Largest church in Ireland to be demolished, replacement one tenth of the size.

Zubeneschamali

newacc2015 wrote: »

There has been no major closures in middle class areas, as the middle classes of Dublin still go to mass. Some suburbs are full of churches and they haven't closed or merged any of them. When they start closing churches in Donnybrook, Glasnevin, Clontarf, Churchtown etc. That is a sign of social change.

I grew up in Churchtown. I was at a months-mind mass there last year, at a popular time, and it was 90% empty, and people there for mass were all pensioners. The only people under 60 were relations of the deceased. The capacity of the church has been reduced.

When I was a kid, there was an 8.00, 8.45, 9.30, 10.30, 11.30, 12.30, 5 and 7 mass every Sunday. They weren't all full, but you literally couldn't get into the 11.30 or 12.30 if you came late - the church was wedged and people were regularly carried out after fainting.

Now there are just 2 masses on a Sunday, and to be generous, a Saturday Evening mass. 3 instead of 8, with less seats and tiny attendance.

I'd say if attendance is 10% of what it was in 1975, that's all it is, and aging and dying off fast.

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

Why do you think that is great to see?

it is actually OK to not like the catholic church and welcome the slow sapping of its power.

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

it is actually OK to not like the catholic church and welcome the slow sapping of its power.

True, although my question was not for you it was for stevecw.

robindch

realdanbreen wrote: »

Stevecw wrote:

All Churches are struggling for numbers, which is great to see.

Why do you think that is great to see?

You're posting in a forum named "Atheism and Agnosticism" - I'd imagine you should be able to put together an answer to that one yourself without too much trouble.

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

True, although my question was not for you it was for stevecw.

that's okay, my answer was for you and you alone. it can be our secret.

realdanbreen

robindch wrote: »

You're posting in a forum named "Atheism and Agnosticism" - I'd imagine you should be able to put together an answer to that one yourself without too much trouble.

Oh!, I thought most atheists & agnostics were simply not interested or exercised by religion. BTW I'm fully aware of the forum that I am posting in.

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

Oh!, I thought most atheists & agnostics were simply not interested or exercised by religion. BTW I'm fully aware of the forum that I am posting in.

your two sentences contradict each other though.

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

your two sentences contradict each other though.

How? though.

magicbastarder

you know the forum, and expect atheists to be disinterested in religion?

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

you know the forum, and expect atheists to be disinterested in religion?

The real atheists that I know have no belief in God and no belief in religion and certainly no interest one way or the other in the numbers attending church services.

KingBrian2

I reckon this new church is to cator for christian migrants from the Arab world we have allowed enter into Europe. Lets not start another church building craze to provide for all the religions of the world many of which have values we don't share.

J C

realdanbreen wrote: »

The real atheists that I know have no belief in God and no belief in religion and certainly no interest one way or the other in the numbers attending church services.

All real Atheists ...

... are there real and unreal Atheists ?

looksee

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I reckon this new church is to cator for christian migrants from the Arab world we have allowed enter into Europe. Lets not start another church building craze to provide for all the religions of the world many of which have values we don't share.

That does not appear to make any sense on a number of levels?

KingBrian2

looksee wrote: »

That does not appear to make any sense on a number of levels?

Why that the growing christian community in Ireland is coming from migrants not that this is necessary bad however i don't want to see religious views from abroad being exported into Ireland that endanger the country.

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

The real atheists that I know have no belief in God and no belief in religion and certainly no interest one way or the other in the numbers attending church services.

as a human being interested in fair allocation of places in primary schools, i am interested in church attendance figures, as a primary indicator of just how important people feel catholicism is.

realdanbreen

J C wrote: »

All real Atheists ...

... are there real and unreal Atheists ?

Sure are , maybe read the post again ,I think I explained the difference.

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

as a human being interested in fair allocation of places in primary schools, i am interested in church attendance figures, as a primary indicator of just how important people feel catholicism is.

And as the dogs in the street know an actual shortage of school places is the real problem, maybe you should lobby your TD about having schools built in your area?

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

an actual shortage of school places is the real problem

this is not an argument against banning the baptismal preference, even if it were true.

J C

realdanbreen wrote: »

And as the dogs in the street know an actual shortage of school places is the real problem, maybe you should lobby your TD about having schools built in your area?

Rather than building new schools ... everyone argues over the exisiting ones.
Rather than building new houses ... everyone argues over the existing ones.
Rather than building new hospital rooms ... everyone argues over the existing ones.

... there is a pattern emerging here !!!

