Anyone else becoming terrified of Liberals.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

Well he not doing a good job getting his message across that America has to stop arming Jihadi fanatics in the Muslim world and when he turns around and tries to implement a travel ban gets a right kicking.

The idea that persons who oppose Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are somehow Islamophobic is a tired excuse from liberals who want to pretend that Pres Trump is a threat to American democracy.

Righty-o. Arming jihadis, Muslims, travel ban. Isis, Hamas, leberals...

Now what do you think will trump do about Chicago?

KingBrian2

MightyMandarin wrote: »

All I ever here from the same xenophobic people on this topic is 'Refugees means more terror, more refugees means more deaths' etc. but do you actually stop for a second and think, hang on, what about all those attacks caused by people with french, belgian, german passports? How is stopping the flow of refugees going to stop EU citizens committing these acts?

That's the tricky part the Jihadi's make it so difficult for counter terrorism experts to do their jobs. They want to incite culture clash between Muslim and non Muslim.

MightyMandarin

KingBrian2 wrote: »

That's the tricky part the Jihadi's make it so difficult for counter terrorism experts to do their jobs. They want to incite culture clash between Muslim and non Muslim.

Look who's falling for their trap!

They want the US and the western world to be seen to be anti-muslim so that they seem justified in the islamic world, and Trump, Wilders, Le Pen and all their supporters are playing right into their plan.

Whether you're pro or against letting refugees settle here, in any form or quantity, we can all agree ISIS and Jihadists need to be stopped. There's two ways to stop them: drain their resources and finances and stop their recruitment. The actions of the people I mentioned above and the general anti-islam attitude I see everywhere is helping ISIS and Jihadists, because if both sides create this 'Islam vs the world' image then which side do you think most muslims are going to swing to?

If we want to stop them, trust our authorities in the police and counter-terrorism to do their jobs, and in the meantime, make anyone who comes here legally feel welcome, because a sure way to make them hate us is to hate them first.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

I'd be shocked if he does anything useful to help the people of Chicago. What do you expect him to actually do beyond pointing to the black people as the problem?

KingBrian2 wrote:

It was the city authorities that have let the people down in Chicago and before we drag Trump into this quagmire it was Trump that highlighted the endemic gang violence in Chicago when Pres Obama was doing nothing down in D.C.
As for my comparisons with Iraq and Afghanistan it is not much of a gap between the two. Weapons in the hands of felons, entire regions not under gvt control. If the US worried more about the Mid West than the Arab world the gangs in Chicago would have far less impunity.

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

What's trump going to do?

KingBrian2 wrote:

Well he not doing a good job getting his message across that America has to stop arming Jihadi fanatics in the Muslim world and when he turns around and tries to implement a travel ban gets a right kicking.

KingBrian2 wrote:

The idea that persons who oppose Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are somehow Islamophobic is a tired excuse from liberals who want to pretend that Pres Trump is a threat to American democracy.

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

Now what do you think will trump do about Chicago?

I kept asking what you think trump will actually do about Chicago and you went all around the houses instead of attempt to address the question. You don't have a clue what he'll do to help the people of Chicago, do you? You just know you support it whatever it is. The tail is wagging the dog.

You could prove me wrong by making a prediction about what you think he will actually do to help the people in Chicago. Said what I think he'll do

KingBrian2

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I kept asking what you think trump will actually do about Chicago and you went all around the houses instead of attempt to address the question. You don't have a clue what he'll do to help the people of Chicago, do you? You just know you support it whatever it is. The tail is wagging the dog.

You could prove me wrong by making a prediction about what you think he will actually do to help the people in Chicago. Said what I think he'll do

We don't know what he will do because he has been concentrating on the refugee crisis and what we do know which the liberals won't admit is that Islamic terrorism has blighted the world. I hate to say this but liberals are looking at the human rights of Jihadi's instead of concentrating on the causes of Islamic terrorism.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

We don't know what he will do because...

You could have said that to begin with. Are you fairly sure you'll like whatever he does whenever he does it? Does he even have to do anything about it in your view?

