The irony of ireland`s homelessness crisis

FreudianSlippers

pilly wrote: »

What does IIRC stand for?

If I Remember Correctly.

realitykeeper

kippy wrote: »

Top people in the public service are paid nothing close to what top people in the privivate secotor earn.
Calling the public sector a parasite is ridiculous. The public sector delivers services and supports the running of the state. Very valuable services. Surely you wouldnt expect these to be delivered for for free.
As for minimum wage going to 3 euro?how do you expect people for pay for oil,eelctronics,or indeed anything else?
Again,i worry about some of the posts here

We will never agree about the public sector.

With a low cost economy, things would become possible. Electronics could be manufactured here so they would be a source of income rather than expenditure. Solar panels, wind turbines and electric cars could be produced here, thereby reducing dependence on oil while bringing in an income and cutting the cost of buying these things from abroad.

Recycling properly by hand would become a viable enterprise, instead of paying the Dutch to incinerate our waste, and probably paying fines in Europe for doing so.

realitykeeper

pilly wrote: »

I'm so surprised that this thread is still going. I'm trying to think of a diplomatic word for the majority of posts but can't think of one so I'd better stay civil.

Lets just say that not a lot of it makes an ounce of sense and I gave up trying to figure them out about 5 pages ago.

Would you like us to dumb it down for you pilly?

pilly

realitykeeper wrote: »

Would you like us to dumb it down for you pilly?

No no, it's quite dumb enough thank you.

realitykeeper

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

IIRC a certain poster in this thread was advocating nationalising the Dell factory a few years ago and having Ireland attempt to run this factory in competition with other manufacturers. It's really implausible stuff for a number of reasons.

I am inclined to agree. If however, Dell were to announce they were going to close their plant, the one thing that might persuade them to change their minds might be the abolishment of the minimum wage and an offer by the workers to work for a pittance.

cerastes

I cant see that letting all the banks fail would have been a good thing, but certainly Anglo should have been let fall flat on its face.
On top of that, any support of the other Domestic Banks should have come with conditions. These Banks seem to be acting like they were independant self financing organisations, instead they have taken support from taxpayer funds. The operation of the Banks should not be against the interests of taxpayers and natural justice.

realitykeeper

Walter H Price wrote: »

Lets be honest none of us really know what would have happened had we let the banks go to the wall , not that we ever had that option, it would have been a massive step into the unknown and could have done potentially more damage then the bailout has done.

But again its a mute point , Europe (Germany) dictated that the Irish government would gaurentee the banks as it has done and is still doing across across Europe, Italian , Spanish and Greek banks remain in serious financial difficulty but will not be allowed fail ans this would have a detrimental impact on the value and integrity of the single currency.

No point dwelling on this issue , the crisis to an extent and the solution to it were far in a way beyond the control of any Irish political party or politician, any future major action taken in relation to the Irish banks will also be directed by Brussels not the Dail.

I do not agree with you. Ireland had a choice. It choose to bail out the banks. Ireland still has a choice, it can default and in my opinion it will eventually default. I believe people should pay their debts, but I do not see the cost of the bank bailout as adding to my part of the national debt. I did not default on my mortgage.

Walter H Price

realitykeeper wrote: »

I do not agree with you. Ireland had a choice. It choose to bail out the banks. Ireland still has a choice, it can default and in my opinion it will eventually default. I believe people should pay their debts, but I do not see the cost of the bank bailout as adding to my part of the national debt. I did not default on my mortgage.

to be honest your living in dreamland , unless we leave Europe if thats even possible (lets see how the UK get on) we will not be allowed default, just as we were not permitted nor was any other European country to allow their banks to fail. Even Greece and their extreme left government didn't mange to default. Europe will not allow Banks in eurozone states to fail as it will impact the currency as a whole as every , shock , crash and bailout has nor will the kick counties out as that equally will undermine the markets confidence and affect the value of the single currency.

We are a small part of big group , in which we have little power or voice. As long as we remain in the EU and the single currency you will never see a default. I don't agree with the bailout either but acknowledge the Irish government had very very little say in the matter the same as the Italians , Spanish , Portuguese and Greeks. The main European powers will protect the value and integrity of the single currency at all costs.

realitykeeper

pilly wrote: »

No no, it's quite dumb enough thank you.

Evidently not, after all it doesn`t make an ounce of sense to you.

Suryavarman

realitykeeper wrote: »

Evidently not, after all it doesn`t make an ounce of sense to you.

