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Proper bus lanes

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    #32
    artemis268
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭artemis268


    Or build totally separate motorways and roads just for buses that runs parallel to cars and underground bus lanes that run throughout the city like they do in Australia. That'll solve the congestion around trinity college at least.


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    #33
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Bray Head wrote: »
    Some thought needs to be given to the policy of giving taxis unlimited, cost-free access to bus lanes too.

    My point is about what the rules should be, not what they currently are.

    Road space is finite and scarce. I can see merit in reserving space for large vehicles carrying dozens of people (buses). Most taxis carry a single passenger, very few carry the maximum.

    Taxi drivers (and their passengers) should really pay an appropriate price for the privilege of avoiding traffic. This would free up space for buses which are mass transit in a way that taxis can never be.


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    #34
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,623 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a slightly left-field question - how far would an average dublin bus travel in an average day?


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    #35
    Seaswimmer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭Seaswimmer


    Bray Head wrote: »
    My point is about what the rules should be, not what they currently are.

    Road space is finite and scarce. I can see merit in reserving space for large vehicles carrying dozens of people (buses). Most taxis carry a single passenger, very few carry the maximum.

    Taxi drivers (and their passengers) should really pay an appropriate price for the privilege of avoiding traffic. This would free up space for buses which are mass transit in a way that taxis can never be.

    Interesting point. I use that bus lane on the bike coming home in the evenings and I observe it while stopped at the lights at Collins Ave in the mornings. When the normal car traffic gets to the point at the end of the cones where it indicates left to go down Collins Ave it is mostly a stream of taxis in the bus lane who are stopping them going left into the lane. There are multiples of taxis for every bus on that route as they all head back into town from the airport


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    #36
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    tabbey wrote: »

    Ordinary people should be encouraged to walk short distances instead, a little exercise would reduce obesity and type 2 diabetes, saving the exchequer money in every way.
    Clogged streets and clogged arteries are both bad for quality of life.

    We could setup one of the best cycle sharing schemes in the world and then refuse to fund it's expansion. :rolleyes:


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    #37
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,623 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's a topic which really bugs me. why should i be allowed in the bus lane if i'm the only passenger in a taxi, and private cars with four passengers cannot use it? they're making far more efficient use of the roads.


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    #38
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    We could setup one of the best cycle sharing schemes in the world and then refuse to fund it's expansion. :rolleyes:

    Sure Kilkenny doesn't have a bike scheme? Why does Dublin have to get everything? :rolleyes:

    It is insane we find €300m to maintain rural roads every year, yet we can't find tens of million one year to expand one of the most successful bike schemes in the World. Allowing Dublin to keep 100% of their LPT would go a long way to improving transport in Dublin.

    The Government needs to make owning a car more expensive, that the incentive to use it is reduced. I know there is the whole 'I live in rural Ireland and have to drive everywhere argument'. If owning a car was so expensive for the last 15 years we might have had a ton of McMansions built as it was cheap to commute.

    But even within Dublin, DCC forces some developments in the middle of the city to have a carspace. Who in the IFSC wants to drive around the IFSC? No one, but planners think differently


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    #39
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,819 ✭✭✭Alkers


    artemis268 wrote: »
    Or build totally separate motorways and roads just for buses that runs parallel to cars and underground bus lanes that run throughout the city like they do in Australia. That'll solve the congestion around trinity college at least.

    BRT is out to tender for designer for two seperate routes atm - swords to city centre and blanch to ucd:

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/


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    #40
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    StreetLight wrote: »
    The full benefit of which was almost immediately scuppered by the placing of yet more bus stops!

    Bull****! I use this route almost every day and even with the one new extra stop, it is still WAY faster then it use to be. As in at least 10 minutes if not more off my commute into town.

    To be honest, what I've seen on this road really drove home the point to me that the idea there are too many bus stops is a complete red herring. Obviously they have an impact, but the impact is a very small compared to the other measures.

    What I've seen on this route and elsewhere is that REAL bus priority measures, like this road widening, these bollards to keep cars out and the bus gate in town are what have a real massive impact on bus journey times and not just drawing lines on a road.

