What next for the undocumented Irish in the states?

Pkiernan

Undocumented, just more left wing not my fault bs.

Sure we all know that bank robbers are only making undocumented withdrawals with the assistance of undocumented firearms.

Peregrinus

TOss Sweep wrote: »

100% agree they are illegal and documented. Pet hate that people don't know the difference. Un-documented is someone who enters the country without passing through a border crossing and getting a stamp in their passport as in they have no document what so ever giving them access to the country. All of these Irish here are documented. They entered with their passports and got stamped and just never left.

. . . which is not illegal. So it may be true to say that they are "not undocumented", but it doesn't follow that they are "illegal".

The phrase "undocumented" doesn't, in this context, mean that someone has no documentation; it means they have no documentation which entitles them to remain in the United States. In that sense, visa overstayers are undocumented.

"Illegal" means you have broken the law. It could be that you committed a crime in the way in which you entered the United States, or it could be that, in your circumstances, it is a crime for you to be in the United States. Visa overstayers are not committing a crime in either sense, and therefore they are not "illegal".

TOss Sweep

Peregrinus wrote: »

. . . which is not illegal. So it may be true to say that they are "not undocumented", but it doesn't follow that they are "illegal".

The phrase "undocumented" doesn't, in this context, mean that someone has no documentation; it means they have no documentation which entitles them to remain in the United States. In that sense, visa overstayers are undocumented.

"Illegal" means you have broken the law. It could be that you committed a crime in the way in which you entered the United States, or it could be that, in your circumstances, it is a crime for you to be in the United States. Visa overstayers are not committing a crime in either sense, and therefore they are not "illegal".

Under US Immigration Law Visa Over stayers are still considered Illegal Immigrants or Unauthorized residents. You can argue the use of the word undocumented in whatever context you want it still doesn't change the fact that those who overstay their welcome are considered illegal immigrants.

TOss Sweep

Either way call them what you want they should be given no favors and be treated like anyone who didn't do it the right way. Send them packing.

Peregrinus

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Under US Immigration Law Visa Over stayers are still considered Illegal Immigrants or Unauthorized residents. You can argue the use of the word undocumented in whatever context you want it still doesn't change the fact that those who overstay their welcome are considered illegal immigrants.

I think you are mistaken. US immigration law doesn't use, or define, the term "illegal immigrant". It's a polemical term, used by advocates of tougher migration policies, to suggest that the people concerned have broken the law when, in fact, they may not have.

If you think I'm wrong, can you point me to the provision of the US Immigration and Nationality Act (or other relevant US law) which defines the term?

Jawgap

Peregrinus wrote: »

. . . which is not illegal. So it may be true to say that they are "not undocumented", but it doesn't follow that they are "illegal".

The phrase "undocumented" doesn't, in this context, mean that someone has no documentation; it means they have no documentation which entitles them to remain in the United States. In that sense, visa overstayers are undocumented.

"Illegal" means you have broken the law. It could be that you committed a crime in the way in which you entered the United States, or it could be that, in your circumstances, it is a crime for you to be in the United States. Visa overstayers are not committing a crime in either sense, and therefore they are not "illegal".

They have broken the law - the one that says leave when your visa is up

If you had a valid visa and you were just waiting for the paperwork to issue and the law allowed you to be present while waiting for said paperwork then you would be undocumented......if you've overstayed your visa, arrived on a tourist or study visit and breached the terms of the visa by working more than is allowed you have immigrated and are an immigrant engaged in activities not permitted by the law of the land - hence you are an illegal immigrant.

It's time for people to wear their big boy pants - they went there knowing exactly what they were doing and now seem to be demanding special treatment because, you know, Irish and all that! And the politicians here pander to that......good luck to anyone who is working there and I hope they do well, but don't whinge if you get caught.

Fr Tod Umptious

Peregrinus wrote: »

. . . which is not illegal. So it may be true to say that they are "not undocumented", but it doesn't follow that they are "illegal".

The phrase "undocumented" doesn't, in this context, mean that someone has no documentation; it means they have no documentation which entitles them to remain in the United States. In that sense, visa overstayers are undocumented.

"Illegal" means you have broken the law. It could be that you committed a crime in the way in which you entered the United States, or it could be that, in your circumstances, it is a crime for you to be in the United States. Visa overstayers are not committing a crime in either sense, and therefore they are not "illegal".

Most of the "undocumented" come over on visa waivers and then work and stay beyond the 90 days.

Once you work while in the US on the visa waiver you have committed "visa fraud" which surprise surprise is illegal.

TOss Sweep

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think you are mistaken. US immigration law doesn't use, or define, the term "illegal immigrant". It's a polemical term, used by advocates of tougher migration policies, to suggest that the people concerned have broken the law when, in fact, they may not have.

If you think I'm wrong, can you point me to the provision of the US Immigration and Nationality Act (or other relevant US law) which defines the term?

