Proper bus lanes

markpb

DCC Traffic tweeted recently that the much-abused bus lane on the N1/Swords road inbound (near Whitehall church) has been upgraded so that it is now separated from the other lanes by bollards. They start on the ramp from the flyover and end about 20m before the junction, with a gap to allow entry into the church car park.

https://twitter.com/dcctraffic/status/828530457625100288

As someone who spent a long time each day sitting on buses stuck in a traffic jam full of inconsiderate jerks, I'm delighted by this move and I hope it's extended to include lots of other bus lanes around the city. I don't live on that side of the city any more and I rarely take the bus any more but I'm 100% behind this.

Unfortunately, AGS still had to make an appearance today to stop people driving in the bus lane.

https://twitter.com/gardatraffic/status/829305290151571457

magicbastarder

i'm sure there would be legal issues with ownership of data, chain of evidence, etc., but surely it's in dublin bus's interests to pass dashcam footage of people abusing bus lanes to the gardai?

Dravokivich

I think it's a bit embarrassing that the road has to be segregated like this. If there's an obstruction there are limited alternatives.

Does it take much force to flex those bollards down if they need to be driven over?

eeguy

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think it's a bit embarrassing that the road has to be segregated like this. If there's an obstruction there are limited alternatives.

Does it take much force to flex those bollards down if they need to be driven over?

Nope, they bend right over. Might scratch the paint tho.

LeinsterDub

Was there on Tuesday evening . People where still abusing the bus lane by entering in the gaps left to maintain local access .

AdrianII

was there this morning at 9:10am traffic backed up to near the tunnel.
This is going to be a disaster for people who use this road at peak times.

bk

AdrianII wrote: »

was there this morning at 9:10am traffic backed up to near the tunnel.
This is going to be a disaster for people who use this road at peak times.

But fantastic news for the much greater number of people who use this road by bus. Greater good and all that.

Isambard

AdrianII wrote: »

was there this morning at 9:10am traffic backed up to near the tunnel.
This is going to be a disaster for people who use this road at peak times.

Well that goes to show how much the Law was being broken and how much the measures were necessary. Perhaps a few more people will abandon the car and catch the bus.

markpb

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think it's a bit embarrassing that the road has to be segregated like this.

Paris went for the more expensive, more aesthetically pleasing but less flexible approach. They've had bus lanes like this for over a decade.

GLaDOS

I used to live beside the flyover and would sometimes get the bus up to Drumcondra station to get the train in the morning. Bus would usually take about 20 min, half of that would easily be spent on that stretch of road, barely moving. Once you got past Collin's Ave you were flying.

AngryLips

markpb wrote: »

Paris went for the more expensive, more aesthetically pleasing but less flexible approach. They've had bus lanes like this for over a decade.

A far more elegant solution

eeguy

AngryLips wrote: »

A far more elegant solution

Unless you're a cyclist or pedestrian with a buggy.

pclive

AngryLips wrote: »

A far more elegant solution

And a lot more expensive

What about buses coming from the motorway? They're more stuck in the traffic now?

Dravokivich

eeguy wrote: »

Unless you're a cyclist or pedestrian with a buggy.

I've never had a problem with curbs as either.

Bray Head

Some thought needs to be given to the policy of giving taxis unlimited, cost-free access to bus lanes too.

Dravokivich

Bray Head wrote: »

Some thought needs to be given to the policy of giving taxis unlimited, cost-free access to bus lanes too.

I thought they are only meant to use it when carrying passengers or on their way to a pickup.

magicbastarder

'on the way to a pickup' covers all eventualities though. maybe not in theory, but it's a get out of jail card for any taxi driver.

Del2005

Isambard wrote: »

Perhaps a few more people will abandon the car and catch the bus.

Unless they put more buses on it'll just mean that the regular users are left standing at the bus stop as full buses fly past, the ex-car drivers will be getting on nearer the terminus.

Isambard

the ultimate aim for any City would be more public transport, less cars.

ted1

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think it's a bit embarrassing that the road has to be segregated like this. If there's an obstruction there are limited alternatives.

Does it take much force to flex those bollards down if they need to be driven over?

They don't need the be driven over. Cars aren't allowed into them , move on

bk

Del2005 wrote: »

Unless they put more buses on it'll just mean that the regular users are left standing at the bus stop as full buses fly past, the ex-car drivers will be getting on nearer the terminus.

Of course they are planning to expand bus services! See new routes and extra buses coming to Dublin Bus.