    Probably the second priority is reducing dwell time at the stops, by getting rid of cash and driver interaction with flat fares, etc. and the use of multiple doors.

    Bus stops are a red herring, as people actually need to get on the bus! Obviously the bus would fly into town if their were no stops, but that would sort of defeat the purpose of a bus! Sure there maybe a few places where there are two stops closer together then needed, but I really don't think there are as many of these as people seem to think and it wouldn't be such a big deal if the dwell times were so damn slow.


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    #41
    StreetLight
    Registered Users Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    bk wrote: »
    Bull****!

    Hysterical much? Read what I said again and pay attention to the word in bold:

    "The full benefit of which was almost immediately scuppered by the placing of yet more bus stops!"

    This city needs less bus stops, not more.


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    #42
    heroics
    Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭heroics


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    Sure Kilkenny doesn't have a bike scheme? Why does Dublin have to get everything? :rolleyes:

    It is insane we find €300m to maintain rural roads every year, yet we can't find tens of million one year to expand one of the most successful bike schemes in the World. Allowing Dublin to keep 100% of their LPT would go a long way to improving transport in Dublin.

    The Government needs to make owning a car more expensive, that the incentive to use it is reduced. I know there is the whole 'I live in rural Ireland and have to drive everywhere argument'. If owning a car was so expensive for the last 15 years we might have had a ton of McMansions built as it was cheap to commute.

    But even within Dublin, DCC forces some developments in the middle of the city to have a carspace. Who in the IFSC wants to drive around the IFSC? No one, but planners think differently

    Owning a car is already expensive. Also just because someone lives in the IFSC does not mean they want to spend there whole life/day in the IFSC. Maybe they want to go other places that they need a car. Planners should include some sort of provision for car parking in developments. Just because you don't want a car does not mean everyone is the same.

    What do you mean by this " If owning a car was so expensive for the last 15 years we might have had a ton of McMansions built as it was cheap to commute."?


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    #43
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    bk wrote: »
    To be honest, what I've seen on this road really drove home the point to me that the idea there are too many bus stops is a complete red herring. Obviously they have an impact, but the impact is a very small compared to the other measures.

    Only the ideologues on this forum maintain that there are too many bus stops in Dublin. Nowhere else, either in the form of public feedback, policy experts or public representatives maintain this to be an issue. It's a non issue.


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    #44
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    heroics wrote: »
    Planners should include some sort of provision for car parking in developments. Just because you don't want a car does not mean everyone is the same.

    On the other hand, when people own a car and have paid all the fixed costs associated with having one, they're more likely to drive rather than consider public transport. Likewise, when lots of people own a car, they're more likely to demand that politicians build infrastructure to support that. Look at the objections every time there's a plan to change a speed limit, paint a bus lane, build a bus gate or a tram line.


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    #45
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    StreetLight wrote: »
    Hysterical much? Read what I said again and pay attention to the word in bold:

    "The full benefit of which was almost immediately scuppered by the placing of yet more bus stops!"

    This city needs less bus stops, not more.

    Honestly I don't see a few less bus stops making any difference at all.

    Here is what will make a difference in order of priority, from making most difference to less:

    1) More "hard" bus priority measures. Similar to the ones mentioned on this thread:
    - Pinch points widened
    - Bus lanes that cars physically can't access
    - More bus gates
    - Dedicated public transport only routes, like planned for along the quays
    - Proper enforcement of all other bus lanes. (Footage from DB cameras of bus lane violations handed over to the Gardai for fixed penalty notices).
    - Proper, high quality, dedicated bike lanes so cyclists don't have to mingle with massive buses.
    - Ban taxis from Bus lanes.

    2) Genuine express services that skip lots of bus stops. For instance buses to and from Swords skipping all stops inside the M50 and/or use the port tunnel. Or for instance, straightening the 16 route to the airport so that it heads straight along this motorway, rather then snaking slowly through Beaumont.