Undocumented/Illegal/Unauthorized call it what you want at this point it really doesn't matter as the thread is what happens next to these folk. When they decide not to go home they have unlawfully overstayed their welcome and should be sent home if caught the end.

If you want to get into a legal discussion about the words themselves be my guest. You are probably right but do I care enough to give a damn anymore? Nope. The thread asks what happens next and I have given my opinion so you have a cracking day good sir.

Peregrinus

Jawgap wrote: »

They have broken the law - the one that says leave when your visa is up

Mm-hm? Is that so? You want to maybe put up a link to the law which obliges you to leave when your visa is up?

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Once you work while in the US on the visa waiver you have committed "visa fraud" which surprise surprise is illegal.

You want to link to the law which creates and defines the offence of "visa fraud"?

No, didn't think so.

TOss Sweep wrote: »

If you want to get into a legal discussion about the words themselves be my guest.

Do I have to point out that you're the one whose fussing about words, objecting to "undocumented", and insisting that "illegal" is the correct term to use? I only came in in response to that. If you don't want to discuss which of these words is correct, you should probably stop making posts to discussion boards expressing views about which of these words is correct.

TOss Sweep wrote: »

You are probably right but do I care enough to give a damn anymore? Nope. The thread asks what happens next and I have given my opinion so you have a cracking day good sir.

I'm all for a discussion about how the undocumented should be dealt with but, please, don't attempt to poison the well by insisting that they can only be discussed in terms that suggest criminality and illegality, and then gather up your skirts and flounce away when you get called on it.

Jawgap

Peregrinus wrote: »

Mm-hm? Is that so? You want to maybe put up a link to the law which obliges you to leave when your visa is up?

......

The Immigration and Nationality Act makes 'failure to depart' a civil offence - presumably to make it easier to remove people when they are caught, given the lower burden of proof.

TOss Sweep

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do I have to point out that you're the one whose fussing about words, objecting to "undocumented", and insisting that "illegal" is the correct term to use? I only came in in response to that. If you don't want to discuss which of these words is correct, you should probably stop making posts to discussion boards expressing views about which of these words is correct.

I said you are probably right and with that as I said I have decided to move on from the subject and could care less derailing the thread any further over how the words should and shouldn't be used. If you choose to so be it.

I'm all for a discussion about how the undocumented should be dealt with but, please, don't attempt to poison the well by insisting that they can only be discussed in terms that suggest criminality and illegality, and then gather up your skirts and flounce away when you get called on it.

Poison the well? Classic. And I never insisted anything. And gather up my skirt? Oh boy another gem.

Who is the ones fussing about it now? Really sounds like someone is all hot and bothered by it. If you want to make yourself look like the big shot and point out how others are wrong and pound that chest of yours don't let me stop you.

Funny thing I have no problem accepting that if I am wrong about the word undocumented then I am wrong. But hey soldier on good buddy.

Peregrinus

TOss Sweep wrote: »

I said you are probably right and with that as I said I have decided to move on from the subject and could care less derailing the thread any further over how the words should and shouldn't be used . . .

If so, you have an odd way of showing it.

Killergreene

Hope Trump holds onto the law breakers. We can't afford to prop another 50k wasters on to the end of the dole queue.

TOss Sweep

Peregrinus wrote: »

If so, you have an odd way of showing it.

Sure. Have a Great Day!

lawred2

I struggle to understand why Irish politicians constantly feel the need to respond for calls on helping the undocumented Irish in the US..

Since when was supporting illegality a thing...

Jawgap

lawred2 wrote: »

I struggle to understand why Irish politicians constantly feel the need to respond for calls on helping the undocumented Irish in the US..

Since when was supporting illegality a thing...

Since there were votes in it here.

a lot of those 'undocumented' have mammies, daddies, nanas, grandads, uncles etc here.

.....plus there's probably votes in it too in the US in certain Congressional districts......I'm guessing you don't get elected to the Massachusett's 8th (Lynch-D) by using words like 'illegal' 'immigrant' and 'Irish' in the same sentence

Peregrinus

lawred2 wrote: »

I struggle to understand why Irish politicians constantly feel the need to respond for calls on helping the undocumented Irish in the US.

For the reason jawgap point out; there's votes in it at home.

On the other hand, take comfort in the thought that Irish politicians have no traction with Trump; he has no regard for the value of the US's relationships with other countries, and certainly not with Ireland. While Irish politicians may call for this or that, there is no reason to think that Trump will pay a blind bit of attention.

