Largest church in Ireland to be demolished, replacement one tenth of the size.

Hotblack Desiato

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned here already. The aircraft hangar-like concrete monstrosity in Finglas is to be demolished. The 3,500 capacity church will be replaced with a new one of a capacity of 350, presumably to reflect the small congregations of today in what is a very populous area.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/one-of-dublin-s-largest-catholic-churches-to-be-demolished-1.2961481

The surplus land is intended to be used for social housing. I am presuming the RCC will hand over the freehold of this land without consideration and with no conditions attached other than that it be used for social housing. If they do, I applaud them, and there are many other sites within Dublin owned by them which are severely under-used or unused and which could be usefully turned over to the local authorities for similar use.

Of course what they used to do was flog off land at top dollar for private housing developments, even though that land was usually bequeathed to them expressly for use for educational or religious purposes. Of course, this being Ireland, the legality of these land sales has never been questioned and no capital gains tax was charged.

recedite

That's going to create a mega pile of recycled concrete chunks.
The promotion of religion is considered to be "a charitable purpose" under current law, so presumably that is why they don't feel the need to pay tax after selling off a site to developers.

magicbastarder

the church in donnycarney is a massive monolith too, but they've recently refurbished it (according to links i can find online). it's not exactly graceful, looks a little like a massive telephone exchange.

Sleeper12

The first of many. Lots of huge churches going to get the chop

Spanish Eyes

I'm trying to think of BIG churches now.

You know that one in Whitehall?

That just comes to mind now, can anyone else add....

I'll think as I go. Betcha the biggies in Saith Cainty Dublin will be ok tho.

johnnyskeleton

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned here already. The aircraft hangar-like concrete monstrosity in Finglas is to be demolished. The 3,500 capacity church will be replaced with a new one of a capacity of 350, presumably to reflect the small congregations of today in what is a very populous area.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/one-of-dublin-s-largest-catholic-churches-to-be-demolished-1.2961481

The surplus land is intended to be used for social housing. I am presuming the RCC will hand over the freehold of this land without consideration and with no conditions attached other than that it be used for social housing. If they do, I applaud them, and there are many other sites within Dublin owned by them which are severely under-used or unused and which could be usefully turned over to the local authorities for similar use.

Of course what they used to do was flog off land at top dollar for private housing developments, even though that land was usually bequeathed to them expressly for use for educational or religious purposes. Of course, this being Ireland, the legality of these land sales has never been questioned and no capital gains tax was charged.

Theres no such entity as the Roman Catholic Church. Each parish or denomination has its own property albeit that there are shared funds and subventions to the bishop/vatican etc. So while some parts of the church have loads of money, others dont. Maybe the priests are selling off the land because they have debts etc.

In any event, while it would be nice if they donated it to the council I wouldnt expect them to.

Pherekydes

I don't know what this has to do with this forum. Shouldn't the other forum be worried about this?

Holy Child in Whitehall is another that's too big, as is my old stomping ground, Our Lady of Victories.

Can't ever see the church donating land for development, though.

recedite

Pherekydes wrote: »

Our Lady of Victories.

Great name BTW. What victory were they thinking about when they named it?
Possibly a name change will be in order if they "demolish and shrink" it.

Pherekydes

recedite wrote: »

Great name BTW. What victory were they thinking about when they named it?
Possibly a name change will be in order if they "demolish and shrink" it.

I dunno, probably victories over enlightenment or liberal atheists or something?

New name probably something like Our Lady of Draws.

gctest50

recedite wrote: »

That's going to create a mega pile of recycled concrete chunks..........

They could chop them into little cubes and sell them, some people would love one :

Hotblack Desiato

Pherekydes wrote: »

I don't know what this has to do with this forum.

You don't think the demolition of the largest church in the country, and its replacement with one one tenth of the size isn't a notable event or a significant marker of social change?

Shouldn't the other forum be worried about this?

