Best job for part time farmer.

Bass Reeves · 19-01-2017 12:51PM

Username John wrote: »

20silkcut wrote: »

Honestly I think if your home farm doesn't stack up financially on its own two feet what is the point?
For the love of it ?
Fair enough I understand that.

I think I said 'stack up financially full time'

So are you saying what's the point in farming part time?

I think a lot has to do with love of it. Plus, its a handy second income, on its own its not much, but on top of an existing wage - its very nice...

It is often more than nice it can change the economics of both the job and the farm. You are not stuck to draw down taxable income from the farm and farm losses can be written off against PAYE income. Time is a constraint but then so is money if you farm full-time. I see a lot of lads that are full-time and are buying and dealing/tangling. They spend longer days than I do even with the day job.

kowtow · 19-01-2017 02:49PM

20silkcut wrote:

The thing is a farm or any business should grow and improve as time goes by. If a farm is being limited in its growth by an off farm job then questions need to be asked. Likewise if an off farm job is being limited by the farm. Would a teacher not be better off doing grinds in their time off or spending more time on their career and try and become a principal. Or even just use their time off for leisure or holidays and be fresher going in to work and healthier. If your not growing your farm it stagnates and it does not reach its full potential. This has a negative impact on the wider agricultural economy. Likewise If your not furthering your career it stagnates and potential remains unfulfilled. I don't see the point in having an unfulfilled farm and an unfulfilled career.

The question which keeps crossing my mind is what sort of well run business would employ a farmer whose mind at least, if not the rest of him, would rather be at home sorting out the farm.

Notwithstanding the fact that farmers are by and large great workers.

Tricky balance to strike there.

Bass Reeves · 19-01-2017 03:25PM

kowtow wrote: »

20silkcut wrote:

The thing is a farm or any business should grow and improve as time goes by. If a farm is being limited in its growth by an off farm job then questions need to be asked. Likewise if an off farm job is being limited by the farm. Would a teacher not be better off doing grinds in their time off or spending more time on their career and try and become a principal. Or even just use their time off for leisure or holidays and be fresher going in to work and healthier. If your not growing your farm it stagnates and it does not reach its full potential. This has a negative impact on the wider agricultural economy. Likewise If your not furthering your career it stagnates and potential remains unfulfilled. I don't see the point in having an unfulfilled farm and an unfulfilled career.

The question which keeps crossing my mind is what sort of well run business would employ a farmer whose mind at least, if not the rest of him, would rather be at home sorting out the farm.

Notwithstanding the fact that farmers are by and large great workers.

Tricky balance to strike there.

I would much prefer to employ a semi-interested good worker rather than a lazy sod. I see lads that are more interest in avoiding any work that have nothing to do in the evening . There is an old saying if you want something done ask the busy man.

Username John · 19-01-2017 03:48PM

20silkcut wrote: »

This is a very worthy and genuine reason and it is what drives many farmers in this country myself included.

The thing is a farm or any business should grow and improve as time goes by. If a farm is being limited in its growth by an off farm job then questions need to be asked. Likewise if an off farm job is being limited by the farm.
Would a teacher not be better off doing grinds in their time off or spending more time on their career and try and become a principal. Or even just use their time off for leisure or holidays and be fresher going in to work and healthier.
If your not growing your farm it stagnates and it does not reach its full potential. This has a negative impact on the wider agricultural economy.
Likewise If your not furthering your career it stagnates and potential remains unfulfilled.
I don't see the point in having an unfulfilled farm and an unfulfilled career.

I kinda see it the opposite way...

You seem to see two jobs as competing with each, whereas I see them
complimenting really...

I work in an office, so to go home on a nice evening and head out is nice, I find it relaxing. It may seem odd to say, but I find it therapeutic.

On the flip side - I head off to my office job every morning, and I work as hard as I can there, I find that fulfilling, as I like my job.

In terms of what pays better - the full time job, absolutely hands down. The returns from farming don't compare. This is part of the reason I have some of our place leased on a long term lease - I kept some of it back, to 'hobby farm' as you say yourself

It still needs to generate a profit, but its less workload for me, plus the money from the tax-free lease is as much as I could generate myself from farming it, with a lot less time and effort...

