So I went for another ICE - please don't hate me.

NIMAN

It was time to change up the main car recently, and as you EV folk on here may know, I have been considering an EV since the last time I changed in 2015.

After much consideration, I have decided to stick with ICE for another few years at least, and am back in a diesel again.

So why didn't I go electric this time?

Well, to be honest, I thought that in the last few years EVs would have really caught on and made real progress. Of course they are improving but for me its just not fast enough to consider making the switch now.

In summary, some of the things that stopped me:
1) Range still not high enough. Although they would all suffice for my commute, it would be nice to have slightly better range.
2) EVs just don't seem to have captured the publics imagination yet. My great fear the last time I changed was resale value, and I have this fear again, if not more so, as EV sales seem to be stagnating.
3) Potential monthly cost to be able to use public chargers. I know this has been deferred for now.
4) Hold on and see.....the future of EV is in no doubt imho. More manufacturers are coming on board with more models, but I still think its very early in the life cycle of EVs, and I still fear early adopters might be open to massive depreciation. We will all be driving some sort of EV in the future, but I think its still a long way away for now. Government haven't made a proper effort at getting us into EVs, and their half-arsed attitude to it would not encourage me to buy....not quite yet anyway.

I do have a 2nd car for the family at present, which does all the shorter runs. Changing to an EV when we come to change this, maybe in 18 months time, is a definite possibility as we have less value tied up in that, but for now changing the main car to EV was just a step too far, too soon.

Sorry guys!

bmwguy

PHEV is what I would go for in my situation. Electric would cover my commute every day, petrol for longer spins. Think they do 20/30 mms something like that.

Electric is definitely the future, and soon. Now, my question. Why isn't there a PHEV out there yet that has the electric capability of a full EV but also have a petrol/diesel option.

There will be soon, no doubt.

unkel

bmwguy wrote: »

Why isn't there a PHEV out there yet that has the electric capability of a full EV but also have a petrol/diesel option.

There are. I.e. the BMW i3 is an EV that can come with an optional range extender (REX) which is a small petrol engine that will charge the battery. I thought you, as a BMW guy, would be aware of that

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

bmwguy

unkel wrote: »

There are. I.e. the BMW i3 is an EV that can come with an optional range extender (REX) which is a small petrol engine that will charge the battery. I thought you, as a BMW guy, would be aware of that

No expert, picked the username years ago because I registered on boards to enquire about one. Even though I did briefly work for a bmw dealership many years ago in finance.

stesaurus

bmwguy wrote: »

PHEV is what I would go for in my situation. Electric would cover my commute every day, petrol for longer spins. Think they do 20/30 mms something like that.

Electric is definitely the future, and soon. Now, my question. Why isn't there a PHEV out there yet that has the electric capability of a full EV but also have a petrol/diesel option.

There will be soon, no doubt.

As mentioned already there is the i3 REx but tbh there isn't any others as it just doesn't make sense. You're either carrying around the additional weight of a motor+massive battery pack or an engine+fuel. That's a lot of wastage and would end up being too much of a compromise.

A PHEV should imo have about 50km realistic range. So a small enough battery pack and motor not be such a huge burden but still large enough to do majority of trips. But even in saying that if it's capable of doing the majority of trips why not just go full EV.

It's just an awkward time with the tech. Full EVs are not quite there yet for everyone, although they are for majority even if they don't want to consider it. I think PHEVs will be around for a while and end up being a stepping stone for most even if they aren't really needed. They'll change peoples perception which is probably the biggest barrier.

Oafley Jones

Curious as the why you went for a diesel, when you were looking at an EV.

NIMAN

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Curious as the why you went for a diesel, when you were looking at an EV.

I commute 50-60 miles per day, straight road, diesel I think is best suited for the task. I could have went petrol probably too but the mpg would work out much better.

I could do it in an EV too if I had bought one.

KCross

NIMAN wrote: »

I commute 50-60 miles per day, straight road, diesel I think is best suited for the task. I could have went petrol probably too but the mpg would work out much better.

I could do it in an EV too if I had bought one.

This bit in bold is the bit I dont understand. If it can do your daily commute on one charge you're on a winner

Public charging costs is largely irrelevant to you if you can commute on one charge.

You have a 2nd car for longer runs if public charging became an issue. A 2 car household is ideally suited to EV as that gives you ultimate flexibility.