Also the planned BRT, the first line of which is exactly on this road. So it looks like they are already making smaller steps towards this (also note the road widening at the Cat & Cage on this route that easily took 10 minutes off the journey time).

AlekSmart

magicbastarder wrote: »

'on the way to a pickup' covers all eventualities though. maybe not in theory, but it's a get out of jail card for any taxi driver.

Worse still...the current terminology is "In the course of Business" ie; Carrying a passenger,on the way to pick up a pre-booked customer OR plying for hire.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/bus-lanes/

:rolleyes:

Jamie2k9

This is great to see and TBH I would go as far as saying it's needed along all bus lanes once they turn onto Dorset street up to the flyover. It's such a busy route for buses.

monument

Deleted User wrote: »

What about buses coming from the motorway? They're more stuck in the traffic now?

They could easily fit is bus lane inbound as far back as the Port Tunnel!

monument

Btw for all the people who rant about the NTA never doing anything, I'd bet this is part of or the result of the NTA push for fixing slow points for buses.

StreetLight

bk wrote: »

also note the road widening at the Cat & Cage on this route that easily took 10 minutes off the journey time.

The full benefit of which was almost immediately scuppered by the placing of yet more bus stops!

Del2005

bk wrote: »

Of course they are planning to expand bus services! See new routes and extra buses coming to Dublin Bus.

Also the planned BRT, the first line of which is exactly on this road. So it looks like they are already making smaller steps towards this (also note the road widening at the Cat & Cage on this route that easily took 10 minutes off the journey time).

Planning and planned..... They should have the carrot before the stick. The post I was replying to was that hopefully this will get more people onto buses, are the buses at rush hour not already at full capacity? So more people on buses means that the current bus users closer to the city are skipped because more people are getting on closer to the terminus.

tabbey

AlekSmart wrote: »

Worse still...the current terminology is "In the course of Business" ie; Carrying a passenger,on the way to pick up a pre-booked customer OR plying for hire.

As I understand it, the meter is supposed to be running.

Nevertheless, taxis are strangling the city, there should be measures taken to reduce demand. As a former public servant, I was always horrified by the propensity to order taxis for the most wasteful reasons.

Ordinary people should be encouraged to walk short distances instead, a little exercise would reduce obesity and type 2 diabetes, saving the exchequer money in every way.
Clogged streets and clogged arteries are both bad for quality of life.

magicbastarder

tabbey wrote: »

Ordinary people should be encouraged to walk short distances

and extraordinary people should fly.

Peregrine

Went past this today and was surprised to see it implemented. Fair play.

Bray Head wrote: »

Some thought needs to be given to the policy of giving taxis unlimited, cost-free access to bus lanes too.

I never understood why taxis are allowed to use bus lanes. It just makes no sense to me.

artemis268

Or build totally separate motorways and roads just for buses that runs parallel to cars and underground bus lanes that run throughout the city like they do in Australia. That'll solve the congestion around trinity college at least.

Bray Head

Bray Head wrote: »

Some thought needs to be given to the policy of giving taxis unlimited, cost-free access to bus lanes too.

My point is about what the rules should be, not what they currently are.

Road space is finite and scarce. I can see merit in reserving space for large vehicles carrying dozens of people (buses). Most taxis carry a single passenger, very few carry the maximum.

Taxi drivers (and their passengers) should really pay an appropriate price for the privilege of avoiding traffic. This would free up space for buses which are mass transit in a way that taxis can never be.

magicbastarder

a slightly left-field question - how far would an average dublin bus travel in an average day?

Seaswimmer

Bray Head wrote: »

My point is about what the rules should be, not what they currently are.

Road space is finite and scarce. I can see merit in reserving space for large vehicles carrying dozens of people (buses). Most taxis carry a single passenger, very few carry the maximum.

Taxi drivers (and their passengers) should really pay an appropriate price for the privilege of avoiding traffic. This would free up space for buses which are mass transit in a way that taxis can never be.

Interesting point. I use that bus lane on the bike coming home in the evenings and I observe it while stopped at the lights at Collins Ave in the mornings. When the normal car traffic gets to the point at the end of the cones where it indicates left to go down Collins Ave it is mostly a stream of taxis in the bus lane who are stopping them going left into the lane. There are multiples of taxis for every bus on that route as they all head back into town from the airport

LeinsterDub

tabbey wrote: »

Ordinary people should be encouraged to walk short distances instead, a little exercise would reduce obesity and type 2 diabetes, saving the exchequer money in every way.
Clogged streets and clogged arteries are both bad for quality of life.