20silkcut · 19-01-2017 04:52PM

Username John wrote: »

I kinda see it the opposite way...

You seem to see two jobs as competing with each, whereas I see them
complimenting really...

I work in an office, so to go home on a nice evening and head out is nice, I find it relaxing. It may seem odd to say, but I find it therapeutic.

On the flip side - I head off to my office job every morning, and I work as hard as I can there, I find that fulfilling, as I like my job.

In terms of what pays better - the full time job, absolutely hands down. The returns from farming don't compare. This is part of the reason I have some of our place leased on a long term lease - I kept some of it back, to 'hobby farm' as you say yourself
It still needs to generate a profit, but its less workload for me, plus the money from the tax-free lease is as much as I could generate myself from farming it, with a lot less time and effort...

What I am highlighting is the potential loss to the economy by part time farming.
The fact that a farm is being farmed part time generally means it is not being farmed to its fullest potential now I know there are exceptions to this.
But there is a loss in terms of cattle/milk/crop sales a loss in terms of input/contractors/vets etc . This is all unseen and painless because it is activity that does not exist so nobody misses it but it is a lost opportunity.

Taking the example of the teacher society loses out by having a part time farmer teacher in that the said teacher is unlikely to partake in extra curricular work or give grinds or put in the extra work needed to improve their career. It is a lose lose in pure economic terms.
But of course that is all very abstract.

As you say in your post nothing beats getting home from work and heading out into the fields to check the cattle on a summers evening.

Cran · 19-01-2017 05:26PM

20silkcut wrote: »

What I am highlighting is the potential loss to the economy by part time farming.
The fact that a farm is being farmed part time generally means it is not being farmed to its fullest potential now I know there are exceptions to this.
But there is a loss in terms of cattle/milk/crop sales a loss in terms of input/contractors/vets etc . This is all unseen and painless because it is activity that does not exist so nobody misses it but it is a lost opportunity.

Taking the example of the teacher society loses out by having a part time farmer teacher in that the said teacher is unlikely to partake in extra curricular work or give grinds or put in the extra work needed to improve their career. It is a lose lose in pure economic terms.
But of course that is all very abstract.

As you say in your post nothing beats getting home from work and heading out into the fields to check the cattle on a summers evening.

I would think full time farmers with high SFP has as much on impact farms not reaching full potential as farmers with part time jobs do tbh

20silkcut · 19-01-2017 05:47PM

Cran wrote: »

I would think full time farmers with high SFP has as much on impact farms not reaching full potential as farmers with part time jobs do tbh

In my opinion the SFP or BPS is the root of all evil in farming. And is most responsible for stifling potential .

patsy_mccabe · 19-01-2017 06:26PM

20silkcut wrote: »

In my opinion the SFP or BPS is the root of all evil in farming. And is most responsible for stifling potential .

Producing more isn't necessarily the best option. We are already exporting 90% of what we produce. Prices in relative terms are probably at an all-time low. Producing more would make matters even worst.

20silkcut · 19-01-2017 08:15PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Producing more isn't necessarily the best option. We are already exporting 90% of what we produce. Prices in relative terms are probably at an all-time low. Producing more would make matters even worst.

Yes but if we didn't have a protected industry we would have a lot more export options. As long as we have the SFP/BPS we will be shut out of many lucrative markets and reduce our trading options. If we had proper open free trade we would be absolutely flat keeping our markets supplied.
Look at every poor country and failed economic system in the world and you will see that government interference and control is the root cause of all poverty not overproduction.

Username John · 19-01-2017 09:06PM

20silkcut wrote: »

Yes but if we didn't have a protected industry we would have a lot more export options. As long as we have the SFP/BPS we will be shut out of many lucrative markets and reduce our trading options. If we had proper open free trade we would be absolutely flat keeping our markets supplied.
Look at every poor country and failed economic system in the world and you will see that government interference and control is the root cause of all poverty not overproduction.

That may be - although not sure I fully agree with it...

But what you seem to be saying is in an ideal world, with no SFP, and lucrative markets to buy everything we produce - that part-time farmers wouldn't 'cash in' on this and produce to their capacity?
If you are - I would disagree strongly...

