Username John wrote: » 20silkcut wrote: » Honestly I think if your home farm doesn't stack up financially on its own two feet what is the point? For the love of it ? Fair enough I understand that. I think I said 'stack up financially full time' So are you saying what's the point in farming part time? I think a lot has to do with love of it. Plus, its a handy second income, on its own its not much, but on top of an existing wage - its very nice...
20silkcut wrote: » Honestly I think if your home farm doesn't stack up financially on its own two feet what is the point? For the love of it ? Fair enough I understand that.
20silkcut wrote: The thing is a farm or any business should grow and improve as time goes by. If a farm is being limited in its growth by an off farm job then questions need to be asked. Likewise if an off farm job is being limited by the farm. Would a teacher not be better off doing grinds in their time off or spending more time on their career and try and become a principal. Or even just use their time off for leisure or holidays and be fresher going in to work and healthier. If your not growing your farm it stagnates and it does not reach its full potential. This has a negative impact on the wider agricultural economy. Likewise If your not furthering your career it stagnates and potential remains unfulfilled. I don't see the point in having an unfulfilled farm and an unfulfilled career.
kowtow wrote: » 20silkcut wrote: The thing is a farm or any business should grow and improve as time goes by. If a farm is being limited in its growth by an off farm job then questions need to be asked. Likewise if an off farm job is being limited by the farm. Would a teacher not be better off doing grinds in their time off or spending more time on their career and try and become a principal. Or even just use their time off for leisure or holidays and be fresher going in to work and healthier. If your not growing your farm it stagnates and it does not reach its full potential. This has a negative impact on the wider agricultural economy. Likewise If your not furthering your career it stagnates and potential remains unfulfilled. I don't see the point in having an unfulfilled farm and an unfulfilled career. The question which keeps crossing my mind is what sort of well run business would employ a farmer whose mind at least, if not the rest of him, would rather be at home sorting out the farm. Notwithstanding the fact that farmers are by and large great workers. Tricky balance to strike there.
20silkcut wrote: » This is a very worthy and genuine reason and it is what drives many farmers in this country myself included. The thing is a farm or any business should grow and improve as time goes by. If a farm is being limited in its growth by an off farm job then questions need to be asked. Likewise if an off farm job is being limited by the farm. Would a teacher not be better off doing grinds in their time off or spending more time on their career and try and become a principal. Or even just use their time off for leisure or holidays and be fresher going in to work and healthier. If your not growing your farm it stagnates and it does not reach its full potential. This has a negative impact on the wider agricultural economy. Likewise If your not furthering your career it stagnates and potential remains unfulfilled. I don't see the point in having an unfulfilled farm and an unfulfilled career.
Username John wrote: » I kinda see it the opposite way... You seem to see two jobs as competing with each, whereas I see them complimenting really... I work in an office, so to go home on a nice evening and head out is nice, I find it relaxing. It may seem odd to say, but I find it therapeutic. On the flip side - I head off to my office job every morning, and I work as hard as I can there, I find that fulfilling, as I like my job. In terms of what pays better - the full time job, absolutely hands down. The returns from farming don't compare. This is part of the reason I have some of our place leased on a long term lease - I kept some of it back, to 'hobby farm' as you say yourself It still needs to generate a profit, but its less workload for me, plus the money from the tax-free lease is as much as I could generate myself from farming it, with a lot less time and effort...
20silkcut wrote: » What I am highlighting is the potential loss to the economy by part time farming. The fact that a farm is being farmed part time generally means it is not being farmed to its fullest potential now I know there are exceptions to this. But there is a loss in terms of cattle/milk/crop sales a loss in terms of input/contractors/vets etc . This is all unseen and painless because it is activity that does not exist so nobody misses it but it is a lost opportunity. Taking the example of the teacher society loses out by having a part time farmer teacher in that the said teacher is unlikely to partake in extra curricular work or give grinds or put in the extra work needed to improve their career. It is a lose lose in pure economic terms. But of course that is all very abstract. As you say in your post nothing beats getting home from work and heading out into the fields to check the cattle on a summers evening.
