FO won't sign off

Free-2-Flow

So 9 weeks ago I applied for my .308 deer rifle, I submitted all my paperwork and my land permission of 200 acres.
I called the NPWS and said I was interested in getting a permit, they said send it in the end of February so we can issue you one for 2017/2018.
Rang the FO today to see how the application was progressing.
He said he's not issuing it until I can provide a deer hunting permit.
I explained I'll be applying for 2017/18 and the NPWS won't be issuing them until August.
His reply was "Talk to you then"
Why does this country need to be so complicated with no Standardisation across the board? I wanted to bring it to Midlands in the meantime as a guest as I have a few friends down there.

And if he knew this 9 weeks ago why did he wait 9 weeks to tell me, only after I contacted him?

It's not like it's a 1st time application, I've had 6 Guns over the last 10 years.

tac foley

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

I explained I'll be applying for 2017/18 and the NPWS won't be issuing them until August.
His reply was "Talk to you then"

...and then these people wonder why we [in general] have such suspicion and disdain for them. You ask a civil question and do everything in accordance with the law, and its representative craps in your hat.

VERY helpful.

Not.

They seem to have overlooked a small but important point - they are ALL public servants.

tac

Free-2-Flow

tac foley wrote:

They seem to have overlooked a small but important point - they are ALL public servants.

I don't agree with the Gardai having anything to do with the issuing of Firearms certificates.

It should be a completely independent unit of the Government.

Each Superintendent had his own set of Rules and they answer to no one.

tac foley

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

I don't agree with the Gardai having anything to do with the issuing of Firearms certificates.

It should be a completely independent unit of the Government.

Each Superintendent had his own set of Rules and they answer to no one.

Permit me to make a slight correction to your post - 'Each Superintendent HAS his own set of Rules and they answer to no one.'

As we've seen here over the years, some are helpful, almost embarrassingly so, some are just doing the job correctly by applying the current rules as they are intended to be applied - fairly.

But it seems that many have their own agenda - that of substantially reducing the numbers of legally-held firearms in their patch - and using every trick in the book to achieve it. More often than not, this results in costly court appearances, where the judge, who deals in justice and the law rather than opinion and bias, sees their machinations for what they are, and kicks their sorry a$$es out of the courtroom door.

I'd like to think that there is a solution to your ongoing problem with this public servant, but right now I can't think what it might be.

tac

Free-2-Flow

tac foley wrote:

They seem to have overlooked a small but important point - they are ALL public servants.

tac foley wrote:

I'd like to think that there is a solution to your ongoing problem with this public servant, but right now I can't think what it might be.

Without upsetting anyone, I think my solution is to come back to him with a deer hunting permit as he requested.

Luckysasha

What about your .308 in the meantime. Is it sitting in an RFD with a deposit on it. Will it still be there in 9 months

Chiparus

If you don't get the license within 3 months is it not considered a refusal?

Free-2-Flow

Luckysasha wrote:

What about your .308 in the meantime. Is it sitting in an RFD with a deposit on it. Will it still be there in 9 months

Chiparus wrote:

If you don't get the license within 3 months is it not considered a refusal?

It's sitting with my dealer until further notice.

I have no idea

RossiFan08

When you apply for the deer license ask the NPWS to issue you a letter explaining that you have been granted the license but will no receive it until August. This will then allow you to get the license before August.

Free-2-Flow

RossiFan08 wrote:

When you apply for the deer license ask the NPWS to issue you a letter explaining that you have been granted the license but will no receive it until August. This will then allow you to get the license before August.

My thoughts exactly, Forms are to be sent in the morning

RossiFan08

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

My thoughts exactly, Forms are to be sent in the morning

I would recommend only sending in 100 arces too. The less there is the less they have to process. Unless its all the one farm

Free-2-Flow

RossiFan08 wrote:

I would recommend only sending in 100 arces too. The less there is the less they have to process. Unless its all the one farm

I have 2 permissions, one for 60 acres and the other for 75, maybe if they process it in the next 10 days I'll be issued a 2016 licence haha

cookimonster

Ask the dept to process your application as soon as possible, by that I mean now and not the usual processing time period. Your, anyone's, deer hunting license is valid until August of each year regardless of the season.
Explain that you will want the firearm prior to the following season for familiarity and practice. You could also say that the land owners will be applying for a section 42 and would be nominating yourself as the 'nominated stalker', this is up to you to try this tactic. Explain to them your situation and the time delay in the processing of the firearms paperwork and it is very likely that even when you receive you hunting license you could miss the 17-18 season due to the bureaucracy.
Have you approached your local NPWS office?, I say this because anything that goes to Dublin ends back up in the local office for assessing. Dublin is grand and I've had little to no bother with them, it's first time applications that seem to be a sticking point these days. I know, 100%, of a lad who processes all the section 42's through the local offices in relation to the farms he shoots for. This tactic has produced a faster turn around especially for new applications. This tactic may or may not work for you.