But, we have come a long way from what job fits nicely with farming I think...

pedigree 6 · 19-01-2017 09:08PM

20silkcut wrote: »

Yes but if we didn't have a protected industry we would have a lot more export options. As long as we have the SFP/BPS we will be shut out of many lucrative markets and reduce our trading options. If we had proper open free trade we would be absolutely flat keeping our markets supplied.
Look at every poor country and failed economic system in the world and you will see that government interference and control is the root cause of all poverty not overproduction.

I agree with you on the subs and without them it would lead to more "proper" farming and common sense with land sales and letting. I'm not sure about more markets for the produce though.

However the current system is farcical no doubt with subs based on how much product you or someone before you sold or farmed in 2005. With larger producers needing a bigger payment to survive than a smaller producer. Plus the ridiculous situation where payments were decided on what you were producing at that time with tillage, cattle, sheep, getting the highest payments at that time and still receiving these even though now they may be farming something totally different today. Still doesn't make sense.

However these things are looked at on a national basis never on the farm basis.
So a lot of money comes into the country and it is spent on concrete, steel, land, machinery, advisors. Don't expect this to change. Personally while you know it's wrong. You can only manage your own patch the best you can even though the odds can be stacked against you.
But you may just let it go and get on with your work or you'll just get bitter inside.

This is a thread about a good off farm job.
The esb seems a good highly sought after job and you're working with your hands out in the countryside with good wages.

Another option is to develop another business on farm. Whatever your interested in and you see a market for will decide this.

kowtow · 19-01-2017 09:27PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I would much prefer to employ a semi-interested good worker rather than a lazy sod. I see lads that are more interest in avoiding any work that have nothing to do in the evening . There is an old saying if you want something done ask the busy man.

Me too, every time. What I had in mind was the more high-tech businesses which often demand employees with the same kind of dedication and commitment that the farmer shows to his herd or his farm.

I wonder does dedication to the farm limit the options as far as jobs where the farmer can really fit in and excel, as opposed to turn up on time and work hard.

Robson99 · 19-01-2017 10:11PM

I would think a job as a butcher would compliment being a farmer!

Office job here. Farm 40 acres. Look on farm as a pastime / hobby that generates enough profit for a family Sun holiday every year.
Would I rent land..no as I'm in the higher tax bracket as it is and wouldn't be worth it
Am I maximising the farm to its potential... I would say its to the potential I want it to be at
Is this a loss to the economy because I might not have it at its max potential...I couldn't give a **** whether it is or not. The farm is mine and I can farm it whatever way I want

Username John · 19-01-2017 10:37PM

Robson99 wrote: »

I would think a job as a butcher would compliment being a farmer!

Office job here. Farm 40 acres. Look on farm as a pastime / hobby that generates enough profit for a family Sun holiday every year.
Would I rent land..no as I'm in the higher tax bracket as it is and wouldn't be worth it
Am I maximising the farm to its potential... I would say its to the potential I want it to be at
Is this a loss to the economy because I might not have it at its max potential...I couldn't give a **** whether it is or not. The farm is mine and I can farm it whatever way I want

I'm in the higher tax bracket as well Rob, that was part of the reason I leased some - its tax free for a 5+ year lease.

Robson99 · 19-01-2017 10:55PM

Username John wrote: »

I'm in the higher tax bracket as well Rob, that was part of the reason I leased some - its tax free for a 5+ year lease.

Nothing wrong with that once you are happy with it. I enjoy the farming...better than being in the pub or the golf course

Bass Reeves · 20-01-2017 01:28AM

kowtow wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I would much prefer to employ a semi-interested good worker rather than a lazy sod. I see lads that are more interest in avoiding any work that have nothing to do in the evening . There is an old saying if you want something done ask the busy man.

Me too, every time. What I had in mind was the more high-tech businesses which often demand employees with the same kind of dedication and commitment that the farmer shows to his herd or his farm.

I wonder does dedication to the farm limit the options as far as jobs where the farmer can really fit in and excel, as opposed to turn up on time and work hard.