Cran wrote: » I would think full time farmers with high SFP has as much on impact farms not reaching full potential as farmers with part time jobs do tbh
20silkcut wrote: » In my opinion the SFP or BPS is the root of all evil in farming. And is most responsible for stifling potential .
patsy_mccabe wrote: » Producing more isn't necessarily the best option. We are already exporting 90% of what we produce. Prices in relative terms are probably at an all-time low. Producing more would make matters even worst.
20silkcut wrote: » Yes but if we didn't have a protected industry we would have a lot more export options. As long as we have the SFP/BPS we will be shut out of many lucrative markets and reduce our trading options. If we had proper open free trade we would be absolutely flat keeping our markets supplied. Look at every poor country and failed economic system in the world and you will see that government interference and control is the root cause of all poverty not overproduction.
Bass Reeves wrote: » I would much prefer to employ a semi-interested good worker rather than a lazy sod. I see lads that are more interest in avoiding any work that have nothing to do in the evening . There is an old saying if you want something done ask the busy man.
Robson99 wrote: » I would think a job as a butcher would compliment being a farmer! Office job here. Farm 40 acres. Look on farm as a pastime / hobby that generates enough profit for a family Sun holiday every year. Would I rent land..no as I'm in the higher tax bracket as it is and wouldn't be worth it Am I maximising the farm to its potential... I would say its to the potential I want it to be at Is this a loss to the economy because I might not have it at its max potential...I couldn't give a **** whether it is or not. The farm is mine and I can farm it whatever way I want
Username John wrote: » I'm in the higher tax bracket as well Rob, that was part of the reason I leased some - its tax free for a 5+ year lease.
kowtow wrote: » Bass Reeves wrote: » I would much prefer to employ a semi-interested good worker rather than a lazy sod. I see lads that are more interest in avoiding any work that have nothing to do in the evening . There is an old saying if you want something done ask the busy man. Me too, every time. What I had in mind was the more high-tech businesses which often demand employees with the same kind of dedication and commitment that the farmer shows to his herd or his farm. I wonder does dedication to the farm limit the options as far as jobs where the farmer can really fit in and excel, as opposed to turn up on time and work hard.
Username John wrote: » That may be - although not sure I fully agree with it... But what you seem to be saying is in an ideal world, with no SFP, and lucrative markets to buy everything we produce - that part-time farmers wouldn't 'cash in' on this and produce to their capacity? If you are - I would disagree strongly... But, we have come a long way from what job fits nicely with farming I think...
Username John wrote: » Robson99 wrote: » I would think a job as a butcher would compliment being a farmer! Office job here. Farm 40 acres. Look on farm as a pastime / hobby that generates enough profit for a family Sun holiday every year. Would I rent land..no as I'm in the higher tax bracket as it is and wouldn't be worth it Am I maximising the farm to its potential... I would say its to the potential I want it to be at Is this a loss to the economy because I might not have it at its max potential...I couldn't give a **** whether it is or not. The farm is mine and I can farm it whatever way I want I'm in the higher tax bracket as well Rob, that was part of the reason I leased some - its tax free for a 5+ year lease.
20silkcut wrote: » Every economist going
Bass Reeves wrote: » The answer you question is NO. Sorry for shouting after a few pints. It is all about ethos. Farmer locally was employed by a tech company. They made him redundant and paid him a pile of cash. 4-6 months later he was back in as a subcontractor. From a lad that works in there he was supposed to be doing less and getting paid more. When you farm and work there is a perception from both side, the farming and the lads that work with you that because they cannot do it that you must be screwing the system. Some manager's above you are jealous well maybe that is a harsh word, envious might be more appropriate. Other managers recognise the ethos and live with the conflict. It about priority's there is no doubt that when you are employed by someone else you have to give that job it due. But this idea that you will not be a better than average employee is not looking at the ethos. As Jesus said ''render unto Ceased what is Ceasers's, and to God what is God's''.
