Time for Dublin Bus to sell Donnybrook Depot?

Bray Head

The Irish Times is reporting that RTÉ is planning to sell half of its Donnybrook site, potentially yielding €70m for 15 acres. Rounding down a little, this gives €4.5m per acre.

Right across the road is a large site owned by Dublin Bus. I calculate it at seven acres. During the night it stores buses. During the day it is mostly empty. 

It is not a very efficient use of land. Private operators do not have depots anywhere nearly as close to the city centre where land is so valuable.

Isn't it time to sell up? Seven acres at €4.5m each is €31.5m. This could easily pay for a bigger and better depot further south along the N11, with plenty left over. Staff would also face much lower housing costs too.

We all know that DB management is not particularly dynamic in this regard (they sat on their city centre property through the last boom too). Does the NTA have any role in forcing sensible asset management by the CIÉ companies?

loyatemu

Bray Head wrote: »

This could easily pay for a bigger and better depot further south along the N11, with plenty left over.

Where? Land along the N11 is among the most expensive in the country, any replacement site would also be very expensive to buy and they presumably can't go too far south for operational reasons.

LeinsterDub

loyatemu wrote: »

Where? Land along the N11 is among the most expensive in the country, any replacement site would also be very expensive to buy and they presumably can't go too far south for operational reasons.

Cherrywood?

Alun

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Cherrywood?

Already taken ...

http://www.cherrywooddublin.com/masterplan/

LeinsterDub

Alun wrote: »

Already taken ...

http://www.cherrywooddublin.com/masterplan/

There is a greenfield site across the road

prunudo

Does it not make more sense to have buses stored in a central location. Why move it out to the suburbs where the buses will get stuck in traffic getting to their starting location.

ted1

jvan wrote: »

Does it not make more sense to have buses stored in a central location. Why move it out to the suburbs where the buses will get stuck in traffic getting to their starting location.

And have additional fuel costs each day aswell.

I'm sure that they could better utilise the site and reduce the size and possible sell the air rights above the land they do need and sell whatever land they free up.

CIARAN_BOYLE

jvan wrote: »

Does it not make more sense to have buses stored in a central location. Why move it out to the suburbs where the buses will get stuck in traffic getting to their starting location.

Ringsend and Clontarf depots are fairly central as well.

More of a problem imo is that some busses don't use depots near their starting location since network direct came in.

I believe dublin bus should undertake a comprehensive view of the depots they use, determine their operational needs and disinvestment themselves of one or more of their central depots.

Mongfinder General

I wouldn't put a kennel in Cherrywood.

ted1

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I wouldn't put a kennel in Cherrywood.

Strange comment, whys that ?
Especially as they are putting in close to 4000 homes , a new town centre , several schools snd parks etc

RacoonQueen

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Ringsend and Clontarf depots are fairly central as well.

And Conyngham Road. They were meant to build a terminus up by Liffey Valley ~10 years ago, never happened.

Mongfinder General

ted1 wrote: »

Strange comment, whys that ?
Especially as they are putting in close to 4000 homes , a new town centre , several schools snd parks etc

In Cherrywood, Clondalkin?

markpb

Mongfinder General wrote:

In Cherrywood, Clondalkin?

Wrong Cherrywood. The others are referencing a windswept, partially abandoned site in south county Dublin which is between the N11 and Green Luas.

markpb

+1

The sites are valuable financially and operationally. Rebuilding them elsewhere would be a waste of money. Partnering with a developer to build on top could be a great financial stream for the future.

I'd be less keen on selling any part of the sites though. Once sold, they might never be able to be repurchased which means no expansion in years to come.

Mongfinder General

markpb wrote: »

Wrong Cherrywood. The others are referencing a windswept, partially abandoned site in south county Dublin which is between the N11 and Green Luas.

Oh. I beg your pardon. Cherrywood in Clondalkin is a serious kipp

ted1

Mongfinder General wrote: »

In Cherrywood, Clondalkin?

No it's in south Dublin

newacc2015

I dont think they should be sold. The NTMA should use the pension reserve fund to build the housing/offices above them and keep the steady revenue stream for the taxpayer. I can't see too many people being happy to live above a bus depot. Is there anywhere in UCD, that the buses could be stored? Pay UCD a rent from the revenue the state will get from the development of the former bus depot.