Maybe, but most of them appear to be protestants

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

. . . Of course what they used to do was flog off land at top dollar for private housing developments, even though that land was usually bequeathed to them expressly for use for educational or religious purposes. Of course, this being Ireland, the legality of these land sales has never been questioned and no capital gains tax was charged.

Of course, this being Ireland, in each case they had to apply to court for approval for the sale, and they had to satisfy the court that the sale proceeds would be applied to the charitable purposes for which the bequest was originally made.

But don't let reality get in the way of your security blanket of comforting preconceptions.

Pherekydes

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You don't think the demolition of the largest church in the country, and its replacement with one one tenth of the size isn't a notable event or a significant marker of social change?

So post it in After Hours. :pac:

magicbastarder

Pherekydes wrote: »

as is my old stomping ground, Our Lady of Victories.

i've been living beside this church for several years now, but have never been inside; is it true that it's more pleasant to look at from the inside than the outside?

recedite

gctest50 wrote: »

They could chop them into little cubes and sell them, some people would love one

I could see them selling well in Moore Street...
"Last pieces of the one true church, as blessed by Archbishop McQuaid himself, only €1.99 each..."

Peregrinus

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've been living beside this church for several years now, but have never been inside; is it true that it's more pleasant to look at from the inside than the outside?

I don't know; I've never been inside. It could hardly look any worse inside than outside, though, could it?

Whatever about the demolition of the church being a significant marker of social change, as Hotblack says, it's undoubtedly a giant leap forward for good taste.

PopePalpatine

Pherekydes wrote: »

I dunno, probably victories over enlightenment or liberal atheists or something?

Well that's pretty much obvious to anyone with a bare-bones knowledge of the relationship between Church & State in this country.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Great name BTW. What victory were they thinking about when they named it?

Pherekydes wrote: »

I dunno, probably victories over enlightenment or liberal atheists or something?

Nothing so prosaic. The title commemorates the victory of the Holy League over the Ottoman navy at the Battle of Lepanto in 1571.

Pherekydes

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've been living beside this church for several years now, but have never been inside; is it true that it's more pleasant to look at from the inside than the outside?

Go in and have a look. The internal architecture is amazing and quite beautiful. I think. It even had a soundproof crying room for parents with squawking babies. Having said that, they could probably revert to the school hall that they used to use before it was built and free up a fair bit of prime (for the northside ) real estate.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nothing so prosaic. The title commemorates the victory of the Holy League over the Ottoman navy at the Battle of Lepanto in 1571.

Oh boy. The church commemorating victory over the Muslim horde invading Europe is about to be destroyed.
That is ironic.

Dare I say it might be a good spot for a new Mosque?

Pherekydes

recedite wrote: »

Oh boy. The church commemorating victory over the Muslim horde invading Europe is about to be destroyed.
That is ironic.

I don't think so. The thread is about the church in Finglas. It's kind of gone off at a tangent about other large churches (all on the northside, so far). No plans, yet, to take down OLV.

NIMAN

The way things are going, they could just forget about building a new one.

I'm sure there's another church nearby that those who are interested could visit.

In 50yrs time, there will be little need for the newly build church too.

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

Of course, this being Ireland, in each case they had to apply to court for approval for the sale, and they had to satisfy the court that the sale proceeds would be applied to the charitable purposes for which the bequest was originally made.

Really? Got a cite for any of these court cases?
It helps of course that the perpetuation of religion is regarded as a charitable activity in itself.
I would be very surprised if there is any traceability of where this money really ends up, the finances of the RCC are a black hole (blacker even than a priest's socks. None more black.)

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Really? Got a cite for any of these court cases?
It helps of course that the perpetuation of religion is regarded as a charitable activity in itself.
I would be very surprised if there is any traceability of where this money really ends up, the finances of the RCC are a black hole (blacker even than a priest's socks. None more black.)

Well, I could have asked for a cite for your claim that the land "was usually bequeathed to them expressly for use for educational or religious purposes", couldn't I? It's only if land is bequeathed to them on terms that they must use it for those purposes (and, therefore, they may not sell it) that they would need to make a court application.