Bass Reeves wrote: » I am in the higher tax bracket as well, so is the better half. Would I lease no pushed the farm for last 2-3 years was above 170 kgN/ HA. ( Hit above 190 in reality above 200 as had a bit of bog/ marsh that I was hardly grazing). Dropped back last year and again this year. Know a full-time farmer and he is dropping back stocking rate as well. That the way the game is now. Why do I do it not sure all I know is that I enjoy it. I enjoy the job as well
Robson99 wrote: » The farm is mine and I can farm it whatever way I want
20silkcut wrote: » I would be inclined to disagree I do not think you could be the best farmer you can possibly be and at the same time be the best employee for your company that you can possibly be. Part time farming is a balancing act and a trade off between your two careers. As I said earlier the ideal job for a farmer is a less meaningful insecure type work that he can take to supplement his income in bad times and quit it again when the farm turns around for him. An off farm job should be a stepping stone to becoming a full time farmer. Having a solid secure desirable career outside of farming is not ideal from a farming viewpoint. If the farm can't compete with a solid career and you are capable of having a solid career then questions should be asked. Now if you can afford to employ a full time farm manager that is different then you are in a wealth creation situation again.
whelan2 wrote: » A bord bia inspector!
Grueller wrote: » Have to disagree strongly. I had what would be considered a desirable off farm job. I left it to start my own company doing the same thing, as a contractor. An off farm job should not be a stepping stone to full time farming as for anyone without an ideal farm full time farming is merely a pipe dream. My question that I want to ask is, as a suckler farmer on 115 acres, calving 70ish cows, am I not operating to capacity? Being on farm any more hours will not increase output. My profit monitors are consistently well inside the top third of beef farmers. How would a situation with a low value insecure employment improve my lot?
20silkcut wrote: » That is true and thankfully we live in a country where property rights are sacrosanct . However even though your intentions are genuine and I'm sure you have the same love of farming as us all you are indirectly contributing to stagnation in farming. There is a deadweight loss in your decision to run your farm at a reduced stocking rate or whatever limits you put on your farming enterprise.
Muckit wrote: » And I suppose people will have different ideas on things and everyone's views are to be respected. I would have no problem with a person farming their farm in a very intensive way. Nor with a person running only a few animals or planting it or doing whatever they wanted with it. So long as both farmers weren't doing any harm to the environment or interfering with anyone else's rights, what about? I don't really understand your 'deadweight' loss thinking. I don't think things are as cut and dry as saying a farmer that farms intensively is better for everything and everyone than an extensive farmer. Every person's situation and farm are different and need to be evaluated differently.
Bass Reeves wrote: » Silkcut I think you have this fantasy of an ideal world. Free trade would impoverish Irish farmers. Output would drop. At present we compete in a free trade area within Europe. Our nearest market which we produce beef for is one of the highest priced in the world. Yet we struggle to produce product for it at a decent profit to the producer. Even though we have free trade nationalist tendency in the trade means we achieve a price of 20% less that that nations product. The largest suckler herd's in Ireland are in the 150 cow region. Maybe there is one or two higher. The smallest herd's in the US are 3-400. While in theory the US has low levels of regulation this is changing as water use by feedlots is causing them issues as wells have to go deeper and deeper to access ground water. At present free trade is causing nationalist tendency in some countries thi is why Trump was elected in the US and Brexit happened. Per capita we are between 10-15 richest in the world depending on the ranking. In such an environment I do not think free trade would improve our lot. You seem to be obsessed with output, but the reality is that output is set by profitability. Most beef produced by other than grass in Ireland is at approximately break even price. So efficiently and increasing output may not increase profitability. There are other factors at play. Mountain lamb production has been decimated over the last 20 years even though we have access to the highest priced lamb markets in the world. It had been decimated by the perception that all sheep meat had to be sub 12 months in age. Gone is the market for 2-3 year old mutton. Similarly with beef the market demands certain spec and if we cannot produce to that spec to a high priced market we will struggle to achieve that specification to a lower priced market. What sized drystock unit would allow one to farm full-time and have an adequate living .IMO you would need a farm larger than 200 acres of goodish land at present with a SFP of average entitlement (approximately 20k) with none rented. Without subsidy add another 100 acres. If you had such a farm the most profitable production system would be an extensive system with low to mid value I/P and O/P.