If there is any depot that should be redeveloped, it is the one off Mountjoy sq. It is only a few kilometers to Harristown and housing is badly needed in the city centre.

IMO there is little point redeveloping these sites to put 4/5 storey apartment blocks. If you are building so close to the city, it should 6-12 storeys minimum. But that it is not possible at the moment.

CIARAN_BOYLE

The problem is there a difference between storage functions of the depots and maintenance which I presume also goes on in these depots.

Perhaps you could rent a half dozen mini depots in schools gated car parks as overnight depots and have smaller depots for maintenance.

Bray Head

Here are two potential locations for the depot:
Cherrywood: at end of Wyattville Link Road: 
Woodbrook: at end of link road to old Bray road: 

The Cherrywood location would be no worse for the 46A 145 routes. An added benefit might be getting rid of the Bray depot which has a value too.


The idea of constructing above the depot makes sense. Probably not apartments but I have seen office and retail space above bus terminals in some cities.

ted1

Bray Head wrote: »

Here are two potential locations for the depot:
Cherrywood: at end of Wyattville Link Road: 
Woodbrook: at end of link road to old Bray road: 

The Cherrywood location would be no worse for the 46A 145 routes. An added benefit might be getting rid of the Bray depot which has a value too.


The idea of constructing above the depot makes sense. Probably not apartments but I have seen office and retail space above bus terminals in some cities.

That cherrywood site is earmarked for development and would be wasted with a depot. It wouldn't solve a problem.

Bray Head

ted1 wrote: »

That cherrywood site is earmarked for development and would be wasted with a depot. It wouldn't solve a problem.

My point is that Donnybrook (where land values are higher) is also wasted with a depot!

A Cherrywood location could help re-orient the network somewhat and provide better connectivity to the Green Luas.

DB will also have to serve the area too when the high-density development takes place in the next few years.

DB workers would also presumably appreciate the cheaper housing costs the further you get from the city centre.

ted1

Bray Head wrote: »

My point is that Donnybrook (where land values are higher) is also wasted with a depot!

A Cherrywood location could help re-orient the network somewhat and provide better connectivity to the Green Luas.

DB will also have to serve the area too when the high-density development takes place in the next few years.

DB workers would also presumably appreciate the cheaper housing costs the further you get from the city centre.

They can link bus routes with the green line, don't see how having a couple of hundred out of service busses would help there.

What has house prices got to do with anything ? Dublin bus are residential property owners

Sam Russell

Isn't the Donneybrook bus depot a protected structure?

Bray Head

ted1 wrote: »

What has house prices got to do with anything ? 

Presumably DB staff would appreciate the lower housing costs you find further from the city centre.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Isn't the Donneybrook bus depot a protected structure?

I looked at the list and it only has Broadstone and Clontarf (bizarrely) on it.

ted1

Bray Head wrote: »

Presumably DB staff would appreciate the lower housing costs you find further from the city centre.



I looked at the list and it only has Broadstone and Clontarf (bizarrely) on it.

Do you think houses along the green LUAS line in South Dublin are any cheaper?

Once again how does it affect Dublin Bus, they are under no obligation to house staff.

For what it's worth I commute from south Dublin to the airport by bike daily. I don't think staff would move.

Beer Assistant

jvan wrote: »

Does it not make more sense to have buses stored in a central location. Why move it out to the suburbs where the buses will get stuck in traffic getting to their starting location.

Starting location's /terminus are out in the suburbs, buses travel out to these from the city empty every morning so having a bus garage further out would be more efficient. Also DB own a rather large piece of land out at Grangecastle which was/is ment to be used to relocate some inner city bus garage's, no sign of this happening any day soon though.

L1011

Bray Head wrote: »

Presumably DB staff would appreciate the lower housing costs you find further from the city centre.



I looked at the list and it only has Broadstone and Clontarf (bizarrely) on it.

Clontarf is a very old building behind the nasty facade - from the rear here

And they've listed the gates of Ringsend also.

Ringsend is the one I could see going for redevelopment soonest of any; but Donnybrook and Clontarf are on extremely dear land too.

Idbatterim

couldnt they have a temporary depo on the rte land? Excavate a massive basement for bus garage and apartment parking, have the entrance to the underground right at the entrance to development or have a seperate entrance for the buses and other traffic?