Depreciation is an issue, but all you have to do there is buy 2nd hand and depreciation is largely irrelevant then when you take the fuel savings into account.
Lots of other benefits to EV as well (smoother, app connectivity, reduced servicing etc)


If you wanted a new car then I can understand your decision as the depreciation is too high. Not because there is anything wrong with the car just that the market is too small.

What diesel did you buy? Did you buy new?

NIMAN

KCross wrote: »

This bit in bold is the bit I dont understand. If it can do your daily commute on one charge you're on a winner

Public charging costs is largely irrelevant to you if you can commute on one charge.

You have a 2nd car for longer runs if public charging became an issue. A 2 car household is ideally suited to EV as that gives you ultimate flexibility.

Depreciation is an issue, but all you have to do there is buy 2nd hand and depreciation is largely irrelevant then when you take the fuel savings into account.
Lots of other benefits to EV as well (smoother, app connectivity, reduced servicing etc)


If you wanted a new car then I can understand your decision as the depreciation is too high. Not because there is anything wrong with the car just that the market is too small.

What diesel did you buy? Did you buy new?

I know I could survive on an EV as our main car but there was simply too many other factors, like some I listed, that stopped me from going for it this time.

I am not as resistant to changing to an EV as most of the population, maybe am somewhere in the middle. After all, they reckon 80% of European population could live their lives and do their commute on an EV, but they don't. Many have pre-conceived images of EVs,and I don't have many of these, but the technology simply isn't there yet for me to fork out hard earned cash on a next to new EV which might plummet in value in the next year or two.

I need to see solid progress made, good Gov initiatives, a decent resale market etc before I consider buying.

I changed a 13 diesel for a 16 diesel, and a car that will be easily traded in or sold in 2 or 3 yrs time when I come to change again.

zilog_jones

@NIMAN: Did you consider any hybrids? Diesel may cost less on fuel if mostly motorway driving, but maintenance costs will undoubtedly be higher in the long run.

bmwguy wrote: »

Why isn't there a PHEV out there yet that has the electric capability of a full EV but also have a petrol/diesel option.

You can't fit an electric motor(s), ICE, large petrol tank and a large battery all into one car - there has to be a compromise somewhere. You can either have a PHEV with short-range EV capability, or an EV with a "range extender" which will have a small ICE and fuel tank mainly only as a backup (which will achieve average/poor fuel economy if used).

The new Prius PHV has a much smaller boot and only 2 seats in the back (compared to standard 4th gen Prius), in order to fit an 8.8 kWh battery and related charging equipment.

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

At €20k you could get a used Prius Plug-in (about 15 km EV range) or Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (about 35-40 km range?) from the UK. Don't know about the other price points. There's not much choice with PHEVs really.

grogi

bmwguy wrote: »

PHEV is what I would go for in my situation. Electric would cover my commute every day, petrol for longer spins. Think they do 20/30 mms something like that.

Electric is definitely the future, and soon. Now, my question. Why isn't there a PHEV out there yet that has the electric capability of a full EV but also have a petrol/diesel option.

There will be soon, no doubt.

The issue with any PHEV is the taxation here. The VRT and SEAI grants are half of those got when buying a full EV. As the result they are much more expensive than EV or regular cars.

Which is a real shame - because without the range anxiety the electric efficiency and cleanness (the EV range in a PHEV would be sufficient for majority of everyday commutes) would be much easier adapted by the masses.

unkel

NIMAN wrote: »

good Gov initiatives

In fairness, they are not gonna get any better:

€5k subsidy
€5k VRT discount
€1k free charge point
free electricity at any public charging point
cheapest motor tax

What else do you want, a free car?

Bigus

unkel wrote: »

In fairness, they are not gonna get any better:

€5k subsidy
€5k VRT discount
€1k free charge point
free electricity at any public charging point
cheapest motor tax

What else do you want, a free car?

+ Tax/excise free fuel ,when charging at home or maybe free at work.

unkel

Interesting point your raise, Bigus. Does anyone know has there been a ruling in providing free charge in the workplace? If there hasn't, I would treat it as tax free (and not a BIK). Same as coffee, subsidised canteen, phone charging, internet / printer use in breaks, etc.

NIMAN

Re question if I considered a hybrid?

To be honest I didn't. Kinda had heart set on a Golf, so went with that.

Not mad keen on most of the hybrids. Maybe the range of those available will also increase over the next few years when I next come to change.

As for repair costs on diesels, I appreciate they can be higher, but I have a 1yr old car which we will likely change in probably 3yrs time, and it still has 3 yrs VW warranty on it. So outside of wear and tear, hopefully it'll not cost me too much.