We could setup one of the best cycle sharing schemes in the world and then refuse to fund it's expansion. :rolleyes:

magicbastarder

it's a topic which really bugs me. why should i be allowed in the bus lane if i'm the only passenger in a taxi, and private cars with four passengers cannot use it? they're making far more efficient use of the roads.

newacc2015

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We could setup one of the best cycle sharing schemes in the world and then refuse to fund it's expansion. :rolleyes:

Sure Kilkenny doesn't have a bike scheme? Why does Dublin have to get everything? :rolleyes:

It is insane we find €300m to maintain rural roads every year, yet we can't find tens of million one year to expand one of the most successful bike schemes in the World. Allowing Dublin to keep 100% of their LPT would go a long way to improving transport in Dublin.

The Government needs to make owning a car more expensive, that the incentive to use it is reduced. I know there is the whole 'I live in rural Ireland and have to drive everywhere argument'. If owning a car was so expensive for the last 15 years we might have had a ton of McMansions built as it was cheap to commute.

But even within Dublin, DCC forces some developments in the middle of the city to have a carspace. Who in the IFSC wants to drive around the IFSC? No one, but planners think differently

Alkers

artemis268 wrote: »

Or build totally separate motorways and roads just for buses that runs parallel to cars and underground bus lanes that run throughout the city like they do in Australia. That'll solve the congestion around trinity college at least.

BRT is out to tender for designer for two seperate routes atm - swords to city centre and blanch to ucd:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/

bk

StreetLight wrote: »

The full benefit of which was almost immediately scuppered by the placing of yet more bus stops!

Bull****! I use this route almost every day and even with the one new extra stop, it is still WAY faster then it use to be. As in at least 10 minutes if not more off my commute into town.

To be honest, what I've seen on this road really drove home the point to me that the idea there are too many bus stops is a complete red herring. Obviously they have an impact, but the impact is a very small compared to the other measures.

What I've seen on this route and elsewhere is that REAL bus priority measures, like this road widening, these bollards to keep cars out and the bus gate in town are what have a real massive impact on bus journey times and not just drawing lines on a road.

Probably the second priority is reducing dwell time at the stops, by getting rid of cash and driver interaction with flat fares, etc. and the use of multiple doors.

Bus stops are a red herring, as people actually need to get on the bus! Obviously the bus would fly into town if their were no stops, but that would sort of defeat the purpose of a bus! Sure there maybe a few places where there are two stops closer together then needed, but I really don't think there are as many of these as people seem to think and it wouldn't be such a big deal if the dwell times were so damn slow.

StreetLight

bk wrote: »

Bull****!

Hysterical much? Read what I said again and pay attention to the word in bold:

"The full benefit of which was almost immediately scuppered by the placing of yet more bus stops!"

This city needs less bus stops, not more.

heroics

newacc2015 wrote: »

Sure Kilkenny doesn't have a bike scheme? Why does Dublin have to get everything? :rolleyes:

It is insane we find €300m to maintain rural roads every year, yet we can't find tens of million one year to expand one of the most successful bike schemes in the World. Allowing Dublin to keep 100% of their LPT would go a long way to improving transport in Dublin.

The Government needs to make owning a car more expensive, that the incentive to use it is reduced. I know there is the whole 'I live in rural Ireland and have to drive everywhere argument'. If owning a car was so expensive for the last 15 years we might have had a ton of McMansions built as it was cheap to commute.

But even within Dublin, DCC forces some developments in the middle of the city to have a carspace. Who in the IFSC wants to drive around the IFSC? No one, but planners think differently

Owning a car is already expensive. Also just because someone lives in the IFSC does not mean they want to spend there whole life/day in the IFSC. Maybe they want to go other places that they need a car. Planners should include some sort of provision for car parking in developments. Just because you don't want a car does not mean everyone is the same.

What do you mean by this " If owning a car was so expensive for the last 15 years we might have had a ton of McMansions built as it was cheap to commute."?

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

To be honest, what I've seen on this road really drove home the point to me that the idea there are too many bus stops is a complete red herring. Obviously they have an impact, but the impact is a very small compared to the other measures.

Only the ideologues on this forum maintain that there are too many bus stops in Dublin. Nowhere else, either in the form of public feedback, policy experts or public representatives maintain this to be an issue. It's a non issue.

markpb

heroics wrote: »

Planners should include some sort of provision for car parking in developments. Just because you don't want a car does not mean everyone is the same.

