »

PRTB.

That was my first thought but we're here 5 years and I cannot remember If it registered with PTRB, it went through a letting agent so I presume it had to be ?!

pilly

And what would PRTB do when you're moving out?

Lord Trollington

pilly wrote: »

It is a little bit of an overreaction if you're moving out in a few weeks. I would do nothing except tell the LL that you want proper notice between now and then before they enter the house.

What's an over reaction ?

pilly

Lord Trollington wrote:

What's an over reaction ?

To be completely filled with rage over this.

Elemonator

Someone is looking for comp for nothing.

Lord Trollington

pilly wrote: »

To be completely filled with rage over this.

An over reaction in my eyes would be to drive round to his place of residence when he's not there , go in and sit in his living room and wait for him to return and see how he likes it.

He never asked for permission to enter the property on 2 different occasions . Set off the alarm in the process the 2nd time and despite the alarm going off proceeded to walk around the house being picked up on the various cameras around the building .

The first time he was in the property when my wife entered on her own one morning . We let it go that time . I personally think fairly level headed over it

Lord Trollington

Elemonator wrote: »

Someone is looking for comp for nothing.

I don't need compensation . Plus Nothing has been taken from the house . I actually was looking for advice to ensure I get my deposit back whilst at same time letting him know I'm not pleased with his actions .

Stark

pilly wrote: »

To be completely filled with rage over this.

It's not even my home but I get a little pissed off reading threads like this. I despise the attitude <snip> landlords have that they can saunter in and out of people's homes without notice as they wish. If you rent a place to someone then that place is their home and they have an entitlement to privacy in their home.

uck51js9zml2yt

Did you or your wife at any time ask him why he was there?

__Alex__

Yes, it's very annoying, OP, but just let it go. You'll have no dealings with this guy after a short, few weeks. Just say you need proper notice from now until you move out and leave it at that.

Lord Trollington

Stark wrote: »

It's not even my home but I get a little pissed off reading threads like this. I despise the attitude Irish landlords have that they can saunter in and out of people's homes without notice as they wish. If you rent a place to someone then that place is their home and they have an entitlement to privacy in their home.

Your home is your home. Whether you're renting or have bought . We're saving at moment to buy but we have 2 small girls and need a bigger place . I've been here 5 years , just because I'm moving out in a few weeks doesn't give him the right to come and go as he please. He was upstairs in and around our bedrooms etc. I don't see how anyone would be ok with this unless they were told in advance .

Like he entered on 2 different occassions without permission. Both occasion he would not have been caught only my wife's returned to get something before going to work and second we had alarm set.

mickmac76

Explain to him that you don't want any more visits unless they are agreed to in advance. By saying nothing the first time he may be under the impression that you are OK with any other visits. You can lodge a complaint with the Ptrb even if the tenancy is not registered. Registration is the landlords responsibility not yours.

jimmycrackcorm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

An over reaction in my eyes would be to drive round to his place of residence when he's not there , go in and sit in his living room and wait for him to return and see how he likes it.

That's not the same thing though. You'd be breaking and entering into someone else property in comparison to having your landlord entering his own property without giving proper notice. It's not equivalent.

You're right, it isn't an overreaction, it would be beyond that, somewhere in the sphere of either psychiatric breakdown or blatant criminal psychosis.

The J Stands for Jay

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That's not the same thing though. You'd be breaking and entering into someone else property in comparison to having your landlord entering his own property without giving proper notice. It's not equivalent.

Both are illegally entering a premesis. They're exactly the same.

Lord Trollington

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That's not the same thing though. You'd be breaking and entering into someone else property in comparison to having your landlord entering his own property without giving proper notice. It's not equivalent.

You're right, it isn't an overreaction, it would be beyond that, somewhere in the sphere of either psychiatric breakdown or blatant criminal psychosis.

They're both against law and an invasion of someones privacy. It's probably the nearest comparison you'll get .

Have I or tenants no rights or ownership of sorts whilst I or they are in their property?

jimmycrackcorm

McGaggs wrote: »

Both are illegally entering a premesis. They're exactly the same.

They're not the same though. One is a breach of contract.

Lord Trollington

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

They're not the same though. One is a breach of contract.

That's true. Just one thing a poster said earlier about someone seeking compo for nothing . I don't want compensation .

But this sort of attitude is why Land Lords feel they can saunter in and out of people's homes without ramifications. If more people actually took them to task officially over it maybe then it might cause landlords to act as per their contract and obligations .