DrPhilG

If an appropriate EV isn't available in 2 years when I'm due to change, I may look at a plug in. Anybody know what the electric range on the Ioniq plug in is?

NIMAN

DrPhil, what would appropriate be for you in 2 years time?

What are your expectations?

Oafley Jones

NIMAN wrote: »

Re question if I considered a hybrid?

To be honest I didn't. Kinda had heart set on a Golf, so went with that.

Not mad keen on most of the hybrids. Maybe the range of those available will also increase over the next few years when I next come to change.

As for repair costs on diesels, I appreciate they can be higher, but I have a 1yr old car which we will likely change in probably 3yrs time, and it still has 3 yrs VW warranty on it. So outside of wear and tear, hopefully it'll not cost me too much.

Isn't the VW warranty two years? Curious as I'm awaiting a diesel VW myself.

DrPhilG

NIMAN wrote: »

DrPhil, what would appropriate be for you in 2 years time?

What are your expectations?

I want 200 miles on a full charge. Which means probably a minimum of 50kwh battery. My current 24 Leaf will do 80 miles at a push so a little over double the battery size, plus some efficiency improvements and 50kwh should be close to that 200 mile benchmark.

I cope fine at the minute. Work is only a 25 mile round trip. But if I go to work in Derry and then home, and want to go to Letterkenny after work, then visit my dad, then home, I'll have to charge in Letterkenny.

I want to reach Belfast or Dublin without a stop, and Cork with 2. When I did Donegal to Cork I had probably 8 or 9 each way! I do Cork once a year, but I wouldn't do it in the Leaf again, I'll hire a car. Too much hassle. All you need is a few charger waits or blockages added to the normal charging times and you could almost double your journey time. The infrastructure is probably more crowded and less reliable than when I made the trip a year and a half ago too.

EV drivers ask me why I have that magical 200 mile mark given that the Leaf is our only car and is meeting my needs. Well basically 200 miles is (for me) the point where EV driving ceases to become a compromise. Currently I have to charge in Derry or Letterkenny occasionally. On a Belfast run, once each way. On a Dublin trip, 3 times each way.

When people ask me about the range of my car I do have to admit that it is occasionally an inconvenience, but it's well worth it for the €2k a year I'm saving. When we hit 200 miles per charge, that problem is gone. The huge issues of the charging infrastructure are almost gone because I would rarely have to use it. Depreciation will not be as bad because the car (even with some years on it) would still have a market.

I'll never buy new. So I'm hoping that a realistic 200 mile car comes out by mid/late 2018. That should give me plenty of 1 year old options by the time I switch in mid 2019.

NIMAN

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Isn't the VW warranty two years? Curious as I'm awaiting a diesel VW myself.

Part of the deal I got the full 3yrs warranty put on it, as if it was a new car again. I think its the 3yr Das Velt Auto or something its called.

NIMAN

DrPhilG wrote: »

I want 200 miles on a full charge. Which means probably a minimum of 50kwh battery. My current 24 Leaf will do 80 miles at a push so a little over double the battery size, plus some efficiency improvements and 50kwh should be close to that 200 mile benchmark.

I cope fine at the minute. Work is only a 25 mile round trip. But if I go to work in Derry and then home, and want to go to Letterkenny after work, then visit my dad, then home, I'll have to charge in Letterkenny.

I want to reach Belfast or Dublin without a stop, and Cork with 2. When I did Donegal to Cork I had probably 8 or 9 each way! I do Cork once a year, but I wouldn't do it in the Leaf again, I'll hire a car. Too much hassle. All you need is a few charger waits or blockages added to the normal charging times and you could almost double your journey time. The infrastructure is probably more crowded and less reliable than when I made the trip a year and a half ago too.

EV drivers ask me why I have that magical 200 mile mark given that the Leaf is our only car and is meeting my needs. Well basically 200 miles is (for me) the point where EV driving ceases to become a compromise. Currently I have to charge in Derry or Letterkenny occasionally. On a Belfast run, once each way. On a Dublin trip, 3 times each way.

When people ask me about the range of my car I do have to admit that it is occasionally an inconvenience, but it's well worth it for the €2k a year I'm saving. When we hit 200 miles per charge, that problem is gone. The huge issues of the charging infrastructure are almost gone because I would rarely have to use it. Depreciation will not be as bad because the car (even with some years on it) would still have a market.

I'll never buy new. So I'm hoping that a realistic 200 mile car comes out by mid/late 2018. That should give me plenty of 1 year old options by the time I switch in mid 2019.