... it called focussing on the wrong issues.:)

Hotblack Desiato

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Why that the growing christian community in Ireland is coming from migrants not that this is necessary bad however i don't want to see religious views from abroad being exported into Ireland that endanger the country.

We did that about 1600 years ago, and it was disastrous...

pauldla

realdanbreen wrote: »

The real atheists that I know have no belief in God and no belief in religion and certainly no interest one way or the other in the numbers attending church services.

The real atheists that you know? I'd be interested to read your elaboration of the term 'real atheist'.

realdanbreen

pauldla wrote: »

The real atheists that you know? I'd be interested to read your elaboration of the term 'real atheist'.

Without me rabbitting on about it the gist of it is that a real atheist would never set foot in a church, temple or any religious building and those people I respect. Then you have the 'look at me the atheist' type who go to church several times a year in case not doing so would offend aunty margaret or 'heaven forbid' the wifes parents! Funeral respects can be paid at the funeral home and weddings can be celebrated at the wedding reception and that is what real atheists do.

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

Without me rabbitting on about it the gist of it is that a real atheist would never set foot in a church, temple or any religious building.

We don't burst into flames if we walk into church, you know.

pauldla

realdanbreen wrote: »

Without me rabbitting on about it the gist of it is that a real atheist would never set foot in a church, temple or any religious building and those people I respect. Then you have the 'look at me the atheist' type who go to church several times a year in case not doing so would offend aunty margaret or 'heaven forbid' the wifes parents! Funeral respects can be paid at the funeral home and weddings can be celebrated at the wedding reception and that is what real atheists do.

They lack the courage of their convictions, so to speak? I see. A harsh criterion; by this yardstick I am not a real atheist, it seems, as I have been inside Catholic and Buddhist places of worship within the last year. So, may I ask how I would be termed on this basis?

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

We don't burst into flames if we walk into church, you know.

Why would an athesis 'walk into church' ?

realdanbreen

pauldla wrote: »

They lack the courage of their convictions, so to speak? I see. A harsh criterion; by this yardstick I am not a real atheist, it seems, as I have been inside Catholic and Buddhist places of worship within the last year. So, may I ask how I would be termed on this basis?

I think you have already figured that out yourself paul.

Peregrinus

pauldla wrote: »

They lack the courage of their convictions, so to speak? I see. A harsh criterion; by this yardstick I am not a real atheist, it seems, as I have been inside Catholic and Buddhist places of worship within the last year. So, may I ask how I would be termed on this basis?

Well, you don't meet realdanbreen's criteria of reality. He doesn't believe in you. As far as realdanbreen and other apauldlaists are concerned, you don't exist; you're a myth, a fairy tale. an imaginary friend, an invisible pink unicorn.

To be so regarded is a heavy misfortune indeed. But if God can bear it, so can you.

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

Why would an athesis 'walk into church' ?

i was in about a dozen churches in rome when there on holidays. should i have been blocked at the door?

Peregrinus

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was in about a dozen churches in rome when there on holidays. should i have been blocked at the door?

Not at all. As soon as you stepped through the door, you became unreal, thereby reducing by one the number of Real Atheists©. A small victory in the struggle against unbelief!

magicbastarder

an aside, the crypt tour under st peter's was one of the best things i've ever done on holidays. largely because of the history obsessed american priest who led the tour.

dar100

newacc2015 wrote: »

This is not social change. Working classes of Dublin always had poor mass attendance. Finglas only had one church built for the huge increase in population when they were building modern Finglas. Ballymun had one Church built for it when they threw tens of thousands into the area. Look at how massive Phisboro is and it has a single big Church. Working Class Dubliners were not religious, not even in the 1960s when they were moving them out to the suburbs.

Even 20 years ago mass attendance was poor in Finglas

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/bringing-spirituality-to-sisterhood-in-finglas-1.47410

Making this church smaller isnt a sign of social change. It is addressing the fact it was too big from day one.

There has been no major closures in middle class areas, as the middle classes of Dublin still go to mass. Some suburbs are full of churches and they haven't closed or merged any of them. When they start closing churches in Donnybrook, Glasnevin, Clontarf, Churchtown etc. That is a sign of social change.

What utter BS!!

What else would one expect from a person of the classes?

Ballymun subsequently built another 3 churches in the area, if you count Our Ladies of Victory, one of the biggest in Dublin, that makes 4!! All of which have little attendance

Perhaps the "middle class" as you call them, provide more money in collections!! This does not equal more people attending mass, just more disposable income

realdanbreen

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, you don't meet realdanbreen's criteria of reality. He doesn't believe in you. As far as realdanbreen and other apauldlaists are concerned, you don't exist; you're a myth, a fairy tale. an imaginary friend, an invisible pink unicorn.

