Snugborough Interchange Upgrade

daymobrew

FCC is proposing a significant upgrade of the big Snugborough Road junction.

• Upgrading of existing five-arm signalised junction at Snugborough Rd./N3 off-ramp/L3020/Main St. including widening of all road approaches, provision of new high quality pedestrian/cyclist facilities and new public transport priority measures.
• Removal of right hand turning movement from Waterville onto the Snugborough Road.
• Removal of existing roundabout at Snugborough Rd/N3 on-ramp/Waterville and construction of 2 new signalised junctions in its place.
• Construction of new bridge structures over the N3 and over the Tolka Valley and river.
• Construction of infrastructure to facilitate diversion of the existing 1200mm diameter 9C foul sewer.
• Existing ramped access to Tolka Valley Park to be replaced with access at similar grade.

IrishCycle.com wrote about it and how it is not following design guidelines.

Submissions can be made online until 23 February.

athtrasna

As someone living in Waterville that sounds horrendous!

amtc

I live on Waterville. This is nuts!

daymobrew

amtc wrote: »

I live on Waterville. This is nuts!

I think that Waterville residents will be able to turn left as usual (towards the Centre or the village). To turn right onto Snugborough Road will involve coming out on the northern side of the estate, close to the Aquatic Centre.

I'm curious, can you elaborate on why it is nuts?

athtrasna

daymobrew wrote: »

I think that Waterville residents will be able to turn left as usual (towards the Centre or the village). To turn right onto Snugborough Road will involve coming out on the northern side of the estate, close to the Aquatic Centre.

I'm curious, can you elaborate on why it is nuts?

Because there are already traffic problems at both traffic access points from Waterville to the Snugborough Road and this plan looks like the council don't care if it affects us if it will make things better for everyone else

daymobrew

athtrasna wrote: »

Because there are already traffic problems at both traffic access points from Waterville to the Snugborough Road and this plan looks like the council don't care if it affects us if it will make things better for everyone else

Thanks for the explanation.
Be sure to make a submission highlighting these issues. If you can suggest alternate implementations it would be good (so that you can later say "I told you so" to them).

athtrasna

Made my submission last night. Only 8 online submissions at that stage. Shocked at the apathy!

daymobrew

athtrasna wrote: »

Made my submission last night. Only 8 online submissions at that stage. Shocked at the apathy!

You'll get over the shock :-)
If you look at the other consultations many are single digits.

The url to submit changed since I posted it. It is now: https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/proposed-part-viii-snugborough-interchange-upgrade (they changed xiii to viii).

There are 13 submissions now. It seems that I cannot read the submissions - I may have to make a submission to read the others.

daymobrew

athtrasna wrote: »

Made my submission last night.

Would you be able to post your submission here so that it might encourage others to make a submission. Or PM a copy to me to inspire me.

athtrasna

daymobrew wrote: »

Would you be able to post your submission here so that it might encourage others to make a submission. Or PM a copy to me to inspire me.

Are you in Waterville? My entire submission is about their preposterous plans for the roundabout at the bottom of Waterville and subsequent traffic diversions. Thousands of people live in Waterville but it appears we don't matter

Larbre34

Ye need to get the public reps on board about this, plenty of agitation of the ward Councillors, if you go about it the right way 8 or 10 submissions from Waterville can have the effect of hundreds. Ask for a public information meeting

athtrasna

Larbre34 wrote: »

Ye need to get the public reps on board about this, plenty of agitation of the ward Councillors, if you go about it the right way 8 or 10 submissions from Waterville can have the effect of hundreds. Ask for a public information meeting

Roderic O'Gorman has been very helpful and did a leaflet drop letting everyone know what's going on. Hadn't contacted the other helpful councillors yet but will do that.

daymobrew

athtrasna wrote: »

Are you in Waterville?

No, but any submission I would make should still be considered.

Did you propose an alternate solution? It's always good to do this.

Gio2

I've already send in my submission, But just saw an info leaflet in window of Spar Waterville. Hopefully it will encourage more residents to make a submission

daymobrew

Is anyone willing to post their submission here, to give others some ideas?

ongarboy

daymobrew wrote: »

Is anyone willing to post their submission here, to give others some ideas?