DrPhil, you have summed up better than I did why I simply did not commit to buying an EV this time round.

Yes, it can do what I need of it for 90% of the time, but I ain't going to commit to one until its not so compromised.

The paragraph I highlighted about says it all for me. A trip the length of Ireland, a small country after all, shouldn't involve 8 or 9 stops. The fact that you feel you would need to hire a car once or twice a year is damning at present. Simply not good enough.

As you say, give me a guaranteed 200 mile battery and I'm your man, I'll be in the queue to buy an EV. I know I will buy one some day, its just that 'that day' wasn't quite 2017.

Oafley Jones

NIMAN wrote: »

Part of the deal I got the full 3yrs warranty put on it, as if it was a new car again. I think its the 3yr Das Velt Auto or something its called.

Odd as Das Welt Auto is for their used cars.

DrPhilG

NIMAN wrote: »

The fact that you feel you would need to hire a car once or twice a year is damning at present. Simply not good enough.

Once a year. And it doesn't put me off, cost of car hire for a week comes out of the savings account I set up when I got the car. I put £150 a month into it, as that is the amount I used to spend in a month driving diesel, minus what I now spend in extra electricity.

zilog_jones

NIMAN wrote: »

Re question if I considered a hybrid?

To be honest I didn't. Kinda had heart set on a Golf, so went with that.

There is the Golf GTE and Audi A3 e-tron (both PHEVs), but I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't know they existed. Also, I'd imagine the used market here is pretty much non-existent and you would have to go to the UK to get one. VRT would be lower than equivalent diesels, but I don't know how they compare price-wise at that age.

Either way they would only cover some of your commute (EV range is about 40km in the GTE), but utilising EV driving during the slower parts of your journey could easily lead to better fuel economy than a diesel. I'm averaging 3.74 l/100km (76 MPG) with my Prius Plug-in from a lot of varied driving (about 30% EV), although my commute is a lot shorter (about 13 km/day).

NIMAN

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Odd as Das Welt Auto is for their used cars.

I bought a used car.

NIMAN

zilog_jones wrote: »

There is the Golf GTE and Audi A3 e-tron (both PHEVs), but I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't know they existed. Also, I'd imagine the used market here is pretty much non-existent and you would have to go to the UK to get one. VRT would be lower than equivalent diesels, but I don't know how they compare price-wise at that age.

Either way they would only cover some of your commute (EV range is about 40km in the GTE), but utilising EV driving during the slower parts of your journey could easily lead to better fuel economy than a diesel. I'm averaging 3.74 l/100km (76 MPG) with my Prius Plug-in from a lot of varied driving (about 30% EV), although my commute is a lot shorter (about 13 km/day).

I knew about them ok, but the price of them is shocking.
The VW Golf GTE for same year is approx €9k more than the TDi I bought.

bk

Yup DrPhilG also perfectly described why EV's aren't there yet for me either.

200 miles at motorway speeds is also the magic number for me. Dublin to Cork without stopping.

I've read trip reports of it taking 5 hours to get to Cork with a 24Kwh Leaf! By comparison my sister does it every weekend in 2.5 hours, hell even Aircoach does it in 3 hours!

Doubling the trip time if you do such long trips regularly is just madness IMO.

KCross

bk wrote: »

I've read trip reports of it taking 5 hours to get to Cork with a 24Kwh Leaf! By comparison my sister does it every weekend in 2.5 hours, hell even Aircoach does it in 3 hours!

Doubling the trip time if you do such long trips regularly is just madness IMO.

Thats just bs and why people are afraid to move to EV with all the scare stories.

I've done Cork-Dublin in a 24kWh Leaf. It requires two stops. So, it adds about 45mins to the journey. If you are the type of person who stops once anyway on that journey it is really only one extra stop.

Im not saying that's acceptable. We'd all like to drive it without having to stop but the misinformation around EV's is just painful.

Oafley Jones

KCross wrote: »

Thats just bs and why people are afraid to move to EV with all the scare stories.

I've done Cork-Dublin in a 24kWh Leaf. It requires two stops. So, it adds about 45mins to the journey. If you are the type of person who stops once anyway on that journey it is really only one extra stop.

Im not saying that's acceptable. We'd all like to drive it without having to stop but the misinformation around EV's is just painful.

How many chargers are available where you stop. Have you ever had to wait your turn?

NIMAN

KCross wrote: »

Thats just bs and why people are afraid to move to EV with all the scare stories.