I acted and stuck to the terms of the contract, if I didn't I would have my deposit withheld or be evicted. Why if Landlords don't that someone complaining is only because they want "compo"

Jimmy Garlic

This kind of thing is why I bought and didn't rent. Irish landlords are a breed apart and will refuse to respect your right to privacy in a lot of cases. It is disturbing knowing that someone can enter your home any time you are not in it and walk around looking at your stuff, walk into your bedroom etc.

McGaggs

McGaggs wrote: »

Both are illegally entering a premesis. They're exactly the same.

No comparison. Legally (as in the eyes of criminal law) the op's LL can enter but he is prevented by contract. The op cannot legally enter the LL house and could be arrested.

4ensic15

Jasper Long Tonsil wrote: »

No comparison. Legally (as in the eyes of criminal law) the op's LL can enter but he is prevented by contract. The op cannot legally enter the LL house and could be arrested.

If the o/p came to the landlords house and found the door open, walked in and sat down he would not be committing any offence.

newacc2015

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Have I or tenants no rights or ownership of sorts whilst I or they are in their property?

You answer your own question there. Why would you have rights of ownership when you dont own it? It is a property you are renting to use. Yet you are on about him breaking laws that anyway in the statute...

The landlord says he attempted to call you about entering the property the second time he did. My suggestion is relax and ask the landlord would he mind informing you the next time he is going to enter the property. Being 'raged' about it is going to get you no where.

Lord Trollington

newacc2015 wrote: »

You answer your own question there. Why would you have rights of ownership when you dont own it? It is a property you are renting to use. Yet you are on about him breaking laws that anyway in the statute...

The landlord says he attempted to call you about entering the property the second time he did. My suggestion is relax and ask the landlord would he mind informing you the next time he is going to enter the property. Being 'raged' about it is going to get you no where.

I would imagine you are a landlord yourself and would do something like this thinking it's within your rights just because you own the property, notwithstanding the fact that you've let the property out under terms and conditions.

Did you read my text...ownership of sorts was the exact term I used . Whilst I'm renting the property the furniture in here is mine, all my personal property is in here. Money, Bank &a Credit Cards, Laptop, work files (I'm sure my work would be delighted he was in around the place) , Passports, credit card statements, bank statements, credit union books, jewellery....you name it . Just because it's his property I should dismiss him coming in here and suck it up without permission and without me knowing . You can jog the fcuk on.

If anything was missing what would happen then I wonder ....

For the record he did not attempt to call me the first time he was caught inside. He did try to call me 2nd time but didn't get me. Called to house . Knew no one was there, entered anyways set off alarm on despite the alarm going off still proceeded to go around the house for 40 mins I'm told by phone watch .

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the o/p came to the landlords house and found the door open, walked in and sat down he would not be committing any offence.

Yes he would, trespassing on private property and could be arrested for it.

amcalester

Jasper Long Tonsil wrote: »

Yes he would, trespassing on private property and could be arrested for it.

Trespassing in and of itself is not a criminal offence.

Only if it is done to cause fear to another person or if it could be inferred that a more serious offence such as burglary was about t be committed.

__Alex__

Well anyway, even if it doesn't compare to breaking into the landlord's house, it's still completely unacceptable. The OP raises an interesting point too. What if they had never realised that the landlord had let himself in, and something went missing from the house or the landlord gleaned some sensitive information about the tenants? So whilst not the same as trepassing, it is still very, very dodgy. If you know the landlord is coming, you can prepare for his/her arrival and decide to be present during the visit.

Ginger83

Either let LL know you don't want anymore visits unless you are present or i'd consider changing the lock barrels until you move, not a correct move but i'd do it anyway as LL has zero respect for his tenant.

pilly

So your initial post was that you didn't want to over react and wanted advice on what others would do?

And despite the majority saying they would have a word with the LL you tell people to jog on?

I feel you just wanted to vent your rage and for others to feed it.

The alarm was going off for 40 minutes and neither of you went home?

Jimmy Garlic

Ginger83 wrote: »

Either let LL know you don't want anymore visits unless you are present or i'd consider changing the lock barrels until you move, not a correct move but i'd do it anyway as LL has zero respect for his tenant.