Why do people need ideas handed or prompted to them though? Surely if someone has a natural grievance or issue to the proposed plans or will be tangibly impacted by them, they can easily articulate them accordingly in their own observation/objections rather than copying others observations that may or may not affect them. I'm struggling to understand why someone would object to something but then say they can't think of reasons or ideas why.... ??!!

jack presley

ongarboy wrote: »

Why do people need ideas handed or prompted to them though? Surely if someone has a natural grievance or issue to the proposed plans or will be tangibly impacted by them, they can easily articulate them accordingly in their own observation/objections rather than copying others observations that may or may not affect them. I'm struggling to understand why someone would object to something but then say they can't think of reasons or ideas why.... ??!!

I'd say it's to get an idea of how to format and present the document as opposed to the actual grievance? Obviously a well structured argument laid out properly will have more of an impact than some haphazard list of complaints and if you haven't made an objection to something before or written something like this, it might not be as easy to articulate as you suggest and it would be useful to see how others have laid out their submission.

daymobrew

ongarboy wrote: »

Why do people need ideas handed or prompted to them though? Surely if someone has a natural grievance or issue to the proposed plans or will be tangibly impacted by them, they can easily articulate them accordingly in their own observation/objections rather than copying others observations that may or may not affect them. I'm struggling to understand why someone would object to something but then say they can't think of reasons or ideas why.... ??!!

Other submissions may discuss additional impacts that I may not have thought about but would also have concerns about. I would not copy observations that I did not agree with.

And what jack presley said.

ongarboy

I wasn't thinking of it from that angle - that makes sense alright!:)

blanch152

ongarboy wrote: »

Why do people need ideas handed or prompted to them though? Surely if someone has a natural grievance or issue to the proposed plans or will be tangibly impacted by them, they can easily articulate them accordingly in their own observation/objections rather than copying others observations that may or may not affect them. I'm struggling to understand why someone would object to something but then say they can't think of reasons or ideas why.... ??!!

completely agree with this, there is nothing worse than people just copying and pasting an objection and putting it in just for the sake of it.

Independent thinking seems to be a thing of the past.

athtrasna

All closed now. Fingers crossed the council see sense

Former Former

athtrasna wrote: »

All closed now. Fingers crossed the council see sense

I can see why someone in Waterville might not be happy with the aspects on their side of it, but overall that junction is a nightmare and widening the approach roads should make a big difference, so I'm happy enough with it.

blanch152

Former Former wrote: »

I can see why someone in Waterville might not be happy with the aspects on their side of it, but overall that junction is a nightmare and widening the approach roads should make a big difference, so I'm happy enough with it.

Problem is that the vast majority of people who are happy with something aren't listened to by councillors as they don't say anything, whereas the small numbers of NIMBYs and narrow-focussed protestors get a hearing because they organise a small number of highly motivated objectors.

lucernarian

I don't see how approach roads would be widened, especially on Main St. to Blanchardstown and then Snugborough Road past the centre. The Waterville issue does seem fairly severe - which road has the longest delays and most congestion on its approach?

athtrasna

blanch152 wrote: »

Problem is that the vast majority of people who are happy with something aren't listened to by councillors as they don't say anything, whereas the small numbers of NIMBYs and narrow-focussed protestors get a hearing because they organise a small number of highly motivated objectors.

There are thousands of people in Waterville, we're not narrow focused we just want to be able to get out of our estate!

The second bridge over the N3 will be fantastic but we shouldn't have to suffer for it!

lucernarian

athtrasna wrote: »

There are thousands of people in Waterville, we're not narrow focused we just want to be able to get out of our estate!

The second bridge over the N3 will be fantastic but we shouldn't have to suffer for it!

In fairness it's not the only entrance? "Suffering" is not what I'd call it.

athtrasna

lucernarian wrote: »

In fairness it's not the only entrance? "Suffering" is not what I'd call it.