I've done Cork-Dublin in a 24kWh Leaf. It requires two stops. So, it adds about 45mins to the journey. If you are the type of person who stops once anyway on that journey it is really only one extra stop.

Im not saying that's acceptable. We'd all like to drive it without having to stop but the misinformation around EV's is just painful.

But thats the issue. People won't accept having to stop. 1 stop would be too many for most drivers, who want to get into the car and not get out til they hit Cork.

Having to stop twice simply won't wash with 95% of the car buying public.

KCross

Oafley Jones wrote: »

How many chargers are available where you stop. Have you ever had to wait your turn?

I rarely use the public charging system. The vast majority (95+%) of my charging is from home and thats the case for most people.

Public charging is mainly used by those who are doing longer journeys. I've never had to queue for anything more than a few mins.

There is only one charger per site, which is a problem. If thats out of service or if someone has just started a charge when you arrive you need a plan B.

Queuing is rare enough except for a few hotspots where it happens regularly.

If you need to use the public charging regularly I'd say dont buy an EV, just yet.

KCross

NIMAN wrote: »

But thats the issue. People won't accept having to stop. 1 stop would be too many for most drivers, who want to get into the car and not get out til they hit Cork.

Having to stop twice simply won't wash with 95% of the car buying public.

Im not disagreeing with that point. I said its not acceptable. I'm calling bs on the 5hrs from Cork-Dublin.

For me, the current crop of EV's are an excellent 2nd car. I wouldnt recommend it for a one car household unless you never do more than 100km's a day.

We have 2 cars. The split was roughly 50/50 between them before the EV. Since we moved one to EV the split is probably now 70/30 to the EV. More and more of the driving is done in the EV and the long journeys are done in the diesel.

The savings are significant in both fuel and reduced servicing on the diesel.

NIMAN

Wasn't having a go at you, simply pointing out why people aren't buying into EVs just yet. They don't want to have to have a Plan B, to get stranded at a charger out of service, or have to stop on a long journey.

I fully understand how an EV could easily fit into most peoples lifestyles, probably including my own, but only started this thread as an example of why people are still picking ICE over EV.

zilog_jones

I could see how it could potentially take 5 hours to get from Dublin-Cork in a Leaf if you're unprepared and not familiar with the route. I know someone who bought a used Leaf in NI and drove to Cork and it was not an enjoyable experience (encountered out of service charger, etc.), but that's probably the worst case scenario - a particularly long journey combined with a totally unfamiliar car and unfamiliar method of powering it.

Long distance driving in current EVs does require more planning, and having to make backup plans. I guess that may seem like too much of an inconvenience to many, and seem like a downgrade from an ICE/hybrid. I usually make one stop going Cork-Dublin but not two, and maybe 20 mins max. I would be much more likely to go with an EV as my next car if I could do the same with that.

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

I could see how it could potentially take 5 hours to get from Dublin-Cork in a Leaf if you're unprepared and not familiar with the route. I know someone who bought a used Leaf in NI and drove to Cork and it was not an enjoyable experience (encountered out of service charger, etc.), but that's probably the worst case scenario - a particularly long journey combined with a totally unfamiliar car and unfamiliar method of powering it.

Did they mis-calculate and run out of power?
Cork-Dublin is a very easy route to drive. Its all motorway with plenty of chargers on route. I cant see how it would take anyone 5hrs unless it was a breakdown scenario.

zilog_jones wrote: »

I usually make one stop going Cork-Dublin but not two, and maybe 20 mins max. I would be much more likely to go with an EV as my next car if I could do the same with that.

Sounds like the Ioniq should be able to do that. We need unkel to go on a road trip first!

zulutango

NIMAN wrote: »

The fact that you feel you would need to hire a car once or twice a year is damning at present. Simply not good enough.

It's hardly damning, is it? I mean, if you have to hire a car twice in the year, that expense is very low compared with the savings from using an EV the rest of the time.

I don't have an EV, but I did get rid of my ICE 6 weeks ago. I just wasn't using it enough to justify the expense. So far, I've been able to get by walking, cycling and with public transport. As the weather improves and the evenings get longer, I will probably find myself needing a car but I expect that hiring one will be a good option when those situations arise.

Padraig Mor

NIMAN wrote: »

But thats the issue. People won't accept having to stop. 1 stop would be too many for most drivers, who want to get into the car and not get out til they hit Cork.

Having to stop twice simply won't wash with 95% of the car buying public.

