I bet you didnt know that

Realt Dearg Sec

mr chips wrote: »

Further down the page are references to Bram Stoker.  So there ye go - the Dracula story comes from Ireland, not Transylvania!

Well, either way the story has clear resonances with contemporary Ireland, and has been read widely by Irish studies scholars as allegorising the Famine and more generally the exploitative relationship between landlords and tenants in 19th century Ireland. Vampire legends often emerge in colonial societies and other conditions of economic exploitation (as do zombie legends closely tied to the exploitation and dehumanisation of labour in cash crop societies, suddenly industrialised regions etc). The idea that Stoker was drawing directly, and not just metaphorically, on Irish experience and legend isn't at all far-fetched, though I have no idea if he was using the Irish language pun knowingly or not. I suspect not.

Ipso

Really, I thought the main theme of Dracula was Victorian sexual repression and Eastern European immigration.

retalivity

I used to know a guy whose dad was on the committee to come up with irish translations for new words - he reckons it was his idea to have idirlíon as internet.

Having sexy time up my way was implied with "an bhfuil tu ag iarraidh an cur isteach?", Literally 'do you want the put in?'

Fourier

retalivity wrote: »

I used to know a guy whose dad was on the committee to come up with irish translations for new words - he reckons it was his idea to have idirlíon as internet.

This might be naive, but I never really understood this type of committee, which is located in Dublin as far as I can tell. Isn't the word "decided" by the use of native speakers in the Gaeltacht? It'd be like a committee in Madrid deciding what Catalan words there are.

IvyTheTerrible

Fourier wrote: »

This might be naive, but I never really understood this type of committee, which is located in Dublin as far as I can tell. Isn't the word "decided" by the use of native speakers in the Gaeltacht? It'd be like a committee in Madrid deciding what Catalan words there are.

Not so far-fetched.
The Academie in France is a bunch of old Parisian men (almost entirely) and they decide the new French words, often with little regard to how real people actually use them.

Fourier

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Not so far-fetched.
The Academie in France is a bunch of old Parisian men (almost entirely) and they decide the new French words, often with little regard to how real people actually use them.

That's true, funny job in general. In France they get robes and are sworn in, like a "knight of words".

IvyTheTerrible

Fourier wrote: »

That's true, funny job in general. In France they get robes and are sworn in, like a "knight of words".

And they are called the Immortals because it is literally a job for life.

Professor Moriarty

Fourier wrote: »

This might be naive, but I never really understood this type of committee, which is located in Dublin as far as I can tell. Isn't the word "decided" by the use of native speakers in the Gaeltacht? It'd be like a committee in Madrid deciding what Catalan words there are.

An Caighdeán Oifigiúil (Official Standard) was established in 1958 and is updated by the translation department in the Dáil. While native speakers have their own dialect, the same form of Irish is taught all over the country. Similarly, Spain would need the equivalent standard if Catalan were to be taught throughout Spain.

Chancer3001

Well ya need a committee to decide what new technological terms are called officially.

In gaeltachts, they often just use the English word for new stuff.

Most of the "new" stiff to Ireland has stupid sounding and looking Irish words.

E.g. pizza is píotsa. Spaghetti is spaigití ...

Whereas we have our own "proper" words for foods that existed back when Irish was widely spoken.

The committee is needed for new vehicles , scientific terms , technological advances etc.

I guess there's an English equivalent who decide what gets added to the dictionary every year

Capt'n Midnight

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Not so far-fetched.
The Academie in France is a bunch of old Parisian men (almost entirely) and they decide the new French words, often with little regard to how real people actually use them.

Take for example the popular - alunir - the verb for landing on the Moon.

There's only six people left alive who can use the first person.
And they haven't been able to use the present tense since at least 1972.
And that only if they spoke French.

http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/alunir
http://verbmaps.com/en/verb/fr/alunir

Capt'n Midnight

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I guess there's an English equivalent who decide what gets added to the dictionary every year

OED
Q.E.D.

maudgonner

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

An Caighdeán Oifigiúil (Official Standard) was established in 1958 and is updated by the translation department in the Dáil. While native speakers have their own dialect, the same form of Irish is taught all over the country. Similarly, Spain would need the equivalent standard if Catalan were to be taught throughout Spain.

It's not just the Caighdeán though. There is also the terminology database, tearma.ie.

This is the National Terminology Database for Irish, developed by Fiontar & Scoil na Gaeilge, DCU in collaboration with An Coiste Téarmaíochta, Foras na Gaeilge.

They are (afaik) responsible for abominations such as svuít (suite) and tvuít (tweet). Apparently it's now acceptable to use letters that traditionally don't exist in the Irish language to produce an ugly approximation of an English word.

IvyTheTerrible

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Take for example the popular - alunir - the verb for landing on the Moon.

There's only six people left alive who can use the first person.
And they haven't been able to use the present tense since at least 1972.
And that only if they spoke French.

http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/alunir
http://verbmaps.com/en/verb/fr/alunir

Ah but what about fiction!

Professor Moriarty

maudgonner wrote: »

It's not just the Caighdeán though. There is also the terminology database, tearma.ie.



They are (afaik) responsible for abominations such as svuít (suite) and tvuít (tweet). Apparently it's now acceptable to use letters that traditionally don't exist in the Irish language to produce an ugly approximation of an English word.