The answer you question is NO. Sorry for shouting after a few pints. It is all about ethos. Farmer locally was employed by a tech company. They made him redundant and paid him a pile of cash. 4-6 months later he was back in as a subcontractor. From a lad that works in there he was supposed to be doing less and getting paid more. When you farm and work there is a perception from both side, the farming and the lads that work with you that because they cannot do it that you must be screwing the system. Some manager's above you are jealous well maybe that is a harsh word, envious might be more appropriate. Other managers recognise the ethos and live with the conflict.

It about priority's there is no doubt that when you are employed by someone else you have to give that job it due. But this idea that you will not be a better than average employee is not looking at the ethos. As Jesus said ''render unto Ceased what is Ceasers's, and to God what is God's''.

20silkcut · 20-01-2017 01:31AM

Username John wrote: »

That may be - although not sure I fully agree with it...

But what you seem to be saying is in an ideal world, with no SFP, and lucrative markets to buy everything we produce - that part-time farmers wouldn't 'cash in' on this and produce to their capacity?
If you are - I would disagree strongly...

But, we have come a long way from what job fits nicely with farming I think...

Urser name John if you gave me the smartest man in the world and put him on the opposite side of the free trade argument to me with my average intelligence I guarantee I would beat him hands down with my free trade argument every time. It is the easiest argument in the world. Every economist going back to the time of Adam smith and his publication of "the wealth of the nations " agrees that free trade is the only show in town. The only blue print for the creation of wealth. This has been borne out in the disastrous experiment of capitalism v socialism between 1945 to 1989 culminating in the collapse of the Berlin Wall and subsequent fall of the Soviet Union.
But we are wildly digressing from the topic of this thread. In the entire history of humanity there has never been free trade across the entire globe and likely never will but when looking for the source of the lack of economic sustainability in modern farming look not at overproduction or underutilisation of farm land it is all down to trade restriction and protectionism. Just look at the brexit scenario where Britain will get on fine outside the EU but what will mess things up is the punishment meted out by the EU through the imposition of tariffs. That's what wil f*ck things up. Britain and Theresa may are offering complete free trade post brexit but we will be shoe horned into a situation not seen since the economic war of the 1930's.

Bass Reeves · 20-01-2017 01:39AM

Username John wrote: »

Robson99 wrote: »

I would think a job as a butcher would compliment being a farmer!

Office job here. Farm 40 acres. Look on farm as a pastime / hobby that generates enough profit for a family Sun holiday every year.
Would I rent land..no as I'm in the higher tax bracket as it is and wouldn't be worth it
Am I maximising the farm to its potential... I would say its to the potential I want it to be at
Is this a loss to the economy because I might not have it at its max potential...I couldn't give a **** whether it is or not. The farm is mine and I can farm it whatever way I want

I'm in the higher tax bracket as well Rob, that was part of the reason I leased some - its tax free for a 5+ year lease.

I am in the higher tax bracket as well, so is the better half. Would I lease no pushed the farm for last 2-3 years was above 170 kgN/ HA. ( Hit above 190 in reality above 200 as had a bit of bog/ marsh that I was hardly grazing). Dropped back last year and again this year. Know a full-time farmer and he is dropping back stocking rate as well. That the way the game is now. Why do I do it not sure all I know is that I enjoy it. I enjoy the job as well

laoch na mona · 20-01-2017 09:55AM

20silkcut wrote: »

Every economist going

Except the socialist and Keynesian economists that is

20silkcut · 20-01-2017 10:32AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The answer you question is NO. Sorry for shouting after a few pints. It is all about ethos. Farmer locally was employed by a tech company. They made him redundant and paid him a pile of cash. 4-6 months later he was back in as a subcontractor. From a lad that works in there he was supposed to be doing less and getting paid more. When you farm and work there is a perception from both side, the farming and the lads that work with you that because they cannot do it that you must be screwing the system. Some manager's above you are jealous well maybe that is a harsh word, envious might be more appropriate. Other managers recognise the ethos and live with the conflict.

It about priority's there is no doubt that when you are employed by someone else you have to give that job it due. But this idea that you will not be a better than average employee is not looking at the ethos. As Jesus said ''render unto Ceased what is Ceasers's, and to God what is God's''.