You're correct - and this is the big, unnecessary, barrier to current generation EV uptake in Ireland. 95% won't accept having to stop to charge on a Dublin to Cork run - yet 95% of people don't do Dublin/Cork runs! Isn't it something like 80% of people do less than 50km per day? I've done 33000 km in my Leaf in 18 months so quite a bit more driving than average - yet I've never been stuck or caught out etc. Even 280km round trips have been fine with a bit of planning. I can easily count on one hand the number of times we've taken our other family car because the Leaf range was an issue.

bk

KCross wrote: »

Thats just bs and why people are afraid to move to EV with all the scare stories.

I've done Cork-Dublin in a 24kWh Leaf. It requires two stops. So, it adds about 45mins to the journey. If you are the type of person who stops once anyway on that journey it is really only one extra stop.

Im not saying that's acceptable. We'd all like to drive it without having to stop but the misinformation around EV's is just painful.

I based my comment off this thread and trip review (a few posts down):

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057456468

gabsdot40 said it took him 5 hours.

I also have to say that your 45minutes charging time is pretty meaningless statistic. It is meaningless if you are crawling along the motorway at 80km/h trying to save battery. Also it doesn't take into account the need to slow down and leave the motorway and find the charging point and plug it in, etc. twice.

The only meaningful number is the real a to b time. As in I left my front door in Dublin at 1pm and I arrived at 5pm or whatever. Then we can get a true view of what the journey is like.

BTW most people who regularly do Cork to Dublin don't stop at all. At 2.5 hours journey time, a stop isn't really needed. It is a pretty easy journey, nice road, not particularly stressful at all.

Lochlannach

Reading this one with interest...

We're currently looking at a 24KW Leaf for my wife - this should easily handle her 35KM each way commute from Kildare to Maynooth. Outside of that she doesn't do any longer trips usually - they're generally in my car.

I would love to go to an EV but I honestly can't see it happening until range goes well up. My commute would be fine at 50KM each way but that's it. I'm a kayaker and sometimes I need to bring a kayak on my commute and that would kill it. I also can't see an EV being much good for a 58KM trip across the Wicklow Gap on a Sunday morning with a kayak strapped to the roof! Additionally about once a month we do Kildare - West Cork or Kildare - Mayo, again often with a kayak attached for the Cork run.
I don't know what sort of range I'd need to cover that realistically. If it had sufficient range on battery to do my commute I'd consider a PHEV but the compromises aren't great.

bk

KCross wrote: »

For me, the current crop of EV's are an excellent 2nd car. I wouldnt recommend it for a one car household unless you never do more than 100km's a day.

That is very good of you to say, because there are some people on this forum who will swear blind that you can use an EV in every situation. I think it is important to be honest about it and not overstate the current abilities of EV's. All that will do is damage the image of EV's if people buy one too soon and it doesn't meet their needs.

KCross wrote: »

The savings are significant in both fuel and reduced servicing on the diesel.

But on the other hand the EV costs a lot more up front. A while ago I did the maths on it for myself and found it would take well over 10 years for the EV to pay back. It all depends on what your milage is. It ironically currently best suits people with long daily commutes, but not over 100km, who have a second car for longer trips.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

You're correct - and this is the big, unnecessary, barrier to current generation EV uptake in Ireland. 95% won't accept having to stop to charge on a Dublin to Cork run - yet 95% of people don't do Dublin/Cork runs! Isn't it something like 80% of people do less than 50km per day? I've done 33000 km in my Leaf in 18 months so quite a bit more driving than average - yet I've never been stuck or caught out etc. Even 280km round trips have been fine with a bit of planning. I can easily count on one hand the number of times we've taken our other family car because the Leaf range was an issue.

The problem with a statistic like 80% of people do 50km per day, is that it is an average. It doesn't take into account the few times a year that people do a trip to Cork or Galway, etc. Telling those people that they can't take their €30,000 car to do that trip reasonably and need to rent a car is insane.

Those people will reasonably say, nah it is ok mate, I'll buy a cheaper Diesel that will do the job just fine so instead.

Even though I hate the thought of Diesel and genuinely care about the environment, even I feel that way and will likely buy another Diesel for my next car

This is exactly what EV's need to do if they are going to gain mainstream acceptance, is match what even 30 year old cars can do!

KCross

bk wrote: »

I based my comment off this thread and trip review (a few posts down):

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057456468

gabsdot40 said it took him 5 hours.

I also have to say that your 45minutes charging time is pretty meaningless statistic. It is meaningless if you are crawling along the motorway at 80km/h trying to save battery. Also it doesn't take into account the need to slow down and leave the motorway and find the charging point and plug it in, etc. twice.