On the other hand, when people own a car and have paid all the fixed costs associated with having one, they're more likely to drive rather than consider public transport. Likewise, when lots of people own a car, they're more likely to demand that politicians build infrastructure to support that. Look at the objections every time there's a plan to change a speed limit, paint a bus lane, build a bus gate or a tram line.

bk

StreetLight wrote: »

Hysterical much? Read what I said again and pay attention to the word in bold:

"The full benefit of which was almost immediately scuppered by the placing of yet more bus stops!"

This city needs less bus stops, not more.

Honestly I don't see a few less bus stops making any difference at all.

Here is what will make a difference in order of priority, from making most difference to less:

1) More "hard" bus priority measures. Similar to the ones mentioned on this thread:
- Pinch points widened
- Bus lanes that cars physically can't access
- More bus gates
- Dedicated public transport only routes, like planned for along the quays
- Proper enforcement of all other bus lanes. (Footage from DB cameras of bus lane violations handed over to the Gardai for fixed penalty notices).
- Proper, high quality, dedicated bike lanes so cyclists don't have to mingle with massive buses.
- Ban taxis from Bus lanes.

2) Genuine express services that skip lots of bus stops. For instance buses to and from Swords skipping all stops inside the M50 and/or use the port tunnel. Or for instance, straightening the 16 route to the airport so that it heads straight along this motorway, rather then snaking slowly through Beaumont.

3) Reduce dwell time:
- get rid of cash
- zero driver interaction, flat fare tag-on
- Use rear doors at every stop for exit
- New Hybrid Electric or fully Electric buses

This is an interesting one that I haven't seen mentioned before. An issue that new buses have is that they must meet the latest EU energy standards. That means they are far less polluting and use less fuel (also good for company finance as fuel is the second biggest running cost after wages). The downside however is that this newer buses have pretty terrible initial acceleration from stopped. Obviously that is bad for a city bus service.

A solution to this problem is too move to hybrid and fully electric buses. Electric motors have fantastic torque and thus great initial acceleration, which would greatly help city type bus services.

Compared to all of the above, removing a few bus stops here or there will make little or no difference.

Focus on what has the greatest impact first, don't get distracted by things that are hard to do and have little positive impact.

ThisRegard

newacc2015 wrote: »

The Government needs to make owning a car more expensive, that the incentive to use it is reduced.

No they shouldn't. They perhaps should make it more expensive to use it in certain areas, but they shouldn't make the ownership of a car more expensive.

monument

AngryLips wrote: »

Only the ideologues on this forum maintain that there are too many bus stops in Dublin. Nowhere else, either in the form of public feedback, policy experts or public representatives maintain this to be an issue. It's a non issue.

It's far from a non-issue on some routes and it's not not suitable for buses as a means of even semi-mass transport.

I've measured it out before -- the Swords route could support centre of the road BRT-style bus lanes with staggered bus stops (OR Luas with staggered stop) and still have space for footpaths, cycle paths and at least a single general traffic lane in each direction.

Idbatterim

How much will this joke from swords to the city centre cost? Maybe going ahead with metro north to save a few euro on metro north inferior, then I hear of this, what the hell will this joke "solution" cost? you can already get from swords to docklands and city centre by bus through the port tunnel, very quickly...

Im looking on google satellite view, and I know from first hand experience that junction is ridilulous. Why dont they cpo some of the massive church car park?

josip

Isambard wrote: »

the ultimate aim for any City would be more public transport, less cars.

As long as that public transport wasn't noisy diesel buses.
Can you imagine how pleasant the city centre would be if the bus fleet was electrified?

bk

josip wrote: »

As long as that public transport wasn't noisy diesel buses.
Can you imagine how pleasant the city centre would be if the bus fleet was electrified?

Yes, it would be much more preferable and it will eventually happen. All new buses in London are now at least hybrid and they are also starting to bring in fully electric buses.

It will probably happen here too eventually. Electric buses while more expensive up front, have much cheaper fuel running costs and eventually they pay for themselves.

The issue here is that new buses are bought and owned by the NTA, but Dublin Bus pays for the fuel. So if they switch to EV buses, the NTA bears the increased up front cost, but doesn't benefit from the reduced fuel cost, DB does! They will need to fix that first, from the recent NTA article it is clear they are working on it.

Idbatterim

there is a mention here of diesel v electric. electric buses would be sooooo much more pleasant to take...