I would be inclined to disagree I do not think you could be the best farmer you can possibly be and at the same time be the best employee for your company that you can possibly be.
Part time farming is a balancing act and a trade off between your two careers.
As I said earlier the ideal job for a farmer is a less meaningful insecure type work that he can take to supplement his income in bad times and quit it again when the farm turns around for him. An off farm job should be a stepping stone to becoming a full time farmer.
Having a solid secure desirable career outside of farming is not ideal from a farming viewpoint. If the farm can't compete with a solid career and you are capable of having a solid career then questions should be asked. Now if you can afford to employ a full time farm manager that is different then you are in a wealth creation situation again.

Username John · 20-01-2017 10:34AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am in the higher tax bracket as well, so is the better half. Would I lease no pushed the farm for last 2-3 years was above 170 kgN/ HA. ( Hit above 190 in reality above 200 as had a bit of bog/ marsh that I was hardly grazing). Dropped back last year and again this year. Know a full-time farmer and he is dropping back stocking rate as well. That the way the game is now. Why do I do it not sure all I know is that I enjoy it. I enjoy the job as well

Hope you enjoyed the few pints Bass

Twas more the time element was the main motivation for me to lease some of the place. But I will admit that the tax free aspect was prob the thing that definitely confirmed it.

Not saying everyone should do it. Just wanted to let Rob know is all, when he mentioned the tax aspect. It suited me, for my current situation...

20silkcut · 20-01-2017 10:44AM

Robson99 wrote: »

The farm is mine and I can farm it whatever way I want

That is true and thankfully we live in a country where property rights are sacrosanct . However even though your intentions are genuine and I'm sure you have the same love of farming as us all you are indirectly contributing to stagnation in farming. There is a deadweight loss in your decision to run your farm at a reduced stocking rate or whatever limits you put on your farming enterprise.

Grueller · 20-01-2017 11:34AM

20silkcut wrote: »

I would be inclined to disagree I do not think you could be the best farmer you can possibly be and at the same time be the best employee for your company that you can possibly be.
Part time farming is a balancing act and a trade off between your two careers.
As I said earlier the ideal job for a farmer is a less meaningful insecure type work that he can take to supplement his income in bad times and quit it again when the farm turns around for him. An off farm job should be a stepping stone to becoming a full time farmer.
Having a solid secure desirable career outside of farming is not ideal from a farming viewpoint. If the farm can't compete with a solid career and you are capable of having a solid career then questions should be asked. Now if you can afford to employ a full time farm manager that is different then you are in a wealth creation situation again.

Have to disagree strongly. I had what would be considered a desirable off farm job. I left it to start my own company doing the same thing, as a contractor.
An off farm job should not be a stepping stone to full time farming as for anyone without an ideal farm full time farming is merely a pipe dream.
My question that I want to ask is, as a suckler farmer on 115 acres, calving 70ish cows, am I not operating to capacity? Being on farm any more hours will not increase output. My profit monitors are consistently well inside the top third of beef farmers. How would a situation with a low value insecure employment improve my lot?

whelan2 · 20-01-2017 11:58AM

A bord bia inspector!

kowtow · 20-01-2017 12:10PM

whelan2 wrote: »

A bord bia inspector!

What about a council environmental inspector? well turned out, decent car, get to come back every week to check on the favourite client(s)?

20silkcut · 20-01-2017 01:19PM

Grueller wrote: »

Have to disagree strongly. I had what would be considered a desirable off farm job. I left it to start my own company doing the same thing, as a contractor.
An off farm job should not be a stepping stone to full time farming as for anyone without an ideal farm full time farming is merely a pipe dream.
My question that I want to ask is, as a suckler farmer on 115 acres, calving 70ish cows, am I not operating to capacity? Being on farm any more hours will not increase output. My profit monitors are consistently well inside the top third of beef farmers. How would a situation with a low value insecure employment improve my lot?

First off that farm would be instantly more productive if it was switched to a dairy farm. I don't need to hear about the particular logistics of doing that in your situation as I am sure there are many good reasons for you not to do that. But it is a simple fact that dairy farming is a far more productive farming enterprise and utilises land a lot more efficiently than suckers. With all due respect remember the only reason we have a beef industry is due to the SFP/BPS.