Bray Head

Beer Assistant wrote: »

Also DB own a rather large piece of land out at Grangecastle which was/is ment to be used to relocate some inner city bus garage's, no sign of this happening any day soon though.

I did not know that.

Where is it exactly?

Stephen15

I reckon the old ferry terminal in Dun Laoghaire would make a good enough small bus depot or maybe a bus station for routes out of Dun Laoghaire so people could have a proper place to wait for buses with a coffee shop, real time info, ticket/leap card top machines to save cash transactions and facility for drivers to take breaks etc.this seems like a common arrangement on the continent and in the uk. Or even it have double up as a place for buses to be stabled overnight.

ted1

Stephen15 wrote: »

I reckon the old ferry terminal in Dun Laoghaire would make a good enough small bus depot or maybe a bus station for routes out of Dun Laoghaire so people could have a proper place to wait for buses with a coffee shop, real time info, ticket/leap card top machines to save cash transactions and facility for drivers to take breaks etc.this seems like a common arrangement on the continent and in the uk. Or even it have double up as a place for buses to be stabled overnight.

Rather than a car park I could think of a million better things that they could use the terminal for that would enhance the area.

L1011

Terminal is up for rent on a 10 year lease (shows zero expectation of every resuming services) at the moment actually.

Stephen15

Are quite a lot of the bus depots in Dublin former tram yards

LXFlyer

Why do people keep coming with ideas like this based solely on the notion that selling assets simply to generate money is a good idea? Surely that lesson should be learnt from Spencer Dock?

First of all, I'd point out that buses start and finish their days at both ends of the routes, not just at the outer termini as people seem to think. Also, while most buses are used all day long, a significant number are only used during the morning and evening peaks to boost capacity, and these then return to the depot from the city centre to layover till they are required in the afternoon/evening in the city centre once again.

Therefore having garages at locations that allow easy access to both ends of the route is of strategic importance. Donnybrook is ideally located with two fast routes to/from the city centre to allow for buses to start/finish (Ballsbridge and N11), and is right beside the N11 allowing fast access to the southeast of the city.

Closing Donnybrook would mean most of the morning/evening peak extras having significant extra dead running to/from the depots, as would all of the last inbound buses from outer termini.

Donnybrook routes stretch as far north as DCU and Beaumont as well as the city centre, that's a long way for buses to have to go empty from somewhere like Cherrywood to start up.

I would strongly suggest that the amount of dead running necessary to operate the service would increase as a result of this idea.

Talk of drivers finding cheaper places to live is totally irrelevant - bus drivers in Donnybrook live all over the city - not in Donnybrook itself. Most of them drive to/from the depot and I imagine the sizeable number living northside wouldn't take too kindly to this idea.

Developing new routes is not dependent upon garage locations - they will be developed based on demand and bus and driver availability.

By all means a new depot to the west of the city at Grangecastle should be developed, but the depots near the city are also needed as the fleet continues to expand, and because they facilitate buses starting and finishing in the city centre.

But this notion that a strategically important asset such as Donnybrook Garage (and for that matter Broadstone Depot) should be sold simply because of a potential one-off monetary gain is fundamentally flawed.

And what is the point of having a poll with hidden results????

punisher5112

Terrible idea of selling off public assets.

Ireland will soon be all privately owned if powers that be had their way.

Its actually crazy and sad.

We should be keeping as much in the public domain as possible.

Comparison of db and rte is mad as they are running it paying huge money out and getting not a lot in return.
Rte is ran so bad and they really shouldnt be allowed to sell off any public owned assets its madness.

That money will fizzle away quicker then getting it.

stop

lxflyer wrote: »

Why do people keep coming with ideas like this based solely on the notion that selling assets simply to generate money is a good idea? Surely that lesson should be learnt from Spencer Dock?

How much did IE get for the sale of the land there? Seems like a massive amount of land which has been well developed, yet IE are broke.

LXFlyer

stop wrote: »

How much did IE get for the sale of the land there? Seems like a massive amount of land which has been well developed, yet IE are broke.

Land that could have been used to develop a railway asset.

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

Why do people keep coming with ideas like this based solely on the notion that selling assets simply to generate money is a good idea? Surely that lesson should be learnt from Spencer Dock?