Or has he done enough already by pointing out the trouble with the bloody ahem you-know-what-colour fellas?

listermint

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We don't know what he will do because he has been concentrating on the refugee crisis and what we do know which the liberals won't admit is that Islamic terrorism has blighted the world. I hate to say this but liberals are looking at the human rights of Jihadi's instead of concentrating on the causes of Islamic terrorism.

I think you'll find they are looking at the human rights of humans.

The sooner the world is rid of religious muck tribal ****e we can start exploring the universe and fulfill the potential of man kind.

Humans are capable of so much more than this insidious bickering

Widdershins

MightyMandarin wrote: »

because if both sides create this 'Islam vs the world' image then which side do you think most muslims are going to swing to?

Do you mean that most Muslims would join ISIS if they weren't made welcome?

I totally disagree about ''anti Islam''. In this day and age it's sensible to be critical of religions, especially such fast growing ones that have their own legal and political system.

You don't want the West to play into ISIS hands? Then we'd better stop drawing provocative cartoons, dressing how we please, kissing in public and marching in solidarity with gay people. We don't modify our behaviour to suit ISIS, do we?

Widdershins

What's going on in Chicago?

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

What's going on in Chicago?

Trump pointed out that there's a huge problem with gangs, guns and drugs (that's code for black lads causing trouble). Trump's fans are delighted that he pointed it out but they don't have a clue what he will do to solve the problem.

As far as I can see, pointing out problems with minorities is an integral part of making white Americans feel great again. He doesn't really need to do anything about the problem (policies can be messy to implement).

He just needs to keep pointing out the problem with black lads and be sure to back any white cops who shoot any blast lads in dubious circumstances. Job's oxo.

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Trump pointed out that there's a huge problem with gangs, guns and drugs (that's code for black lads causing trouble). Trump's fans are delighted that he pointed it out but they don't have a clue what he will do to solve the problem.

As far as I can see, pointing out problems with minorities is an integral part of making white Americans feel great again. He doesn't really need to do anything about the problem (policies can be messy to implement).

He just needs to keep pointing out the problem with black lads and be sure to back any white cops who shoot any blast lads in dubious circumstances. Job's oxo.

Thanks for clarifying.
I'd rather not be too pessimistic..
Hopefully he will do something constructive.
He promised to reform the school system in favour of underprivileged students, which would help in the longer term.

Brian?

Widdershins wrote: »

What's going on in Chicago?

I'm told it's a wonderful city to visit if you Blues music, BBQ and deep dish pizza. The Cubs also won the World Series last year.

There is some gun violence in the ghettos.

Widdershins

Brian? wrote: »

I'm told it's a wonderful city to visit if you Blues music, BBQ and deep dish pizza. The Cubs also won the World Series last year.

There is some gun violence in the ghettos.

I wouldn't go there..that's a mad place.

Brian?

Widdershins wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying.
I'd rather not be too pessimistic..
Hopefully he will do something constructive.
He promised to reform the school system in favour of underprivileged students, which would help in the longer term.

He promised to reform schools in favour of poor kids, great. A noble aspiration.

Then he nominated a Secretary for Education he doesn't think their should be a public school system.

Do not listen to what Trump says. Watch what he does.

Widdershins

Brian? wrote: »

He promised to reform schools in favour of poor kids, great. A noble aspiration.

Then he nominated a Secretary for Education he doesn't think their should be a public school system.

Do not listen to what Trump says. Watch what he does.

Yes, I am, or will be when the media madness subsides. As yet he and his secretary for ed haven't done anything to the contrary.

If you want to keep up to date, you need serious dedication for wading through the misinformation and hype around his every move and gesture.

RabbleRouser2k

To a degree, I have become nervous of them-and I have to say, I still hold 'liberal' beliefs, but some are conservative. What has disgusted me is how the so-called 'progressive' movement is so regressive.
'Free speech for all' has become 'free speech for some-the rest of you are 'haters'. And then we have people saying 'it's not in the public's interest' when you really have to allow the public to decide what is in their interest.
The 'progressive' movement has become almost offended for the sake of feeling offended. It's why some TV characters, like and I kid you not, Speedy Gonzalez, were shoved out of movies and reairing the cartoons because he was offensive to Mexicans. But the reason he was brought back was because Mexicans adored him.
There is far too much thought policing-telling people what they can and cannot believe in is ridiculous. Hell, they didn't even correctly monitor who they got to speak at the women's march-and look at the crazy people who turned up to that. A convicted murdering rapist, a person promoting bombing the white house, and someone who wants global sharia law.
No, that's crazy.
Its like if you have genuine fears, genuine concerns (not stuff like vaccines, for example) then you cannot talk about it.