That's exactly what I would do. The thought of some uninvited and unannounced bloke wandering around the house while I am out would do my head in. No damage would be done. Two minutes to change a lock barrel and all you need is a Philips screwdriver to do it.

newacc2015

You are making a lot of assumptions there, which are completely unfounded... Just because I have an alternative POV, I have to be a landlord with no respect for anyone. Wow...

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Did you read my text...ownership of sorts was the exact term I used . Whilst I'm renting the property the furniture in here is mine, all my personal property is in here. Money, Bank &a Credit Cards, Laptop, work files (I'm sure my work would be delighted he was in around the place) , Passports, credit card statements, bank statements, credit union books, jewellery....you name it . Just because it's his property I should dismiss him coming in here and suck it up without permission and without me knowing . You can jog the fcuk on.

I did read your text... I honestly didnt know what you were on about between your property and their property. If they were into property, you were going to go into their property etc. The laws the landlord broke that didn't exist etc.

If you are so protective about your property Im sure you asked that he changed the barrel when you moved in?

Lord Trollington wrote: »

For the record he did not attempt to call me the first time he was caught inside. He did try to call me 2nd time but didn't get me. Called to house . Knew no one was there, entered anyways set off alarm on despite the alarm going off still proceeded to go around the house for 40 mins I'm told by phone watch .

I have read your posts(I stated that in my previous post). You chose not to raise the fact he entered your house without permission the first time with him for some reason(you could probably have nipped this issue in the bud then). He did attempt to contact you when he entered the property the second time. So he try to ask for your permission (not that you seem to care about that though). How did phonewatch know it was the landlord exactly? I dont get that part of the story.

What advice are you looking for from this discussion? It justs seem you want to vent on this rather hear another POV. You can log a complaint with the RTB that will take months to process. Or you can discuss your concerns with your landlord since you have chosen not to do so already... That will probably solve your issue

4ensic15

Jasper Long Tonsil wrote: »

Yes he would, trespassing on private property and could be arrested for it.

Trespassing on private property is not an offence and he could not be arrested.

Parchment

Im shocked people think this is an overreaction on the part of the OP. He and his family are still tenants there.

The LL has NO right to enter like this.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

Trespassing on private property is not an offence and he could not be arrested.

It is, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/2/section/13/enacted/en/html

amcalester

Jasper Long Tonsil wrote: »

It is, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/2/section/13/enacted/en/html

You're ignoring this bit

in such a manner as causes or is likely to cause fear in another person.

That is what makes trespassing illegal, merely being on the property isn't illegal.

amcalester

amcalester wrote: »

You're ignoring this bit



That is what makes trespassing illegal, merely being on the property isn't illegal.

I'm not ignoring it, anyone in any trespassing situation will feel this is the case so it's not realistic to claim someone can trespass without consequences.

If someone is trespassing the default reaction is that they are up to no good.

amcalester

Jasper Long Tonsil wrote: »

I'm not ignoring it, anyone in any trespassing situation will feel this is the case so it's not realistic to claim someone can trespass without consequences.

If someone is trespassing the default reaction is that they are up to no good.

No it isn't. That's why trespassing is not a default criminal act.

pilly

Parchment wrote:

The LL has NO right to enter like this.

No-one said the LL had any right to enter. Simply that given the OP is moving out in a few weeks exactly what does he want people to advise apart from tell the LL not to do it again?

Parchment

pilly wrote: »

No-one said the LL had any right to enter. Simply that given the OP is moving out in a few weeks exactly what does he want people to advise apart from tell the LL not to do it again?

Its still something to take to the PRTB -they are tenants in situ now.

pilly

Parchment wrote:

Its still something to take to the PRTB -they are tenants in situ now.

And what will that gain?

Samuel T. Cogley

+1 on this not being an over reaction. It is absolutely no different to walking into your own home and finding the previous occupier sitting in the living-room.

I'd make it clear, assertively and politely, that under no circumstances is the LL to be on or in the property without at least 24 hours notice and permission. If he's unwilling to abide by that then it absolutely is a matter for arbitration by the RTB.

The LL may just be working under the delusion he's doing nothing wrong OP, there are some very odd attitudes out there to renters.

Parchment

pilly wrote: »

And what will that gain?

Make the landlord see that this is not appropriate. Why would you not do it? its the principle of the thing.Turning a blind eye to things like that is wrong.