Like any wholly state-owned enterprise, DB should have a focus on getting value for the taxpayer. Donnybrook bus depot is just a depot. It is not a bus station, which clearly benefits from a city centre location.

lxflyer;102459384First of all, I'd point out that buses start and finish their days at both ends of the routes, not just at the outer termini as people seem to think. Also, while most buses are used all day long, a significant number are only used during the morning and evening peaks to boost capacity, and these then return to the depot from the city centre to layover till they are required in the afternoon/evening in the city centre once again.

Therefore having garages at locations that allow easy access to both ends of the route is of strategic importance. Donnybrook is ideally located with two fast routes to/from the city centre to allow for buses to start/finish (Ballsbridge and N11), and is right beside the N11 allowing fast access to the southeast of the city.

Closing Donnybrook would mean most of the morning/evening peak extras having significant extra dead running to/from the depots, as would all of the last inbound buses from outer termini.

Donnybrook routes stretch as far north as DCU and Beaumont as well as the city centre, that's a long way for buses to have to go empty from somewhere like Cherrywood to start up.

I would strongly suggest that the amount of dead running necessary to operate the service would increase as a result of this idea.

You are of course right on the issue of dead running. But is the current configuration of depots optimal? DB serves a radius roughly 25km of the city centre. But three of its six depots are within the canals and two within the M50. More suburban depot locations might help with the provision of more orbital routes too.

lxflyer;102459384Developing new routes is not dependent upon garage locations - they will be developed based on demand and bus and driver availability.

This contradicts your point about dead running. If dead running is an issue then clearly the location of a depot does influence the routes on offer.

lxflyer;102459384Talk of drivers finding cheaper places to live is totally irrelevant - bus drivers in Donnybrook live all over the city - not in Donnybrook itself. Most of them drive to/from the depot and I imagine the sizeable number living northside wouldn't take too kindly to this idea.

My point on cheaper housing has been misunderstood. The average cost of housing within a 30-minute drive of Cherrywood is appreciably cheaper than that within a similar distance of Donnybrook. Bus drivers are people, and people like cheap housing. Sure, it would not suit every bus driver currently employed, but a suburban location would in the long run attract more applicants at a given wage.

lxflyer;102459384And what is the point of having a poll with hidden results????

Apologies, I am new to this. I will try to fix.

Mod: I have opened the display of the results.

newacc2015

punisher5112 wrote: »

Terrible idea of selling off public assets.

Ireland will soon be all privately owned if powers that be had their way.

What if the state redeveloped them and continued to own them? Like the way the various universities have been redeveloped and continue to be owned by the state. We could provide thousands of homes in the centre of the city and the taxpayer will gain from it. Not a fund.

Even if the lands are sold, the state will own the lease and the taxpayer will own them again in 50-100 years. CIE are thinking about this at Tara St station

What a terrible idea is thinking having a bus depot in the wealthiest part of Dublin is the best thing to society as private ownership is just 'sad'. So is Dubliners no having places to live, but it is not the biggest issues for some people.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

Like any wholly state-owned enterprise, DB should have a focus on getting value for the taxpayer. Donnybrook bus depot is just a depot. It is not a bus station, which clearly benefits from a city centre location.

You are of course right on the issue of dead running. But is the current configuration of depots optimal? DB serves a radius roughly 25km of the city centre. But three of its six depots are within the canals and two within the M50. More suburban depot locations might help with the provision of more orbital routes too.

This contradicts your point about dead running. If dead running is an issue then clearly the location of a depot does influence the routes on offer.

My point on cheaper housing has been misunderstood. The average cost of housing within a 30-minute drive of Cherrywood is appreciably cheaper than that within a similar distance of Donnybrook. Bus drivers are people, and people like cheap housing. Sure, it would not suit every bus driver currently employed, but a suburban location would in the long run attract more applicants at a given wage.

I am going to repeat myself here - Donnybrook depot serves a mass of routes that stretch across the city - as such it is a strategic location for operating a bus service efficiently as it facilitates access to both ends of the routes it operates relatively easily.

I am not disagreeing with about the premise of opening more depots in outer locations. That is a good idea in itself (and will happen if the orbital routes go to another operator as they will have to provide their own facilities), but with the city bus fleet expanding, and likely to continue to do so for some time, any such depots really should be additional ones, rather than replacing existing depots.