    3) Reduce dwell time:
    - get rid of cash
    - zero driver interaction, flat fare tag-on
    - Use rear doors at every stop for exit
    - New Hybrid Electric or fully Electric buses

    This is an interesting one that I haven't seen mentioned before. An issue that new buses have is that they must meet the latest EU energy standards. That means they are far less polluting and use less fuel (also good for company finance as fuel is the second biggest running cost after wages). The downside however is that this newer buses have pretty terrible initial acceleration from stopped. Obviously that is bad for a city bus service.

    A solution to this problem is too move to hybrid and fully electric buses. Electric motors have fantastic torque and thus great initial acceleration, which would greatly help city type bus services.

    Compared to all of the above, removing a few bus stops here or there will make little or no difference.

    Focus on what has the greatest impact first, don't get distracted by things that are hard to do and have little positive impact.


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    #46
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    The Government needs to make owning a car more expensive, that the incentive to use it is reduced.

    No they shouldn't. They perhaps should make it more expensive to use it in certain areas, but they shouldn't make the ownership of a car more expensive.


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    #47
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Only the ideologues on this forum maintain that there are too many bus stops in Dublin. Nowhere else, either in the form of public feedback, policy experts or public representatives maintain this to be an issue. It's a non issue.

    It's far from a non-issue on some routes and it's not not suitable for buses as a means of even semi-mass transport.

    I've measured it out before -- the Swords route could support centre of the road BRT-style bus lanes with staggered bus stops (OR Luas with staggered stop) and still have space for footpaths, cycle paths and at least a single general traffic lane in each direction.


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    #48
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    How much will this joke from swords to the city centre cost? Maybe going ahead with metro north to save a few euro on metro north inferior, then I hear of this, what the hell will this joke "solution" cost? you can already get from swords to docklands and city centre by bus through the port tunnel, very quickly...

    Im looking on google satellite view, and I know from first hand experience that junction is ridilulous. Why dont they cpo some of the massive church car park?


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    #49
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,697 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Isambard wrote: »
    the ultimate aim for any City would be more public transport, less cars.

    As long as that public transport wasn't noisy diesel buses.
    Can you imagine how pleasant the city centre would be if the bus fleet was electrified?


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    #50
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    josip wrote: »
    As long as that public transport wasn't noisy diesel buses.
    Can you imagine how pleasant the city centre would be if the bus fleet was electrified?

    Yes, it would be much more preferable and it will eventually happen. All new buses in London are now at least hybrid and they are also starting to bring in fully electric buses.

    It will probably happen here too eventually. Electric buses while more expensive up front, have much cheaper fuel running costs and eventually they pay for themselves.

    The issue here is that new buses are bought and owned by the NTA, but Dublin Bus pays for the fuel. So if they switch to EV buses, the NTA bears the increased up front cost, but doesn't benefit from the reduced fuel cost, DB does! They will need to fix that first, from the recent NTA article it is clear they are working on it.


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    #51
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    there is a mention here of diesel v electric. electric buses would be sooooo much more pleasant to take...


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    #52
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    bk wrote: »
    Bull****! I use this route almost every day and even with the one new extra stop, it is still WAY faster then it use to be. As in at least 10 minutes if not more off my commute into town.

    To be honest, what I've seen on this road really drove home the point to me that the idea there are too many bus stops is a complete red herring. Obviously they have an impact, but the impact is a very small compared to the other measures.

    What I've seen on this route and elsewhere is that REAL bus priority measures, like this road widening, these bollards to keep cars out and the bus gate in town are what have a real massive impact on bus journey times and not just drawing lines on a road.

    Probably the second priority is reducing dwell time at the stops, by getting rid of cash and driver interaction with flat fares, etc. and the use of multiple doors.

    Bus stops are a red herring, as people actually need to get on the bus! Obviously the bus would fly into town if their were no stops, but that would sort of defeat the purpose of a bus! Sure there maybe a few places where there are two stops closer together then needed, but I really don't think there are as many of these as people seem to think and it wouldn't be such a big deal if the dwell times were so damn slow.

    That would require building buses with more than two exits.


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    #53
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    That would require building buses with more than two exits.