MightyMandarin

Widdershins wrote: »

Do you mean that most Muslims would join ISIS if they weren't made welcome?

I totally disagree about ''anti Islam''. In this day and age it's sensible to be critical of religions, especially such fast growing ones that have their own legal and political system.

You don't want the West to play into ISIS hands? Then we'd better stop drawing provocative cartoons, dressing how we please, kissing in public and marching in solidarity with gay people. We don't modify our behaviour to suit ISIS, do we?

No, I mean that if we start acting like ISIS and convince the world that this is indeed a "Muslims v the World" war, well you're hardly going ton see recruitment fall with ISIS. If they're already that good at brainwashing young disenfranchised people, imagine what they could do with the general muslim public if we all took Trump's attitude.

Nothing wrong with being critical, but people denouncing a religion with almost 2bn followers as 'barbaric' is ridiculous. If it was a cult, fine, but Islam has been around for thousands of years. It's the same with Christianity; the fundamentalists, not the religion, is the problem.

You completely missed my point. The general muslim public like living here, certainly the ordinary ones living in Raqqa and Mosul will tell you that life under ISIS was ****e; no smoking, can't shave your beard etc.

By embracing an intolerant, xenophobic and islamophobic ideology we are actually modifying our behaviour based on ISIS. By sticking to the principles we hold up in our society of tolerance, respect and freedom we'll do more to hurt ISIS than any bomb or bullet. Islamophobes and Xenophobes are playing into ISIS' hands; they're being dragged into a scenario which they want and all the followers of Wilders, Trump and Le Pen are biting the bait and encouraging ISIS' sustainability or growth.

Zubeneschamali

Widdershins wrote: »

He promised to reform the school system in favour of underprivileged students, which would help in the longer term.

And then he appointed as Secretary of Education a billionaire who bought a place in his Cabinet and hates public schools.

Zubeneschamali

Widdershins wrote: »

Yes, I am, or will be when the media madness subsides.

That'll be January 2021.

MightyMandarin

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

And then he appointed as Secretary of Education a billionaire who bought a place in his Cabinet and hates public schools.

Don't forget it's the same woman who promised to turn the school system into "God's Kingdom" and believes guns should be allowed in schools " 'cause dem grizzly bears".

Zubeneschamali

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Don't forget it's the same woman who promised to turn the school system into "God's Kingdom" and believes guns should be allowed in schools " 'cause dem grizzly bears".

In fairness there have been no, zero grizzly bear attacks in schools since she was appointed, so it seems the bears got the message, bigly.

Widdershins

MightyMandarin wrote: »

No, I mean that if we start acting like ISIS and convince the world that this is indeed a "Muslims v the World" war, well you're hardly going ton see recruitment fall with ISIS. If they're already that good at brainwashing young disenfranchised people, imagine what they could do with the general muslim public if we all took Trump's attitude.

Nothing wrong with being critical, but people denouncing a religion with almost 2bn followers as 'barbaric' is ridiculous. If it was a cult, fine, but Islam has been around for thousands of years. It's the same with Christianity; the fundamentalists, not the religion, is the problem.

You completely missed my point. The general muslim public like living here, certainly the ordinary ones living in Raqqa and Mosul will tell you that life under ISIS was ****e; no smoking, can't shave your beard etc.

By embracing an intolerant, xenophobic and islamophobic ideology we are actually modifying our behaviour based on ISIS. By sticking to the principles we hold up in our society of tolerance, respect and freedom we'll do more to hurt ISIS than any bomb or bullet. Islamophobes and Xenophobes are playing into ISIS' hands; they're being dragged into a scenario which they want and all the followers of Wilders, Trump and Le Pen are biting the bait and encouraging ISIS' sustainability or growth.