At the moment you can go out at the hospital side and turn right at the roundabout to go up to the hundreds of companies based around Ballycoolin. There already significant delays at the roundabout.

The rest of Waterville use the exit towards the aquatic centre to access the Snugborough Road in both directions. Delays there too. This plan will push all the traffic going towards Ballycoolin to use this exit too. I live down one of the side roads off the Waterville distributor road, as it is it can be hard to get onto the distributor road at times, adding so many extra cars will make it impossible.

daymobrew

athtrasna wrote: »

At the moment you can go out at the hospital side and turn right at the roundabout to go up to the hundreds of companies based around Ballycoolin. There already significant delays at the roundabout.

The distance to Ballycoolin and even eBay/PayPal sounds like an ideal one for cycling. :-) (I know many people who won't even walk 1km so I know that my comment is preaching to the choir)

dsix

Former Former wrote: »

I can see why someone in Waterville might not be happy with the aspects on their side of it, but overall that junction is a nightmare and widening the approach roads should make a big difference, so I'm happy enough with it.

I don't know what is the budget for this "upgrade" but it is a fairly short minded one. It will just move the traffic from queueing in Snugborough road to queue in the new enlarged bridge. All of that by making the life of the residents even more of a problem there (for both driving and cycling).

If they really want to sort out the traffic problems, they should start putting money away for better PT options (like extending the new luas), because with the new NSC and Rotunda moving to Connolly things aren't going to improve.

Former Former

dsix wrote: »

I don't know what is the budget for this "upgrade" but it is a fairly short minded one. It will just move the traffic from queueing in Snugborough road to queue in the new enlarged bridge. All of that by making the life of the residents even more of a problem there (for both driving and cycling).

If they really want to sort out the traffic problems, they should start putting money away for better PT options (like extending the new luas), because with the new NSC and Rotunda moving to Connolly things aren't going to improve.

See, upgrading public transport is a nice idea - but Fingal County Council can't do that. They can only work on what is within their remit. And extending the Luas is a 10-15 year (minimum) project, what do we do in the meantime?

But you're right, things aren't going to improve; that's why this has to be done. The junction is a mess, it has to be fixed.

The Dark Knight

Former Former wrote:

But you're right, things aren't going to improve; that's why this has to be done. The junction is a mess, it has to be fixed.

I agree it has to be fixed..... But this solution is not a fix. There isn't one single free flow movement.
It's just going to serve as a slightly bigger car park.
I never thought Fingal Co Co could have designed anything worse than N3-BlanchRoadSouth junction - but they've managed to.

ThisRegard

There's no scope really to make any part free flow, the closest being the slip onto the N3. There's simply too many roads intersecting. The other option is the expense of flyovers.

The new design will free up traffic coming from the sports campus direction as once the current bridge fills up with traffic it just backs everything up as there's nowhere to go and it blocks access to the N3 east bound.

daymobrew

I hope that all of these comments were put in submissions!

athtrasna

daymobrew wrote: »

I hope that all of these comments were put in submissions!

Mine were and I know Roderic O'Gorman included some of our concerns in his as he sent me a copy.

lucernarian

I also gave a submission, and the best thing indeed would be to look at some limited free flow and grade separation. It's a constrained space but not impossible. All road users would benefit from that, not so much from simply building another bridge and leaving poorly designed junctions in situ.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a car turn from Main Street left onto snugborough road, away from the bridge. Yet there's a long filter lane for the purpose. I'd sooner they just got rid of the left turn there but at Christmas it would cause problems.. it's an awkward junction for sure, 90s planning at its finest

pissedasanewt

1 exit lane at the bottom of Waterville is nuts. Traffic will always back up over the bridge and apathy toward yellow boxes will mean nobody will get out. Thus also blocking traffic trying to get to the N3. Exiting via the northern end would probably only work if you had traffic lights. Then you've two sets within 30 yards of each other. They would never be able to sequence those up.