The only meaningful number is the real a to b time. As in I left my front door in Dublin at 1pm and I arrived at 5pm or whatever. Then we can get a true view of what the journey is like.

BTW most people who regularly do Cork to Dublin don't stop at all. At 2.5 hours journey time, a stop isn't really needed. It is a pretty easy journey, nice road, not particularly stressful at all.

He said he drove at 85kmh which is probably actually a real speed of 80kmh since the Leaf overreads the speed. Thats incredibly slow to be driving on a motorway and explains the 5hrs! Thats not normal or required.

I drive my Leaf the same as I used drive my diesels. On a motorway I drive it at 128kmh(which is a real world 120kmh).

The chargers are right off the motorway so from indicating to get off to plugging in is literally 2mins.

I still stand over my 45mins extra(worst case an hour). Drive the car at whatever speed you like you will still need to stop twice. So, if it normally takes you 2.5hrs in a diesel just add on 45mins. Less on the 30kWh Leaf as it charges faster.

If you get caught in a charging queue then all bets are off, of course. I'm not saying a Cork-Dublin trip is easy but it certainly isnt 5hrs (or at least it doesnt need to be).

bk

Lochlannach wrote: »

I would love to go to an EV but I honestly can't see it happening until range goes well up. My commute would be fine at 50KM each way but that's it. I'm a kayaker and sometimes I need to bring a kayak on my commute & I can't see an EV managing a 58KM trip across the Wicklow Gap on a Sunday morning with a kayak strapped to the roof! Additionally about once a month we do Kildare - West Cork or Kildare - Mayo, again often with a kayak attached for the Cork run.
I don't know what sort of range I'd need to cover that realistically. If it had sufficient range on battery to do my commute I'd consider a PHEV but the compromises aren't great.

Almost exactly the same as yourself here. Love outdoors and hiking, most weekend take trips to at least Wicklow Mountains, but often also to Galway, Mayo, Donegal, Mournes, Killarney, etc.

The truth is BEV's are just nowhere near being ready for people like you and me (sort of the Tesla S and X, but ridiculously expensive). Which is a pity, because people like us probably care greatly about the environment!

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV second hand for the UK is an interesting option you should check out. a 4x4 SUV with lots of space would make it ideal for dragging a kayak into the mountains. While it also has a 50km battery range, which if you had a charger at work might allow you to do most of your daily commute on battery.

Seriously thinking about one of these myself.

The Kia Niro Hybrid is another one I'm considering.

KCross

bk wrote: »

That is very good of you to say, because there are some people on this forum who will swear blind that you can use an EV in every situation. I think it is important to be honest about it and not overstate the current abilities of EV's. All that will do is damage the image of EV's if people buy one too soon and it doesn't meet their needs.



But on the other hand the EV costs a lot more up front. A while ago I did the maths on it for myself and found it would take well over 10 years for the EV to pay back. It all depends on what your milage is. It ironically currently best suits people with long daily commutes, but not over 100km, who have a second car for longer trips.



The problem with a statistic like 80% of people do 50km per day, is that it is an average. It doesn't take into account the few times a year that people do a trip to Cork or Galway, etc. Telling those people that they can't take their €30,000 car to do that trip reasonably and need to rent a car is insane.

Those people will reasonably say, nah it is ok mate, I'll buy a cheaper Diesel that will do the job just fine so instead.

Even though I hate the thought of Diesel and genuinely care about the environment, even I feel that way and will likely buy another Diesel for my next car

This is exactly what EV's need to do if they are going to gain mainstream acceptance, is match what even 30 year old cars can do!

I agree with all of that except "But on the other hand the EV costs a lot more up front."

I dont think the Leaf costs more(or at least significantly more) up front. Its hard to get an apples to apples comparison. Its a €25k ish car. Would you say thats "a lot more"?

There are some really good 2nd hand ones that will cost you very little on depreciation with all the upsides of reduced fuel bills.

It does depend on your usage profile though, as you said.

bk

KCross, you still didn't give the real a to b time which is all that matters to me to be honest.

I'd love if someone used a GPS app on their phone to record the journey and post it so that we could get a real view of the journey time.

I seriously doubt it take you just 3h 15m to do the journey. I suspect it is at least 4 hours.

KCross

bk wrote: »

KCross, you still didn't give the real a to b time which is all that matters to me to be honest.

I'd love if someone used a GPS app on their phone to record the journey and post it so that we could get a real view of the journey time.

I seriously doubt it take you just 3h 15m to do the journey. I suspect it is at least 4 hours.