Cass

I'm not excusing the attitude you were shown, but to get any firearms license you must show good reason for wanting it. For a 308 that is membership of a range and/or deer license which by it's nature shows suitable land and use for the rifle.

If you applied without showing either of these the chances, as you've found out, of getting refused or delayed are very high. As it stands you have four options:

1. Wait the 5.5 months until the new licenses are issued (they are sent out in early August) and then submit your license to the FO to complete the application.
2. Apply now to the NPWS for a license for this year which runs until August 31st. Just because the "normal" deer are not in season does not negate your ability to apply.
3. Ask the NPWS to issue you a letter of intent. They can issue a letter to say that they have checked out the land and other details and come August they will issue you with a deer license for the new season.
4. Join a range.

Free-2-Flow

Cass wrote:

I'm not excusing the attitude you were shown, but to get any firearms license you must show good reason for wanting it. For a 308 that is membership of a range and/or deer license which by it's nature shows suitable land and use for the rifle.

I believe I showed good reason, I sent in all my paperwork including my deer hunting permit application and attached my land permissions, I already have 2 rifles licensed with him, I'm already in a range (Rimfire) and I have a European firearms pass, I've been out of the country 6 times, I wouldn't consider myself any oul Joe Soap applying for his 1st rifle, I have a solid history with them.

PSXDupe

I must be blessed with my FO, once the application is submitted within a week or so she'll ring me and let me know she has it and if there is any issue with it at all. She'll even tell me if there is a lot of applications being processed and if there maybe a delay for any reason.

Extremely helpful, but then again I always have a cover letter going into great detail as why I need it, security, medical etc,etc. Rarely does she have a question for me or an issue.

cookimonster

'Good Reason" therefore will need to be demonstrated for each firearm to be held.

Reasonable inquiries may include a request for written authorities where possible, verification of the likelihood of the quarry species being present; the suitability of land for the firearms requested commensurate with the applicant's experience. Other matters to consider could be their authority to shoot on the land and, in the case of target shooters, verification of authorised rifle, pistol club or shooting range membership. Membership of a game shooting club may also be a consideration. These are examples of the additional information that issuing persons may request from the applicant'..

The above is taken from the commissioners guidelines and with the exception of a "firearms safety certificate" all applications are treated as new, even renewals could be argued as new applications in the event of your circumstances or information changing from your previous submission. IMO this would point to the possession of or an official letter in relation to the issuing of a deer license to you. All other points, previous ownership, history etc are mute.

As in the post from PSXDupe, I have pre-empted my last two applications with a visit and a full disclosure of paper work. Now I know lads here will say you don't have to do that and there are other courses of redress, but I can neither afford nor really care fore a trip to court. So for me it was easier to approach the Guards with a tentative enquiry about such and such firearms and not jump in feet first and have a refusal for the record.
This has worked on 3 occasions - my first deer legal centre fire, an overseas purchase and within the last 23 days a secound deer legal centre fire. Whether or not this tactic helped in my applications I don't really care, the guns are in my safe and the latest acquisition is ready to be collected.

I don't mean preach but just giving you an insight to how I've delt with a authority that is more and more inconsistent and ill informed.

Free-2-Flow

I suppose there is nothing left to do other than try to obtain a deer hunting permit and present it to him.

clivej

Give the NPWS office a phone call to sort it out a little better

Free-2-Flow

clivej wrote:

Give the NPWS office a phone call to sort it out a little better

I posted off my paperwork today, I'll give them a week or so before I ring them, If I had of known it would cause toes hassle I'd have applied for a deer hunting permit before Christmas rather than waiting until the new season

BattleCorp

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

Rang the FO today to see how the application was progressing.
He said he's not issuing it until I can provide a deer hunting permit.
I explained I'll be applying for 2017/18 and the NPWS won't be issuing them until August.
His reply was "Talk to you then"

Just to be clear, is it the FO refusing to process your application or is it the Superintendent who is refusing to grant the licence?

Forgive me if I'm mistaken but if it is the FO refusing to process your application, I believe that they are going beyond their remit. FO's don't grant or refuse licences. I was under the belief that they have to process all applications. It is the Superintendent who gets to make the decision on the application, not the FO.