It's called a cy-près application. If using property in the way directed by the donor is no longer a practical or effective way of advancing the objects of the charity to which the donor gave the property (objects which, it is presumed, the donor wished to advance) then the trustees of the charity can apply to court for approval to vary the terms of the gift so the property can be used effectively (which frequently involves selling it, and applying the proceeds to the purposes of the charity).

If there are few or no reported cases to be found of religious institutions applying for approval to sell land (and, at this point, I haven't looked for any) wouldn't that suggest that your original suggestion that the land was given on terms that it would not be sold is wrong?

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

If there are few or no reported cases to be found of religious institutions applying for approval to sell land (and, at this point, I haven't looked for any) wouldn't that suggest that your original suggestion that the land was given on terms that it would not be sold is wrong?

Where did I say that the land could not be sold? It's what happens to the funds that matters. Various RCC organisations sold various tracts of development land in the 90s in south Dublin for what must have been a pretty penny. It is in the public interest to know what happened to this money - particularly as some of the orders involved have large unpaid debts to the State resulting from the abuse scandals.

Basically all you're saying is that absence of evidence of RCC wrongdoing is evidence of absence of RCC wrongdoing. An ironic twist on the common 'atheists must prove there is no god' fallacy if ever there was one.

magicbastarder

speaking of large churches, it's bemusing that when you visit st. peter's in rome, they engage in dick measuring by having markers in the floor showing the size of other, lesser, churches, i assume in a bid to try to impress you even more.

Walter H Price

was just about to post on this , only heard from my Granda last night it was being bulldozed , he used to be a minister of the Eucharist there. One of Archbishop McQuaids big three legacy churches along with Donnycarney and the one in Ballyfermot.

Surely a sign of the times that a church of its size in such a densely populated area is now only served by two priests and has become so underused that they cant justify the maintenance costs on it anymore.

magicbastarder

speaking of the number of priests in the churches too, OLV lost a priest too recently; the PP died before christmas, and he certainly was not an old man.

silverharp

could they start outsourcing the work to Chennai , especially for something like confessions? "hello, my name is Steve Ill be your priest today.... btw would you be interested in our new Sky TV package?" "what youre leaving us for a Protestant church erm maybe we can reduce your Easter dues?"

Hotblack Desiato

It's not easy to cancel Sky but it's still a lot easier than leaving the RCC!

Whatever about the number of priests (if it's really only two, they'll still struggle with the new downsized church) the building was always impossible to heat, and like a lot of 60s concrete wonders developed problems.

There was a letter in yesterday's Irish Times:

Sir, – I was surprised at how saddened I was reading Patsy McGarry’s article about the planned demolition of the church in Finglas West (“One of Dublin’s largest Catholic churches to be demolished”, February 3rd).

I served Mass as an altar boy in the Church of the Annunciation, and I have the gammy knees to prove it. The steps to the altar of the temporary but much-loved “tin church” that preceded the “new church” were pure luxury to kneel on compared to the cold marble which led to the altar of the latest incarnation. As the years went on, I froze at wedding and funerals, including the funerals of both my parents, clean hanky in hand, not for the tears but for the runny nose.

The half-empty church, which seemed to rise as high as Liberty Hall, was impossible to heat. But, nonetheless, I will miss it terribly.

Now I live in Co Sligo, and on my infrequent visits back to Dublin by train my heart beats a little faster as we pass Ashtown and I prepare to catch sight of that grey and unattractive building. Just as the Plough can lead the lost traveller to the North Star, so the huge church on the horizon leads me to the very house where my late parents reared their five children.

While religion left me long ago, the Church of the Annunciation still managed to show me the way. – Your, etc,

BRIAN FARRELL,
Kilmactranny,
Co Sligo.

It was half-empty even in his day.

Hotblack Desiato

Walter H Price wrote: »

One of Archbishop McQuaids big three legacy churches along with Donnycarney and the one in Ballyfermot.

McQuaid's fingerprints were all over the huge ugly church in Bird Avenue, Clonskeagh too.