On the other other hand, Trump's stance on immigration is basically dog-whistle racism. Hating on Muslims serves his purposes well, hating on Hispanics quite well; hating on Irish, hardly at all. So, while he has no interest in placating Irish politicians, he also has no interest in hounding Irish people in the US. It's possible they'll get caught in the slipstream, as it were, of his measures against other migrants (assuming he takes any effective measure at all, that is), but they won't be targetted specifically.

rockonollie

In response to those that claim the illegal irish will be ok as long as they stay out of trouble (as has been the case for decades).....there's reports coming in from all across the US of ICE sweeps rounding up illegal immigrants (even ones without records)
Granted these sweeps have targeted mostly latino communities so far, it shows that this administration is taking a more proactive approach to illegal immigrants than in the past when deportations generally didn't happen until someone appeared in the court system for other reasons.

topmanamillion

lawred2 wrote: »

I struggle to understand why Irish politicians constantly feel the need to respond for calls on helping the undocumented Irish in the US..

Since when was supporting illegality a thing...

I'm no fan of Kenny but I do feel sympathy when he`s put up to this on Paddys day.
What's he supposed to say?
"Sorry there Donald, there`s a few of our lads here that didn't bother their hole getting a visa, if you throw them an auld visa there`ll always be a free bar for you and the missus in the Dail bar"

I`d like to know what the end goal of people who are pushing for him to discuss it with American politicians is.
Legalising illegal immigrants in America just isn't going to happen.

Jawgap

topmanamillion wrote: »

I'm no fan of Kenny but I do feel sympathy when he`s put up to this on Paddys day.
What's he supposed to say?
"Sorry there Donald, there`s a few of our lads here that didn't bother their hole getting a visa, if you throw them an auld visa there`ll always be a free bar for you and the missus in the Dail bar"

I`d like to know what the end goal of people who are pushing for him to discuss it with American politicians is.
Legalising illegal immigrants in America just isn't going to happen.

Yeah, it's a hard ol' station he has......all those hours in the government jet, the wining, the dining and then he has to do something as unspeakable as an empty political gesture......

......sure a nurse in A&E on Saturday night has it easy compared to that.

Put it this way, any time he finds it all too onerous he can resign, walk away and get a pension equivalent to an amount the vast majority of us will never see as a salary.

topmanamillion

Jawgap wrote: »

Yeah, it's a hard ol' station he has......all those hours in the government jet, the wining, the dining and then he has to do something as unspeakable as an empty political gesture......

......sure a nurse in A&E on Saturday night has it easy compared to that.

Put it this way, any time he finds it all too onerous he can resign, walk away and get a pension equivalent to an amount the vast majority of us will never see as a salary.

As I said I'm no fan of Kenny but its still an unenvious position that the Irish electorate are pushing him into and quite frankly it reflects poorly on the country as a whole.
He is our a head of state after all.

Jawgap

topmanamillion wrote: »

As I said I'm no fan of Kenny but its still an unenvious position that the Irish electorate are pushing him into and quite frankly it reflects poorly on the country as a whole.
He is our a head of state after all.

Yes and he wasn't dragooned into doing it.

Very few of us have the luxury of being able to walk away from our jobs without any consequences. TDs generally have fallback options, for example Enda was a teacher before inherited his seat got elected. Nothing to stop him doing that.

And he only raises such issues because of votes and expediency......he could always show some actual leadership and stand on his principles if he feels being populist is inherently wrong.

First Up

Jawgap wrote:

And he only raises such issues because of votes and expediency......he could always show some actual leadership and stand on his principles if he feels being populist is inherently wrong.

Your plan being......?

Jawgap

First Up wrote: »

Your plan being......?

No plan, aside from they made their bed they can lie in it.

I don't think Enda deserves any sympathy simply because he does something populist.

él statutorio

topmanamillion wrote: »

As I said I'm no fan of Kenny but its still an unenvious position that the Irish electorate are pushing him into and quite frankly it reflects poorly on the country as a whole.
He is our a head of state after all.

Michael D might disagree with you on that one.

First Up

Jawgap wrote:

I don't think Enda deserves any sympathy simply because he does something populist.

You seem to harbour very hostile feelings towards Kenny. Other than gloating at him being in a difficult position, do you have any specific criticisms/suggestions?

Jawgap

First Up wrote: »

You seem to harbour very hostile feelings towards Kenny. Other than gloating at him being in a difficult position, do you have any specific criticisms/suggestions?

Well I'm not sure it's for this thread, but I'm not gloating simply pointing out the actuality of his position.

Wouldn't it be great, especially in the current climate, if we had politicians who led and took principled positions, rather than just pander?

First Up

Jawgap wrote:

Wouldn't it be great, especially in the current climate, if we had politicians who led and took principled positions, rather than just pander?

Good idea. Which positions would you like to see him take?

Jawgap

First Up wrote: »

Good idea. Which positions would you like to see him take?

On the topic to hand?

Simple, "you made your bed, lie in it. You shouldn't be treated any less or more favourably than any other illegal immigrant."

First Up

Jawgap wrote:

Simple, "you made your bed, lie in it. You shouldn't be treated any less or more favourably than any other illegal immigrant."

Fair enough. He may not put it in quite those terms but do you suspect he will say something different?