Free-2-Flow

BattleCorp wrote:

Just to be clear, is it the FO refusing to process your application or is it the Superintendent who is refusing to grant the licence?

It's the Super, that's what he said anyway

BattleCorp

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

It's the Super, that's what he said anyway

I'd be willing to bet that it didn't get within an asses roar of the Super. If it did and he didn't sign it, isn't that a refusal? You should ring the District Office, play dumb and ask what the status of your application is. Be interesting to see if they received it or if you have a refusal on your record. Worth a phone call at least.

clivej

Way back when i applied for my Sako 75 .308 on April 1st it took 7 + months to get a license. First was the same as you, No deer license then no gun license.
Like you I then applied for the deer license. I can't remember when that came, it must have been around early in August. I got my gun license in October.

I must also add that in the same time there was 3 different Superintendents in the local station so that may have held things up as well.

I would NOW ring up the NPWS just to say the way things are, and to say you want your deer license for this season not next years. I would have done this but at the time I was a little green about how things go with all the firearms stuff (but not now lol).

Then when you get this years deer license you should apply for next years deer license. So that you will have next years license in August, apply for that around April or May, if you have this years license got.

Hope that's helps a little

I already have my farm land permission letter signed off ready to submit next month.

Free-2-Flow

BattleCorp wrote:

I'd be willing to bet that it didn't get within an asses roar of the Super. If it did and he didn't sign it, isn't that a refusal? You should ring the District Office, play dumb and ask what the status of your application is. Be interesting to see if they received it or if you have a refusal on your record. Worth a phone call at least.

It's not a refusal as such, but rather terms and conditions apply

viper123

This is no different to what happened to me when I got my first rifle on a deer licence. I was told until I had a licence in my hand I had no good reason to have the firearm, even though I did have a cover letter stating the permit was approved by NPWS. Come 1st of august I presented my deer permit and licence was in the post the next day.
Key question here imo is whether they are accepting your application pending receipt of a deer permit or if they are not even considering it until they see the permit.

Free-2-Flow

viper123 wrote:

This is no different to what happened to me when I got my first rifle on a deer licence. I was told until I had a licence in my hand I had no good reason to have the firearm, even though I did have a cover letter stating the permit was approved by NPWS. Come 1st of august I presented my deer permit and licence was in the post the next day. Key question here imo is whether they are accepting your application pending receipt of a deer permit or if they are not even considering it until they see the permit.

I dread this will happen to me, I'd like to set the rifle up and familiarise myself with it 1st

Cass

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

I believe I showed good reason, I sent in all my paperwork including my deer hunting permit application and attached my land permissions, I already have 2 rifles licensed with him, I'm already in a range (Rimfire) and I have a European firearms pass, I've been out of the country 6 times, I wouldn't consider myself any oul Joe Soap applying for his 1st rifle, I have a solid history with them.

Don't take offence to what i said. I'm sure you've enugh experience to know how things work. I'm simply laying out what would be deemed as sufficiently good reason.

A deer hunting application is not a license to hunt no more than an FCA1 is a firearm license but just an application.. So in essence you have said you want or intend to shoot deer, but until you have the deer license you do not have authorisation to do it.

So if he judged it on the land permissions only, as you've no deer license, then the case could be argued that you don't need a deer calibre, but a varmint calibre.

I recently done a substitution from one 308 to another and i had to submit my deer license for this year. My FO rang me to ask me to e-mail it to her so as not to delay the sub. Point being even though i have the 308 license and have already shown range membership and deer license to get the original 308 license i still had to show it again to verify my good reason.

The range membership would work, but may not be enough on its own for what you want. Regardless of the calibre rating of the range if you put down range membership and (deer) hunting on your FCA1 you need to show membership details to the range and any necessary licenses for hunting. If you cannot produce the license for hunting then the firearms license could be issued, under the condition, it be used for target shooting only. IOW pointless to you.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Just to be clear, is it the FO refusing to process your application or is it the Superintendent who is refusing to grant the licence?

The Super is the issuing person, but the FO is the filter between the general public and the Super. IOW the FO makes sure everything is in place and the Super then decides to issue or not.

BattleCorp wrote: »

You should ring the District Office, play dumb and ask what the status of your application is. Be interesting to see if they received it or if you have a refusal on your record. Worth a phone call at least.

Possibly, but anytime i ring i'm directed to my FO and if she is not available it's a "call back later" as no one else deals with it. IOW you could end up talking with the very person you're trying to bypass.

Free-2-Flow

Cass wrote:

Possibly, but anytime i ring i'm directed to my FO and if she is not available it's a "call back later" as no one else deals with it. IOW you could end up talking with the very person you're trying to bypass.