If we were all so blase about things - nothing would get made right.

lolokeogh

no a landlord or agent can not just enter the property,and you have every right in the world to be pis*ed off about this,i had it happen in a rented house,i approached the landlord and showed him my disgust,he followed with an apology..which was ok with me,but i did not like the idea of him been in the house one bit,he had no buisness been there,end off.

"When you rent a property from a private landlord, while they own the property, it is your home. During your tenancy the landlord or their authorised agent has an obligation to ensure you have peaceful occupation of the property.

Unless there is an agreement to the contrary or it is an emergency, a landlord should not call to the property unannounced or enter the property without your permission.

Landlords and/or their authorised agents may request access at reasonable intervals to carry out repairs or inspections of the property. This must be done at a date/time agreed with you in advance. If a suggested time is not convenient an alternative should be arranged as soon as possible.

There is no legal minimum period of notice that has to be given e.g. 24 hours. It is a matter of what is agreed between both you and your landlord/agent.

In arranging for repairs to be carried out, your landlord/agent may need to get a third party specialist such as a plumber, electrician etc to visit the property and this may not always be possible to arrange within your normal schedule. Many tenants wish to be in the property to allow access but this may involve having to organise time off work, college or other commitments. Alternatively you may agree for your landlord/agent to organise access in your absence.

Approaching the end of your tenancy your landlord or agent may seek access for viewings by potential tenants or buyers if the property is being sold. Whilst the Residential Tenancies Act does not specifically mention access for viewings usually there will be a clause in a lease to this effect which should be followed. A compromise should be reached between the parties to facilitate viewings which should be arranged at reasonable intervals at a date and time agreed in advance.

Entry without permission is a breach of obligations and if this happens repeatedly you can refer a dispute against the landlord to the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB)

__Alex__

pilly wrote: »

And what will that gain?

So that the LL might think twice before pulling the same stunt with the next tenants. Plus it'd give the OP the satisfaction of proving the LL wrong. I wouldn't bother myself probably, as per my first post in the thread, but at the same time, why not do something about it? Even if it doesn't benefit the OP personally, it might help the next tenants of the house.

lolokeogh

__Alex__ wrote: »

So that the LL might think twice before pulling the same stunt with the next tenants. Plus it'd give the OP the satisfaction of proving the LL wrong. I wouldn't bother myself probably, as per my first post in the thread, but at the same time, why not do something about it? Even if it doesn't benefit the OP personally, it might help the next tenants of the house.

agreed

Pkiernan

Parchment wrote: »

Its still something to take to the PRTB -they are tenants in situ now.

That is hilarious.
Have a think about what you're posting.
The guy is moving out in a few weeks. RTB will take about 3 months before they even look at it.

As for being completely filled with rage....wow.

pilly

Pkiernan wrote: »

That is hilarious.
Have a think about what you're posting.
The guy is moving out in a few weeks. RTB will take about 3 months before they even look at it.

As for being completely filled with rage....wow.

Exactly my thoughts, and that of any sane person.

Varik

__Alex__ wrote: »

So that the LL might think twice before pulling the same stunt with the next tenants. Plus it'd give the OP the satisfaction of proving the LL wrong. I wouldn't bother myself probably, as per my first post in the thread, but at the same time, why not do something about it? Even if it doesn't benefit the OP personally, it might help the next tenants of the house.

It'd be complete madness to make an issue out of this in his situation.

He said the landlords know each other, they're entering a new tenancy where they've not signed anything yet and you've got few rights as of now in the new place.

steddyeddy

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

This kind of thing is why I bought and didn't rent. Irish landlords are a breed apart and will refuse to respect your right to privacy in a lot of cases. It is disturbing knowing that someone can enter your home any time you are not in it and walk around looking at your stuff, walk into your bedroom etc.

Irish landlords have major problems with respecting a tenant's privacy relative to those in the UK.

__Alex__

Varik wrote: »

It'd be complete madness to make an issue out of this in his situation.

He said the landlords know each other, they're entering a new tenancy where they've not signed anything yet and you've got few rights as of now in the new place.

Maybe so but if the new landlord took issue with it, they're well rid. If he didn't see their point of view, then if I was them, I'd be concerned that he also thinks it's OK to let himself in whenever he wants. The rentals market is tough at the moment, but not that tough. Everyone I know who has looked for accommodation in pressured areas in the last year has got sorted quickly. So, if I was the OP and the new LL decided against taking me on a tenant on the basis on making a complaint against the old landlord, I'd be thinking "Screw him!".