Second would you be better off if you concentrated on either one career or the other. I think common sense would dictate that you would. If you devoted your time entirely to farming you would probably have to make that switch to dairy farming . 115 acres would sustain a good dairy herd.

Likewise If you concentrated on your off farm career and sold or rented out the farm you would be better off in terms of pure economics and leisure/family time etc.

If a farm is not capable of being a full time operation guys should question themselves. I understand emotional attachment to land but I reckon that would disappear fairly quick if the Subsidies were removed in the morning.

If you had a farm capable of being a full time operation then any kind of part time job would help you to achieve that goal.

Muckit · 20-01-2017 01:24PM

20silkcut wrote: »

That is true and thankfully we live in a country where property rights are sacrosanct . However even though your intentions are genuine and I'm sure you have the same love of farming as us all you are indirectly contributing to stagnation in farming. There is a deadweight loss in your decision to run your farm at a reduced stocking rate or whatever limits you put on your farming enterprise.

And I suppose people will have different ideas on things and everyone's views are to be respected. I would have no problem with a person farming their farm in a very intensive way. Nor with a person running only a few animals or planting it or doing whatever they wanted with it. So long as both farmers weren't doing any harm to the environment or interfering with anyone else's rights, what about?

I don't really understand your 'deadweight' loss thinking. I don't think things are as cut and dry as saying a farmer that farms intensively is better for everything and everyone than an extensive farmer. Every person's situation and farm are different and need to be evaluated differently.

20silkcut · 20-01-2017 01:33PM

Muckit wrote: »

And I suppose people will have different ideas on things and everyone's views are to be respected. I would have no problem with a person farming their farm in a very intensive way. Nor with a person running only a few animals or planting it or doing whatever they wanted with it. So long as both farmers weren't doing any harm to the environment or interfering with anyone else's rights, what about?

I don't really understand your 'deadweight' loss thinking. I don't think things are as cut and dry as saying a farmer that farms intensively is better for everything and everyone than an extensive farmer. Every person's situation and farm are different and need to be evaluated differently.

Of course I agree completely we are a free society and people are free to do whatever they wish with their land and property and it certainly does not bother me either.
It's just when we are on forums like this and complaining about prices and co-ops and Larry goodman etc just remember that inefficient use of land and protectionism and subsidies are doing more to stagnate and impoverish farming in this country than any other entity.
It's easier focus our ire on figure heads.
Deadweight loss is the untapped potential.

Bass Reeves · 20-01-2017 01:50PM

Silkcut I think you have this fantasy of an ideal world. Free trade would impoverish Irish farmers. Output would drop. At present we compete in a free trade area within Europe. Our nearest market which we produce beef for is one of the highest priced in the world. Yet we struggle to produce product for it at a decent profit to the producer. Even though we have free trade nationalist tendency in the trade means we achieve a price of 20% less that that nations product. The largest suckler herd's in Ireland are in the 150 cow region. Maybe there is one or two higher. The smallest herd's in the US are 3-400. While in theory the US has low levels of regulation this is changing as water use by feedlots is causing them issues as wells have to go deeper and deeper to access ground water.

At present free trade is causing nationalist tendency in some countries thi is why Trump was elected in the US and Brexit happened. Per capita we are between 10-15 richest in the world depending on the ranking. In such an environment I do not think free trade would improve our lot.

You seem to be obsessed with output, but the reality is that output is set by profitability. Most beef produced by other than grass in Ireland is at approximately break even price. So efficiently and increasing output may not increase profitability. There are other factors at play. Mountain lamb production has been decimated over the last 20 years even though we have access to the highest priced lamb markets in the world. It had been decimated by the perception that all sheep meat had to be sub 12 months in age. Gone is the market for 2-3 year old mutton. Similarly with beef the market demands certain spec and if we cannot produce to that spec to a high priced market we will struggle to achieve that specification to a lower priced market.

What sized drystock unit would allow one to farm full-time and have an adequate living .IMO you would need a farm larger than 200 acres of goodish land at present with a SFP of average entitlement (approximately 20k) with none rented. Without subsidy add another 100 acres. If you had such a farm the most profitable production system would be an extensive system with low to mid value I/P and O/P.