Traffic backs up over the bridge going up the Snugbrough road because those pedestrian lights are too near the roundabout and then coming the other direction because of the volume of traffic around going toward the Blanchardstown center in the evening. There probably should be two lanes all the way down the hill, one for the N3 and one the Blanch center. Then were do the busses go. But its not like cars aren't in that lane anyway.

blanch152

lucernarian wrote: »

I'm not sure I've ever seen a car turn from Main Street left onto snugborough road, away from the bridge. Yet there's a long filter lane for the purpose. I'd sooner they just got rid of the left turn there but at Christmas it would cause problems.. it's an awkward junction for sure, 90s planning at its finest

Use that all the time, if the lights go red, rather than waiting four minutes for them to change, turn left up to Next and access the Centre that way, hundreds of cars every day doing just that.

lucernarian

blanch152 wrote: »

Use that all the time, if the lights go red, rather than waiting four minutes for them to change, turn left up to Next and access the Centre that way, hundreds of cars every day doing just that.

I'm not saying it's not done, sure I've done that myself, but I've never seen anyone else doing it and I'd doubt hundreds of cars do it every day.

cython

lucernarian wrote: »

I'm not saying it's not done, sure I've done that myself, but I've never seen anyone else doing it and I'd doubt hundreds of cars do it every day.

Given that I've seen multiple cars do it in a stream over the course of < 1 minute, it's frankly not that hard to believe....

lucernarian

cython wrote: »

Given that I've seen multiple cars do it in a stream over the course of < 1 minute, it's frankly not that hard to believe....

Sure, my choice whether I believe it or not though. It's not so relevant a point anyway. What would be nice are actual AADT studies to show what movements go where. Some datata to back up whatever the council is doing.

amtc

I do it...I live in Waterville and much easier to come home from my parents that way.

hoodie6029

Bump.
Noticed a fence put up in the Topaz car park this week looks like the site has been divided, I'm presuming from a compulsory purchase. Does anyone know if the plans for the junction have been finalised?

lucernarian

If I understand the Fingal website correctly, they're awaiting a final vote by the council itself.

Does anyone else have more info?

hoodie6029

Cheers Lucernian, where did you see that on the site? When I searched I only got the original plans. I want to see if they have made any changes following the submissions.

hoodie6029

Got an update from a local councillor recently. The works are due to begin in late 2018. There will be a right turn on to the Snugborough Road from Waterville where the roundabout is now.

rolion

Link H E R E !?

frankyboy1986

Any update on this scheme?

I notice trees are being removed from along the side of the bridge and im wondering if this has something to do with the project

daymobrew

frankyboy1986 wrote: »

I notice trees are being removed from along the side of the bridge and im wondering if this has something to do with the project

The removal of trees is part of flood defence works.
Councillor Tania Doyle posted the following in a Facebook group recently:

River Tolka Flood Defence Works

Following a Condition Report for the River Tolka Flood Defence Works, the Office of Public Works (OPW) has recommended, as a matter of priority, the removal of the vegetation growing on two locations of the flood defences embankment. Engineers from the OPW are concerned that the growth on the embankment could have a significant effect on the structural strength and integrity of the earth embankment and they have recommended the removal of all vegetation. The work will consist of the removal of all vegetation on the embankment at two locations.It is expected that works will take approximately 8-10 working days (including 2 weekends).

Operations will have to be undertaken at night under lights with works commencing on site on the 8th February 2019.

My understanding is that the scale and type of works are essential works so as to ensure the embankment prevents flooding of the N3.

Site 1 is an area approximatively 300 metres in length along the N3, adjacent to the Snugborough Rd.

Site 2 is a 450 metre earth embankment enclosing Westpoint Business Park.

Once the works have been completed, I have confirmed with Officials that an inspection and assessment with regards to future planting will take place at the locations.

Phil.x

daymobrew wrote: »

The removal of trees is part of flood defence works.
Councillor Tania Doyle posted the following in a Facebook group recently:

I though tree roots assisted in the prevention of landslides.

daymobrew

Phil.x wrote: »

I though tree roots assisted in the prevention of landslides.

So did I. I know that grass on sand dunes keeps them together.

raheny red

https://twitter.com/Fingalcoco/status/1225087029492572160?s=09

Has anyone see these plans or got an up to date link handy?