I mostly agree with you except the duration of the religion has no bearing on its legitimacy or goodness and I don't think tolerance is always a good thing. Tolerance suggests putting up with things.
I don't see the wisdom in tolerating any oppressive or barbaric practices within any religion no matter how many adherents it has or how old it is. I don't think there's any xenophobic ideologies for us to embrace in Ireland but if there were I would not be rushing to do so.

On re-reading, I should say I agree strongly, we certainly should never give the impression we want some kind of war on Muslims. I should have been clearer in my agreement there.

I also wanted to point out that Islam is getting a glamorous makeover from some quarters, such as Linda Sarsour and her followers. She's a proponent of shariah law and iirc FGM! Now that is a perfect example of something that we should not extend tolerance to. You can of course respecctfully reject something without declaring war on the whole religion or culture or region it has been connected to in that instance.

Her treatment of other Muslim women especially apostates has been horrific and shameful.

Widdershins

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That'll be January 2021.

Haha. Then so be it. You'll get no sense out of the media as it is. I do not trust or believe them.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

Thanks for clarifying. I'd rather not be too pessimistic.. Hopefully he will do something constructive. He promised to reform the school system in favour of underprivileged students, which would help in the longer term.

Well as long as he promised...

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well as long as he promised...

Negativity will get us nowhere

StringerBell

Extremism on either side, left or right is always a concern. Mob mentality is not reserved for just one side, both feel 100% justified in their actions and totally sure they are the ones who should prevail. When you get to the fringes they are more willing to use any means to further their ends.

There is a huge reaction on the left in the US at the moment, it is for sure a very interesting and often terrifying time ahead but these things do ebb and flow so I wouldn't be unduly concerned just yet. Trump and his administration would still hold more concern for me overall as they are the ones holding the cards right now.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

Negativity will get us nowhere

Relying on promises will get us nowhere either.

Ask a trump supported for a prediction of what he'll do or what he should do and if they're honest they'll tell you they don't have a clue - but they'll like it whenever they find out what it is. It's dogmatic and it's worrying.

I don't think he'll do anything to help the people. He's making white Americans feel great again - feel greater than the scummy blacks causing all the trouble in Chicago at least. He doesn't have to do anything more. I'd be surprised if he does anything else to be honest.

johnp001

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Relying on promises will get us nowhere either.

Ask a trump supported for a prediction of what he'll do or what he should do and if they're honest they'll tell you they don't have a clue - but they'll like it whenever they find out what it is. It's dogmatic and it's worrying.

I don't think he'll do anything to help the people. He's making white Americans feel great again - feel greater than the scummy blacks causing all the trouble in Chicago at least. He doesn't have to do anything more. I'd be surprised if he does anything else to be honest.

He has already done a lot of the things he promised to do in the campaign.
Notably, getting rid of TPP and TTIP (which was a main plank of Sanders campaign too) and setting in motion repeal and replacement of Obamacare.
Obama campaigned on ending wars, closing guantanamo etc and did none of those things in 8 years.
You can agree or disagree what it is that Trump said he is going to do bit you can't fault him for setting about doing it right out of the gate.

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Relying on promises will get us nowhere either.

Ask a trump supported for a prediction of what he'll do or what he should do and if they're honest they'll tell you they don't have a clue - but they'll like it whenever they find out what it is. It's dogmatic and it's worrying.

I don't think he'll do anything to help the people. He's making white Americans feel great again - feel greater than the scummy blacks causing all the trouble in Chicago at least. He doesn't have to do anything more. I'd be surprised if he does anything else to be honest.

I know a couple of Trump supporters and I don't think they'd agree nor would they appreciate that depiction but I'm sure that doesn't bother you.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

I know a couple of Trump supporters and I don't think they'd agree nor would they appreciate that depiction but I'm sure that doesn't bother you.

Ask them what they think he'll do about Chicago and see what they say.

We need to wait and see whether he does. What he does has been established. He makes an inflammatory statement about a minority, then move on to the next issue.

There's nothing in this for the people affected by gun violence in Chicago.