To be so regarded is a heavy misfortune indeed. But if God can bear it, so can you.

Thanks Pere but you didn't really have to respond on my behalf. I think paulida hit the nail on the head when she mentioned 'they lack the courage of their convictions'

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was in about a dozen churches in rome when there on holidays. should i have been blocked at the door?

I'm pretty sure you know that I am referring to going into church to attend religious services.

magicbastarder

on the contrary, you seemed quite unaware of a reason an atheist might visit a church. you did actually ask for one.

Zubeneschamali

realdanbreen wrote: »

Why would an athesis 'walk into church' ?

Because he's with a Rabbi and a Kerryman?

HensVassal

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I'm trying to think of BIG churches now.

You know that one in Whitehall?

That just comes to mind now, can anyone else add....

I'll think as I go. Betcha the biggies in Saith Cainty Dublin will be ok tho.

There's one on Griffith Avenue close to the Malahide Road end (Marino) and it is huge. Must admit though it really is a nice building. It would not look out of place in Florence or Barcelona, unlike these brutalist eyesores built in the 60's like the Finglas one and Donnycarney. There's another one on Griffith Avenue closer to the Glasnevin end, Corpus Christi. It has a big green dome and it's fairly massive too.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3699878,-6.2317077,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFlWmJu81qM2AnvEIsirowg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.37695,-6.2558076,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skD-CGdfCd8A4qhj5iVAmSw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned here already. The aircraft hangar-like concrete monstrosity in Finglas is to be demolished. The 3,500 capacity church will be replaced with a new one of a capacity of 350, presumably to reflect the small congregations of today in what is a very populous area.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/one-of-dublin-s-largest-catholic-churches-to-be-demolished-1.2961481

The surplus land is intended to be used for social housing. I am presuming the RCC will hand over the freehold of this land without consideration and with no conditions attached other than that it be used for social housing. If they do, I applaud them, and there are many other sites within Dublin owned by them which are severely under-used or unused and which could be usefully turned over to the local authorities for similar use.

Of course what they used to do was flog off land at top dollar for private housing developments, even though that land was usually bequeathed to them expressly for use for educational or religious purposes. Of course, this being Ireland, the legality of these land sales has never been questioned and no capital gains tax was charged.

Did you even open the article? It says one of Dublins largest churches, not "Largest church in Ireland"

I suppose the truth is not as sensational, huh.

pauldla

realdanbreen wrote: »

pauldla wrote: »

They lack the courage of their convictions, so to speak? I see. A harsh criterion; by this yardstick I am not a real atheist, it seems, as I have been inside Catholic and Buddhist places of worship within the last year. So, may I ask how I would be termed on this basis?

I think you have already figured that out yourself paul.

I am to be called a not-real atheist, then? What are the tenets of this not-real atheism?

HensVassal

newacc2015 wrote: »

This is not social change. Working classes of Dublin always had poor mass attendance. Finglas only had one church built for the huge increase in population when they were building modern Finglas. Ballymun had one Church built for it when they threw tens of thousands into the area. Look at how massive Phisboro is and it has a single big Church. Working Class Dubliners were not religious, not even in the 1960s when they were moving them out to the suburbs.

Even 20 years ago mass attendance was poor in Finglas

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/bringing-spirituality-to-sisterhood-in-finglas-1.47410

Making this church smaller isnt a sign of social change. It is addressing the fact it was too big from day one.

There has been no major closures in middle class areas, as the middle classes of Dublin still go to mass. Some suburbs are full of churches and they haven't closed or merged any of them. When they start closing churches in Donnybrook, Glasnevin, Clontarf, Churchtown etc. That is a sign of social change.

When I was a kid Whitehall Church was always packed to the rafters for 10:30, 11:30 and 12:30 Mass

realdanbreen

pauldla wrote: »

I am to be called a not-real atheist, then? What are the tenets of this not-real atheism?

I suppose you could call yourself a fine day atheist. In other words 'I wouldn't darken the door of a church!.....(unless of course aunty margaret or the wifes parents, the neighbours, etc etc might be offended if I didn't go to some services)

pauldla

realdanbreen wrote: »

pauldla wrote: »

I am to be called a not-real atheist, then? What are the tenets of this not-real atheism?