Some time in the 50s it was agreed to hold an architectural competition to design the new church, McQuaid overruled the winning entry and substituted his own choice.

BorneTobyWilde

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

McQuaid's fingerprints were all over the huge ugly church in Bird Avenue, Clonskeagh too.

Some time in the 50s it was agreed to hold an architectural competition to design the new church, McQuaid overruled the winning entry and substituted his own choice.

What a brick head.

recedite

In vaguely related news, a boarding school run by Trappist monks in Roscrea is closing.

Also known as Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance, Trappists apparently don't eat four footed animals, and don't speak any more than is strictly necessary. In colouration, they are apparently greyfriars. And they have developed their own sign language.

Does anyone know what their teaching style was like? It must have involved a lot of pointing at the blackboard.

I almost think its a pity that these oddities disappear just as I discover them.
I wonder if they could turn the monastic complex into a Trappist themed holiday resort for a few years, just so the rest of us could get to meet them before they go?

J C

recedite wrote: »

In vaguely related news, a boarding school run by Trappist monks in Roscrea is closing.

Also known as Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance, Trappists apparently don't eat four footed animals, and don't speak any more than is strictly necessary. In colouration, they are apparently greyfriars. And they have developed their own sign language.

Does anyone know what their teaching style was like? It must have involved a lot of pointing at the blackboard.

I almost think its a pity that these oddities disappear just as I discover them.
I wonder if they could turn the monastic complex into a Trappist themed holiday resort for a few years, just so the rest of us could get to meet them before they go?

It wouldn't be my 'cup of tea' ... but they apparently have a guesthouse that you can stay in (between April and October).:)

http://www.msjroscrea.ie/guesthouse/overview/

recedite

J C wrote: »

It wouldn't be my 'cup of tea' ...

It should be right up your street, you'd be welcomed as Jesus Christ.
I'm not sure I could withstand being woken up at 4am by enthusiastic chanting though.

J C

recedite wrote: »

It should be right up your street, you'd be welcomed as Jesus Christ.

... I think they might not welcome my Biblical ways ... and the silence would be a problem for me.:)

recedite wrote: »

I'm not sure I could withstand being woken up at 4am by enthusiastic chanting though.

Me neither.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

apparently don't eat four footed animals, and don't speak any more than is strictly necessary.

at least bacon is still possible

recedite

Hmm... looks like somebody took the ham, and left the rest.

Reminds me of this scene at a French restaurant...

Jan_de_Bakker

Any plans to get rid of the monstrosity in Raheny ?

Samaris

I went to a summer french college in that place in Roscrea. Sorry it's closing down, it's a beautiful building. Would be sad to see it demolished; hope there's some plans for it.

Fleawuss

Samaris wrote: »

I went to a summer french college in that place in Roscrea. Sorry it's closing down, it's a beautiful building. Would be sad to see it demolished; hope there's some plans for it.

Visited there a few times in a different life. It would make a good prison.

goose2005

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

McQuaid's fingerprints were all over the huge ugly church in Bird Avenue, Clonskeagh too.

Some time in the 50s it was agreed to hold an architectural competition to design the new church, McQuaid overruled the winning entry and substituted his own choice.

fond of Lego, was he?

magicbastarder

actually, is there any familial link between mcquaid and the mcquaid family of cycling fame?

Peregrinus

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, is there any familial link between mcquaid and the mcquaid family of cycling fame?

If there is, I think it must be a fairly distant one. The cycling McQuaids are descended from Jim McQuaid, who was born in Dungannon in 1920 but had to relocate to Dublin when he married a Protestant. John Charles was born in Cootehill in 1913, and his father was also a Cavan man. If there was any relationship between John Charles and Jim, they were at best first cousins, but I've never seen any suggestion of that, and as both men were fairly prominent in Dublin the 1940s and 1950s I'm sure it would have been mentioned at some point.

newacc2015

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You don't think the demolition of the largest church in the country, and its replacement with one one tenth of the size isn't a notable event or a significant marker of social change?