    Well first of all the word "multiple" can mean just two.

    However the plan for the BRT routes, 3 to 4 doors, enter/exit through any door, same as how the Luas works and how almost all buses in Poland, Germany, etc. work.

    Though just making use of the second door on Dublin Bus at every stop would be a good, easy start.


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    #54
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    bk wrote: »
    Well first of all the word "multiple" can mean just two.

    However the plan for the BRT routes, 3 to 4 doors, enter/exit through any door, same as how the Luas works and how almost all buses in Poland, Germany, etc. work.

    Though just making use of the second door on Dublin Bus at every stop would be a good, easy start.

    Not to completly derail the thread but there are two bus drivers on my route that use the centre doors at all.

    Would love if they introduced disciplinary procedures to force the use of centre doors.


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    #55
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    heroics wrote: »
    Owning a car is already expensive. Also just because someone lives in the IFSC does not mean they want to spend there whole life/day in the IFSC. Maybe they want to go other places that they need a car. Planners should include some sort of provision for car parking in developments. Just because you don't want a car does not mean everyone is the same.

    Yes owning a car is somewhat expensive, but the negative externalities it places on society is not covered by the taxes and fuel duties on owning a car. The fact you can go to inner suburbs of Dublin and find 2/3 cars outside every house yet a bus ride into the city is 20 mins and a fraction of owning a car. Obviously owning a car is not expensive enough to stop these people owning car.

    Have you driven around the IFSC? It is a nightmare to drive around and it is completely surrounded by congestion. So planners should endorse car ownership in the centre of the city in an area surrounded by excellent public transport? IMO if you want to own a car in the centre of the city, you should pay a €10k levy to DCC and a €1k per year for deciding to own a car in an area that you dont really need it at all. It is a luxury and tax it accordingly.

    If you give them a free space (as you have suggested planners have forced developers to build them), you will probably own a car. The residents of Phisboro have the lowest car ownership rates in Ireland and IMO it is down to the fact there is hardly anywhere in Phisboro to park a car.

    Policy makers tend to start passing on the negative externalities of car ownership onto users to a greater extent.


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    #56
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    You might be able to get into town in twenty, with no traffic. The issue emerges as soon as you want to get anywhere else. Until mn and du in particular, but also luas extensions in place and metro west, there are just too many issues for people to start ditching their cars...


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    #57
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    there are just too many issues for people to start ditching their cars...

    And yet the residents of Phisboro without the Luas extension or any decent rail connections are able to get by without cars...

    If there is a car in your driveway, you will use it. If you live in Phisboro where you have no driveway or no one street parking, you get on with life. Likewise if you live in an apartment block with no car space you get on with it.

    There is car sharing, renting a car etc. A lot of people who own a car in Dublin City dont need it. A lot of younger people are no longer getting licenses and are thriving. IMO a lot of people who have a car over thirty have it as a status symbol rather than a necessity. There is this notion in Ireland, if you are over 21 without a license you are a failure.

    If people had to pay a lot more for owning a car I feel these 'too many issues' would no longer be issues as the cons of owning a car would outweigh the pros


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    #58
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,365 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    josip wrote: »
    As long as that public transport wasn't noisy diesel buses.
    Can you imagine how pleasant the city centre would be if the bus fleet was electrified?

    With unsightly over cables or expensive battery powered?


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    #59
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    ted1 wrote: »
    With unsightly over cables or expensive battery powered?

    Batteries are cheaper than fuel and maintenance in the long run.

    It's the whole appeal of electric.


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    #60
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    eeguy wrote: »
    Batteries are cheaper than fuel and maintenance in the long run.

    It's the whole appeal of electric.

    source?


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    #61
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,426 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    eeguy wrote: »
    Batteries are cheaper than fuel and maintenance in the long run.

    It's the whole appeal of electric.

    Trolley buses work off the grid so no heavy batteries to cart around. High torque is a given for electric motors, so rapid acceleration from stationary - it would suit some routes but not most. The BRT routes would be better as trolley buses rather than diesels or even hybrids.


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