I suppose you could call yourself a fine day atheist. In other words 'I wouldn't darken the door of a church!.....(unless of course aunty margaret or the wifes parents, the neighbours, etc etc might be offended if I didn't go to some services)

So, not-real atheists are those with no religious beliefs who attend religious services due to perceived family or social obligation?

magicbastarder

for someone who seems to hate 'fake' atheists, i'd have expected you'd also hate the baptismal rule for NS entry, as it results in a load of fake catholics being created.

realdanbreen

pauldla wrote: »

So, not-real atheists are those with no religious beliefs who attend religious services due to perceived family or social obligation?

Also they would have an almost obsessive interest in church matters, numbers attending services etc, whereas an Atheist have no interest in anything to do with religion.

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

for someone who seems to hate 'fake' atheists, i'd have expected you'd also hate the baptismal rule for NS entry, as it results in a load of fake catholics being created.

fortunately 'hate' is something I rarely feel about anything. But I do dislike hypocracy from whatever quarter it comes from.

pauldla

realdanbreen wrote: »

pauldla wrote: »

So, not-real atheists are those with no religious beliefs who attend religious services due to perceived family or social obligation?

Also they would have an almost obsessive interest in church matters, numbers attending services etc, whereas an Atheist have no interest in anything to do with religion.

So, if one attends service while not believing, but doesn't have a certain level of interest in church matters, one is not a not-real atheist, and can be called atheist? Similarly, if one has a prescribed level of interest in church matters etc but does not attend services, one is also not a not-real atheist and can be called an atheist?

I really must wonder if you've thought this through.

Zubeneschamali

realdanbreen wrote: »

In other words 'I wouldn't darken the door of a church!.....(unless of course aunty margaret or the wifes parents, the neighbours, etc etc might be offended if I didn't go to some services)

I wouldn't ordinarily darken the door of a McDonalds either, but if I'm with my sister-in-law and she has my nephew with her, I'd go in with them. The coffee is actually OK these days.

HensVassal

realdanbreen wrote: »

Without me rabbitting on about it the gist of it is that a real atheist would never set foot in a church, temple or any religious building and those people I respect. Then you have the 'look at me the atheist' type who go to church several times a year in case not doing so would offend aunty margaret or 'heaven forbid' the wifes parents! Funeral respects can be paid at the funeral home and weddings can be celebrated at the wedding reception and that is what real atheists do.

I visit churches and cathedrals because I like the architecture and the silence. But I always come away feeling a bit depressed that so much effort went into something so pointless and head to a pub to see if I can chat up some tarty little Wiccan minx.

magicbastarder

speaking of hypocrisy, how many 'real' catholics who do bend the knee at mass actually believe all the tenets of the church, and refuse to use contraception, eat red meat on fridays, etc. etc.?

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

speaking of hypocrisy, how many 'real' catholics who do bend the knee at mass actually believe all the tenets of the church, and refuse to use contraception, eat red meat on fridays, etc. etc.?

Like I say I dislike hypocracy and people pleaseing no matter where it comes from. As for 'eating red meat' ? You must have been around in the 60's I guess.

newacc2015

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

dar100 wrote: »

What utter BS!!

What else would one expect from a person of the classes?

Ballymun subsequently built another 3 churches in the area, if you count Our Ladies of Victory, one of the biggest in Dublin, that makes 4!! All of which have little attendance

Perhaps the "middle class" as you call them, provide more money in collections!! This does not equal more people attending mass, just more disposable income

I dont know why you are so salty about this. There stats on this and working class areas on average have a mass attendance rate of 2-3%. It is up in the mid 30s for middle class Dubliners. This is not my opinion, but hard facts.

So are you saying an independent survey massaged the figures to imply middle classes Dubliners donate more in church? It makes zero sense.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mass-attendance-in-dublin-to-drop-by-one-third-by-2030-1.2504351

When Ballymun was built, the residents were not really allowed to go into other areas. DCC built a ton of walls to keep the residents of Ballymun separate from other areas. The Gardai used to challenge Ballymun residents going into Glasnevin. The residents of Ballymun, would not have used Our Lady of Victory. Ballymun has two churches in it. The residents would not have been using Our Lady of Victory. Our Lady of Victory would have poor mass attendance due to the fact a lot of the area is students, who go home at the weekend.

FYI 'classes' in this country refers to the breakdown of someone by skill and education. I don't think you seem to realise that and seem to think me referencing classes is somewhat elitist. When in fact is relevant to this discussion as working class area tend to have very poor mass attendance to middle class areas.

If you have an issue with breaking areas done by class, my suggestion is dont read anything from the CSO, as you might have a stroke!