Wouldn't tuít and suít phonetically be the same as tweet and suite? Much as buí is bwee?

Chancer3001

V has been used since vans became a mode of transport.

Van = veain

Professor Moriarty

Chancer3001 wrote: »

V has been used since vans became a mode of transport.

Van = veain

Bh? Mh? Really pathetic to import letters when they're not needed.

maudgonner

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Bh? Mh? Really pathetic to import letters when they're not needed.

Well in English 'van' is a contraction of 'caravan'*, which is translated as carabhán...


Chancer's right though in fairness, there are lots of 'V' words that have been around for ages. Those two in particular just grieve me because they're so needlessly ugly.


(*which some people probably didn't know, so hopefully I'm not dragging the thread off topic :pac:)

Chancer3001

Languages move with the times. It's what happens when they're alive

English is going to have a huge impact on Irish . Even more so in future as we get newer words.

Féinphic was added lately for a selfie!

maudgonner

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Languages move with the times. It's what happens when they're alive

English is going to have a huge impact on Irish . Even more so in future as we get newer words.

Féinphic was added lately for a selfie!

I actually really like that one - it makes sense and isn't a phonetic translation

Professor Moriarty

maudgonner wrote: »

I actually really like that one - it makes sense and isn't a phonetic translation

Not phonetic but you take it on your fón.

I'll get my coat.

server down

What’s interesting to me is why the monks didn’t use the V in Latin script for what is now the V sound produced by Bh (then the b with the delens or dot over it). Was Latin not pronouncing the V at the time? And if V was W then why not use that?

Realt Dearg Sec

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

OED
Q.E.D.

The difference with the OED is that it is a dictionary, and dictionaries don't coin terms, they reflect usage. That's why people's irritation when they add terms like selfie, or the use of "literally" to mean "figuratively" is misguided. The dictionary isn't a set of prescriptive laws for correct usage, it is an ongoing, evolving record of historical and current usage, and so they have to include the "new" meaning of literally, if the dictionary is to be an accurate reflection of usage.

That's different to the Academie in France, who see coinage as their job, and pursue a deliberate, ideologically driven policy of coining terms that are dissimilar to the (usually English) terms they need to find French equivalents for.

Incidentally Hungary has a similar institute in the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, and like other languages there is a tendency to end up with two words for neologisms, one similar to English and the other a weird sounding alternate. Computer=komputer=sza'mi'to'ge'p

Ipso

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Bh? Mh? Really pathetic to import letters when they're not needed.

Wasn't the letter P "imported"?
I know the well known instance is the emergence of the name Patrick, but it pops up in a couple other places; a group known as the Menappi who were based in Leinster (there was a similar named group in Southern England who may have had a Belgic background) and the gaelic name for crab which is portan (and may have a non Indo European origin) and there was a group in Connacht known as the Partraighe.

Professor Moriarty

Ipso wrote: »

Wasn't the letter P "imported"?
I know the well known instance is the emergence of the name Patrick, but it pops up in a couple other places; a group known as the Menappi who were based in Leinster (there was a similar named group in Southern England who may have had a Belgic background) and the gaelic name for crab which is portan (and may have a non Indo European origin) and there was a group in Connacht known as the Partraighe.

I don't know, but if it was imported back then it would have been over two thousand years ago. Considering English, for example, wouldn't begin to be spoken for another 500 years, then 'p' surely deserves its Irish citizenship.

mr chips

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

maudgonner wrote: »

I actually really like that one - it makes sense and isn't a phonetic translation

Not phonetic but you take it on your fón.

I'll get my coat.

Or your guthán. :P From "guth", a word for voice.

Tromaíocht is the word for bullying and is derived from the word "trom", meaning heavy. You don't want the heavies sent round ... Bulaí, on the other hand, akin to saying bravo! - bulaí fir is more or less good man. It may well be where the English phrase "bully for you" comes from.

There were no rats in Ireland till the Normans arrived, allegedly. So they were called "luchóg francach" - a French mouse. This later was shortened to "francach". So the word for rat and for French person is the same in Irish.

Each (pronounced "ach") is an old word for horse, probably derived from the Latin equus. So there's a nice symmetry in the way that Loch n-Eachach - Horse Lake - is called Lough Neagh.:D

A poetic one to finish up. When someone has died, a way to pass on that information is to say that they are "ar shlí na fírinne" - on the way of truth.

Right, I'll leave it there - don't want to hijack the thread!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

The Irish term for an otter is 'madra uisce'- water dog. My grandparents in Mayo always call them water dogs.

Meanwhile, in Korean, the word 물개 (mulgae) also literally means water dog but refers to a seal.

Ipso

There is also the mythological/paranormal creature the Dobhar Cu (which resembles an otter) which means water hound, Dobhar is a word water (used in place names like Gweedore and Dover).
Can someone correct me is I'm wrong, but is the word Dobhar used in the context of a body of water whereas uisce is more for drinking water?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

What did Eamonn O Cuiv call himself before the v was introduced to Irish?

Ipso

Daingin.

New Home

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

What did Eamonn O Cuiv call himself before the v was introduced to Irish?

Wild guess, but perhaps Ó Caoimh?