Regarding new routes, the NTA dictate what routes are on offer and what the service levels on those routes must be, rather than Dublin Bus or the operator. The individual operator's garage locations have nothing to do with that.

Bray Head

I am not suggesting that DB needs some city centre storage facilities. I am just not convinced that it needs as many.
From what I can tell there is no incentive or disincentive for DB to use land efficiently, and that is a problem.
Aircoach could presumably look for a city centre storage location as it would be strategically located mid-way along its routes. It stores its coaches near the airport though. Presumably because rent is cheaper there than it is just off O'Connell St.
The contrast is that Aircoach faces hard financial constraints and DB doesn't.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

I am not suggesting that DB needs some city centre storage facilities. I am just not convinced that it needs as many.
From what I can tell there is no incentive or disincentive for DB to use land efficiently, and that is a problem.
Aircoach could presumably look for a city centre storage location as it would be strategically located mid-way along its routes. It stores its coaches near the airport though. Presumably because rent is cheaper there than it is just off O'Connell St.
The contrast is that Aircoach faces hard financial constraints and DB doesn't.

All Aircoach routes start and finish at the Airport - it has no dead running to/from termini. That analogy isn't the same as a city bus operator.

And Donnybrook is not a city centre garage - it is in the south city beside a major arterial route and within a short distance of both ends of many of its routes. It would be one of the last of any of the existing locations that I would consider for closure due to its strategic location operationally.

With respect, I think that you are really just creating more problems than you would solve with this idea from an operational perspective. You need to understand the entire nature of how the city bus service works operationally to base decisions like this on, which, with respect, I don't think you do (and I wouldn't expect you to).

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect, I think that you are really just creating more problems than you would solve with this idea from an operational perspective. You need to understand the entire nature of how the city bus service works operationally to base decisions like this on, which, with respect, I don't think you do (and I wouldn't expect you to).

I am curious as to know how much of Dublin Bus's staff time and fuel is currently spent on dead running (not that I would expect you to know).

Stephen15

Bray Head wrote: »

I am curious as to know how much of Dublin Bus's staff time and fuel is currently spent on dead running (not that I would expect you to know).

Does really matter you could argue the same about driving home from a place you are wasting fuel as you aren't going anywhere productive. You say the same about Guards driving back to the station from a crime scene. You know buses don't magically in terminus or back in depots it's a bit of a riddiculous comment to make

L1011

Stephen15 wrote: »

Are quite a lot of the bus depots in Dublin former tram yards

Yes. As the DUTC moved from being a tram operator to a bus operator primarily before it merged to CIE.

dublinman1990

I'm pretty skeptical of this idea to be honest.

I would say Donnybrook has a purpose of remaining where it is now because it nearer to DCC.

If Dublin Bus or the NTA built the Cherrywood depot & put the 7 or 7a out there; the bus routes could possibly be required to only do dead runs to Brides Glen & Loughlinstown all the time instead of empty dead runs between Cherrywood & Mountjoy Square because of quicker start times. I don't know how a process like this from a new permanent depot built in Cherrywood could work in a useful way.

It probably never work at all if those routes are required to start & finish from their termini as they are working from Donnybrook.

Sam Russell

Why cannot routes start and end near the depot? Why dead run at all? For example, why not run the 7 down Ailesbury Road, turn left or right and start there?

Dead running is a waste of fuel.

0lddog

In large cities in Europe I see major bus stations with depot and light maintenance functions.
When was the last time that a bus station was built in Dublin ?


Also, this carry-on of littering the streets with bus termini belongs to 60 years ago.
What other counties in Europe go on like this these days ?

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why cannot routes start and end near the depot? Why dead run at all? For example, why not run the 7 down Ailesbury Road, turn left or right and start there?

Dead running is a waste of fuel.

Because Ailesbury road isint in the the cc where majority of bus users believe it or not most bus user still want to go to town.

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Because Ailesbury road isint in the the cc where majority of bus users believe it or not most bus user still want to go to town.

Your missing my point.

Why dead run when you can pick up paying passengers on the way?

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

Your missing my point.

Why dead run when you can pick up paying passengers on the way?

Because it would create to much hassle having buses randomly appear only going as far as a depot not on anyfd written timetable or anything like that. It would un-nessecary confusion and time amongst both staff and passengers.