I've been calling my FO for days, seems the FO section of his job is part time, he's never there, it's always leave your name and number.

Sparks

NPWS won't be issuing them until August.
His reply was "Talk to you then"

I'd wonder if he's aware that that's an official refusal, given that the three month mandatory time limit expiring is legally a refusal and notification?
It might be useful to clarify that with him (and if he is aware, to get the reason in writing).
It'd also be useful to talk to your NGB about it...

Free-2-Flow

Sparks wrote:

I'd wonder if he's aware that that's an official refusal, given that the three month mandatory time limit expiring is legally a refusal and notification? It might be useful to clarify that with him (and if he is aware, to get the reason in writing). It'd also be useful to talk to your NGB about it...

I don't imagine he's aware of much, Had a face to face with him a few years back.
He referred to centrefire rifles as "the ones with the bolt thingy "?

Don't want to upset too many people, maybe I'll just wait until August, it won't be a refusal if I cancel the process myself.

Sparks

I'd talk to your NGB first free-2-flow, see if they can talk to the FPU about it. But yeah, I'd withdraw the application if he's not going to budge rather than have the expiry limit run out and have a refusal on my record for the next incorrectly trained official I encounter to have fun asking about.

Free-2-Flow

Sparks wrote:

I'd talk to your NGB first free-2-flow, see if they can talk to the FPU about it. But yeah, I'd withdraw the application if he's not going to budge rather than have the expiry limit run out and have a refusal on my record for the next incorrectly trained official I encounter to have fun asking about.

Have never went that road before, NGB and in National Governing Body?

Captainaxiom

Remember it's only classed as a refusal if it's actually imputed on the system and the 90days pass. If it's sitting on a desk waiting to be imputed the 90 day clock hasn't even started.
Just a tiny flaw in the current system.

Sparks

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

Have never went that road before, NGB and in National Governing Body?

Yes. So NARGC for you maybe? Or possibly WDAI?

Sparks

Captainaxiom wrote: »

Remember it's only classed as a refusal if it's actually imputed on the system and the 90days pass. If it's sitting on a desk waiting to be imputed the 90 day clock hasn't even started.
Just a tiny flaw in the current system.

That's kindof a small fiction we've been going along with to be honest.
The clock *actually* starts ticking when you hand over the signed and dated application form.
In cases where the Super's left it go long because of workload and is going to grant, there's never been a huge point in going to court over it (what would the court do, order him to grant what he's willing to grant already?).

Captainaxiom

Sparks wrote: »

That's kindof a small fiction we've been going along with to be honest.
The clock *actually* starts ticking when you hand over the signed and dated application form.
In cases where the Super's left it go long because of workload and is going to grant, there's never been a huge point in going to court over it (what would the court do, order him to grant what he's willing to grant already?).

Having had experience of the court route it goes off the date when entered on the Garda system. Sitting in your local stations "to do tray" doesn't count.
If it was the date handed in how do you prove it when no receipt is given. You could also back date the signature effectively shortening the 90 day period.

Now if you sent it via registered post I'm sure you could argue that point.

Not arguing here just highlighting ONE of the many flaws in the system that needs addressing. I believe there should be a receipt section on the form which is signed and stamped when you submit the application much like the system they use for the age card applications.

Sparks

how do you prove it when no receipt is given

If I'm sending mine in by post rather than meeting the FO, I do it by registered post. And if I'm meeting the FO, I have an appointment and keep note of the date.
I've never had a major problem with FCA1s (though I've had some fun stories about europasses), but you hear enough horror stories, you start to take notes...

Free-2-Flow

So I was on to him again and mentioned about my expiry date and will it be classed as a refusal and he was very quick to say "No, No, No".

He said bring me the letter that you receive from the NPWS stating you have applied and then we will talk.

Fair enough.

BattleCorp

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

So I was on to him again and mentioned about my expiry date and will it be classed as a refusal and he was very quick to say "No, No, No".

He said bring me the letter that you receive from the NPWS stating you have applied and then we will talk.

Fair enough.

Sounds more like the FO not processing your application to be honest.

Free-2-Flow

BattleCorp wrote:

Sounds more like the FO not processing your application to be honest.

The truth of it is that he is not processing my license until I have a current Deer hunting permit in hand.

viper123

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

The truth of it is that he is not processing my license until I have a current Deer hunting permit in hand.

That I would have a problem with. There is no reason why they cant approve in principle pending receipt of deer permit. What above means is come August you're then waiting three months or so for the possibility of a refusal.