This is not social change. Working classes of Dublin always had poor mass attendance. Finglas only had one church built for the huge increase in population when they were building modern Finglas. Ballymun had one Church built for it when they threw tens of thousands into the area. Look at how massive Phisboro is and it has a single big Church. Working Class Dubliners were not religious, not even in the 1960s when they were moving them out to the suburbs.

Even 20 years ago mass attendance was poor in Finglas

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/bringing-spirituality-to-sisterhood-in-finglas-1.47410

Making this church smaller isnt a sign of social change. It is addressing the fact it was too big from day one.

There has been no major closures in middle class areas, as the middle classes of Dublin still go to mass. Some suburbs are full of churches and they haven't closed or merged any of them. When they start closing churches in Donnybrook, Glasnevin, Clontarf, Churchtown etc. That is a sign of social change.

Hotblack Desiato

newacc2015 wrote: »

Finglas only had one church built for the huge increase in population when they were building modern Finglas.

But nonetheless this church was huuuuge. The head shed had hopes at the time of filling it, however unrealistic those hopes may have turned out to be in practice.

Working Class Dubliners were not religious, not even in the 1960s when they were moving them out to the suburbs.

Arguably they became more 'churched' once they did. The RCC put massive efforts and strained its resources in the 70s to ensure the new suburbs like Tallaght got plenty of churches.

Even 20 years ago mass attendance was poor in Finglas

but this church was not built or planned 20 years ago, it was 50 years ago.

Making this church smaller isnt a sign of social change. It is addressing the fact it was too big from day one.

Perhaps, but 10 or 20 years ago they weren't proposing to reduce its size by 90%. They are now. That's significant, don't you think?

There has been no major closures in middle class areas, as the middle classes of Dublin still go to mass.

They don't really and haven't done for decades, but the RCC is still in massive denial and/or those who still go (in the wealthier areas) still throw enough onto the plate to allow them to continue to kick the can down the road.

donspeekinglesh

newacc2015 wrote: »

When they start closing churches in Donnybrook, Glasnevin, Clontarf, Churchtown etc. That is a sign of social change.

I know St Gabriel's in Clontarf has reduced the seating and number of masses from when I was a kid. Attendance is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago.

Stevecw

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

I know St Gabriel's in Clontarf has reduced the seating and number of masses from when I was a kid. Attendance is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago.

All Churches are struggling for numbers, which is great to see. But Polish and others from abroad are keeping the catholic mass going. My uncles play music at the local church and they say without the foreigners in Carlow nobody wud be at mass.

Samaris

I occasionally go to mass in a small town in Kerry (religious inlaws) and it is usually pretty full still. I can't neccessarily pick Polish or other cultures out in a crowd in a church, but I'd say most of them are Irish. My hometown has a pretty large church - I think, at least. Not sure how many it seats, but it certainly seems pretty big. I've not been in there for an ordinary mass in a long time, but I remember it being packed out on most Sundays some twenty years back. It has cut back on masses though, mostly due to a lack of priests. It's a town of about 10,000 people with a Catholic and and an CoI church. Pretty sure the CoI only has one mass a week though.

Although speaking of priests, chickens are coming home to roost a bit there. "We" spent so long hiking off to Africa and the east to Christianise people that as religion fails here, African countries are sending missionary priests back to re-Christianise us!

realdanbreen

Stevecw wrote: »

All Churches are struggling for numbers, which is great to see.

Why do you think that is great to see?

magicbastarder

Peregrinus wrote: »

If there is, I think it must be a fairly distant one. The cycling McQuaids are descended from Jim McQuaid, who was born in Dungannon in 1920 but had to relocate to Dublin when he married a Protestant. John Charles was born in Cootehill in 1913, and his father was also a Cavan man. If there was any relationship between John Charles and Jim, they were at best first cousins, but I've never seen any suggestion of that, and as both men were fairly prominent in Dublin the 1940s and 1950s I'm sure it would have been mentioned at some point.

cheers, i expected not, it was just a random musing.