20silkcut · 20-01-2017 03:23PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Silkcut I think you have this fantasy of an ideal world. Free trade would impoverish Irish farmers. Output would drop. At present we compete in a free trade area within Europe. Our nearest market which we produce beef for is one of the highest priced in the world. Yet we struggle to produce product for it at a decent profit to the producer. Even though we have free trade nationalist tendency in the trade means we achieve a price of 20% less that that nations product. The largest suckler herd's in Ireland are in the 150 cow region. Maybe there is one or two higher. The smallest herd's in the US are 3-400. While in theory the US has low levels of regulation this is changing as water use by feedlots is causing them issues as wells have to go deeper and deeper to access ground water.

At present free trade is causing nationalist tendency in some countries thi is why Trump was elected in the US and Brexit happened. Per capita we are between 10-15 richest in the world depending on the ranking. In such an environment I do not think free trade would improve our lot.

You seem to be obsessed with output, but the reality is that output is set by profitability. Most beef produced by other than grass in Ireland is at approximately break even price. So efficiently and increasing output may not increase profitability. There are other factors at play. Mountain lamb production has been decimated over the last 20 years even though we have access to the highest priced lamb markets in the world. It had been decimated by the perception that all sheep meat had to be sub 12 months in age. Gone is the market for 2-3 year old mutton. Similarly with beef the market demands certain spec and if we cannot produce to that spec to a high priced market we will struggle to achieve that specification to a lower priced market.

What sized drystock unit would allow one to farm full-time and have an adequate living .IMO you would need a farm larger than 200 acres of goodish land at present with a SFP of average entitlement (approximately 20k) with none rented. Without subsidy add another 100 acres. If you had such a farm the most profitable production system would be an extensive system with low to mid value I/P and O/P.

In the history of mankind no country or society has ever been worse off in a free trade scenario There would be winners and losers. But the benefits always outweigh the losses. To say output would drop is wrong in fact the opposite would happen. In a free enterprise free trade world the surplus ceilings would be much higher. You would have to go a lot further to reach an overproduction scenario like we saw in powder milk last year. Add in the potential customer base of 7+ billion whose lives would be gradually improving who would have more money to spend in an economically free world. Obviously the beef industry would be decimated. That would be the loss. There would be a definite drop in output there.
There would have to be a major adjustment in Irish agriculture but all our advantages would be still there. Some farms would just convert to dairying. Some would be involved in dairy support industries like forage production contracting or heifer rearing. Maybe we would finally get a proper contracting industry rather than the tough industry it is at the moment. You would have a lot less farmers doing a bit of contracting on the side giving dedicated contractors a fighting chance. Some farms would probably be planted. In a world of no subsidies the forestry premiums would be a no brainier. But there would be a hell of a lot more wealth and opportunity in Irish agriculture for those who want to work. There would also be more scope for lower taxes in a world of no subsidies.
But it is all pure fantasy. There will probably never be such a scenario in our lifetimes. Absolute free trade with hands off government has only ever occurred in isolated pockets around the globe. The chances of it ever becoming a global reality is nil. But it is the reason why most things are the way they are. I heard a report the other day about the 10 or 20 richest men in the world having the same wealth as the bottom 5 billion . The media nearly paint it as those men have robbed that wealth off those people. But they didn't they probably earned it through private enterprise or inherited it or whatever. Unless or until any of them are jailed or prosecuted for theft we have to assume that. But those bottom five billion are poor because of their corrupt governments and bad economic policies which always have protectionism or socialism or whatever "ism" at their heart.
This country gave 4 and a half decades paralysed by protectionism until it was abandoned in the mid 60's and life in this country is a lot better now than it was then.
Media spin such as that about the rich men robbing the poor feed into our belief that we will lose our wealth if the poor become wealthy as if there is a finite amount of wealth in the world and we must hold and protect ours therefore we don't want trade with these economies this is the Donald trump syndrome and it is absolute bull ****.
Just look at what liberalised trade with China has done for us. Milk quotas lifted after 30 years new processing plants built large scale expansion in dairying to supply china. When you buy stuff off the poor and improve their lives it will come back to you.

Best job for part time farmer.

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