I genuinely cant remember (I can hear you laughing!) but you miss the point.

How long it takes is simply two things.... how fast you drive and how long you spend charging. I'm telling you how long it takes to charge (45-60max) and how fast you drive is your business. I drive at motorway speed.

I know a trip for me from Cork to Dublin (Red Cow) is about 2hrs 15mins in a diesel without stopping. I think the Leaf was just a bit more than 3hrs but I dont remember exactly. Trust me, its not 5hrs, nor 4 either. Certainly no more than 3.5hrs and I believe I did it quicker than that.

There must be someone else on here that has done that trip that can back me up here!

zilog_jones

bk wrote: »

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV second hand for the UK is an interesting option you should check out. a 4x4 SUV with lots of space would make it ideal for dragging a kayak into the mountains. While it also has a 50km battery range, which if you had a charger at work might allow you to do most of your daily commute on battery.

50 km EV range is based on the NEDC test which is complete fantasy. Range in the real world is more like 30-35 km, 40 on a good day. New model might be better.

KCross wrote: »

Did they mis-calculate and run out of power?
Cork-Dublin is a very easy route to drive.

No, but I think the range estimation went to zero at one point - pretty stressful situation when you're in an unfamiliar car. And in this case it was Belfast (or somewhere nearby) to Cork.

unkel

bk wrote: »

The only meaningful number is the real a to b time.

Indeed. So you are saying a normal time from Dublin to Cork is about 2:30 in a normal car without stopping?

I've no business in Cork (and I rarely go more than 200km in one day), but for the craic I looked this up:

Lucan - Cork (Rochestown Road, where the CCS charger is) is 251km. Surely I should be able to do that in an Ioniq at the same speeds with one stop somewhere in the middle taking 45 minutes, so 3:15?

bk wrote: »

But on the other hand the EV costs a lot more up front. A while ago I did the maths on it for myself and found it would take well over 10 years for the EV to pay back

Not anymore. A Leaf is €20k, an Ioniq is €25k. Maybe a few thousand more up front (in the case of the Ioniq) but that's paid back within the first year or two for someone doing average mileage

bk

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. So you are saying a normal time from Dublin to Cork is about 2:30 in a normal car without stopping?

I've no business in Cork (and I rarely go more than 200km in one day), but for the craic I looked this up:

Lucan - Cork (Rochestown Road, where the CCS charger is) is 251km. Surely I should be able to do that in an Ioniq at the same speeds with one stop somewhere in the middle taking 45 minutes, so 3:15?

Yup, 2:30 would be pretty normal off peak. 2:15 wouldn't be unusual for someone with a heavy foot

Yes, I suspect 3:15 should be possible in the Ioniq. I can't wait to see someone try it out, I'd almost be tempted if that was a realistic option in winter. Though I'd prefer a 50kwh battery.

We were talking about the 24Kwh Leaf, which requires 2 or 3 stops to charge up. I'd be honestly surprised if someone can do it faster then 4 hours with two stops. I wasn't surprised to hear it taking some people 5 hours.

unkel wrote: »

Not anymore. A Leaf is €20k, an Ioniq is €25k. Maybe a few thousand more up front (in the case of the Ioniq) but that's paid back within the first year or two for someone doing average mileage

Well the Leaf is €28,000 with the 30Kwh battery, to be honest I don't think the 24k is even worth considering * and isn't the Ioniq €29k?

Do you mean with scrappage? I don't think that is a valid to take into account, not everyone has a car to scrap, I don't.

* However I agree that the Leaf second hand from the UK looks like great value for a second car in the family as a run around.

bk

zilog_jones wrote: »

50 km EV range is based on the NEDC test which is complete fantasy. Range in the real world is more like 30-35 km, 40 on a good day. New model might be better.

Sure, but then it can continue to run off petrol, but even that would make it a very efficient SUV with a superb MPG.

Of course not ideal, many people would love a 200+ mile real world BEV SUV, but that doesn't exist yet. For now the Outlander seems a decent compromise for people with Lochlannach and mine requirements (Long distance trips into very rough rural areas with lots of gear), while not being a total hog on the daily commute.

KCross

bk wrote: »

We were talking about the 24Kwh Leaf, which requires 2 or 3 stops to charge up. I'd be honestly surprised if someone can do it faster then 4 hours with two stops. I wasn't surprised to hear it taking some people 5 hours

I'm a bull****ter then?
I already said I did it in less than 3.5hrs

The 5hr quote was from someone driving at 80kmh!