It's probably because you post complete an utter nonsense that comes from a weak understanding of how the world works. Which is quite ironic given your username.

realitykeeper

Walter H Price wrote: »

to be honest your living in dreamland , unless we leave Europe if thats even possible (lets see how the UK get on) we will not be allowed default, just as we were not permitted nor was any other European country to allow their banks to fail. Even Greece and their extreme left government didn't mange to default. Europe will not allow Banks in eurozone states to fail as it will impact the currency as a whole as every , shock , crash and bailout has nor will the kick counties out as that equally will undermine the markets confidence and affect the value of the single currency.

We are a small part of big group , in which we have little power or voice. As long as we remain in the EU and the single currency you will never see a default. I don't agree with the bailout either but acknowledge the Irish government had very very little say in the matter the same as the Italians , Spanish , Portuguese and Greeks. The main European powers will protect the value and integrity of the single currency at all costs.

Simply because Ireland would not have been given more money if it`s banks defaulted does not mean Ireland did not have a choice. It had a choice and it choose to do the stupid and cowardly thing by bailing out the banks.

It will be funny when the next recession hits and many Irish and European banks will come looking for more handouts. The Irish banks are going to fail anyway, despite the last bailout and the next recession will see the EU break apart. I expect a devastating recession to hit toward the end of this year and the EU will (unfortunately) disintegrate within a few months of that.

Suryavarman

realitykeeper wrote: »

Simply because Ireland would not have been given more money if it defaulted does not mean Ireland did not have a choice. It had a choice and it choose to do the stupid and cowardly thing by bailing out the banks.

Bailing out the banks was the smart thing to do. The fallout out from a failing banking system would have been devastating.

It will be funny when the next recession hits and Irish and European banks will all come back again looking for more handouts. The Irish banks are going to fail despite the last bailout and the next recession will see the EU break apart. I expect a devastating recession to hit toward the end of this year and the EU will (unfortunately) disintegrate within a few months of that.

I think this is the 7th recession you've predicted in the last 3 years. In addition to numerous bouts of hyperinflation you've also incorrectly predicted.

PMBC

realitykeeper wrote: »

By getting rid of the minimum wage, Ireland can compete with China. Needless to say, politicians and civil servants would need to have their salaries cut by at least 75% before the minimum wage is abolished. The dole would also have to be reduced substantially and prices would also fall.

So how would we have paid for our imports and oil with lower total earnings in the economy? Some of the imports have value added and become manufactured goods and some of those are exports.

realitykeeper

PMBC wrote: »

So how would we have paid for our imports and oil with lower total earnings in the economy? Some of the imports have value added and become manufactured goods and some of those are exports.

Already asked and answered a couple of posts back.

PMBC

cerastes wrote: »

I cant see that letting all the banks fail would have been a good thing, but certainly Anglo should have been let fall flat on its face.
On top of that, any support of the other Domestic Banks should have come with conditions. These Banks seem to be acting like they were independant self financing organisations, instead they have taken support from taxpayer funds. The operation of the Banks should not be against the interests of taxpayers and natural justice.

They operate on the Too big to fail principle. At least part of the problem is that they competed in lending money to risky ventures to increase their profits, shareholder value and bonus payments. They were part, but not all, of the process and problem. Exacerbated by light-touch regulation which was led and dictated by government. Soft landing!

realitykeeper

Suryavarman wrote: »

Bailing out the banks was the smart thing to do. The fallout out from a failing banking system would have been devastating.



I think this is the 7th recession you've predicted in the last 3 years. In addition to numerous bouts of hyperinflation you've also incorrectly predicted.

A failing banking system would indeed have been devastating but my point is that the Irish banks are going to fail anyway. The QE funded bailout program will ultimately fail and when it does that will be the end of the EU.

I have only ever predicted one recession.

Zubeneschamali

realitykeeper wrote: »

I expect a devastating recession to hit toward the end of this year and the EU will (unfortunately) disintegrate within a few months of that.

Kudos to you for sticking to your dates, I fully expected you to move the devastating recession and end of the EU out by one year every year.

So when it doesn't happen this year, will you admit you were wrong, or spot the small error in your calculations and announce that 2020 is definitely the year?

kippy

realitykeeper wrote: »

We will never agree about the public sector.

With a low cost economy, things would become possible. Electronics could be manufactured here so they would be a source of income rather than expenditure. Solar panels, wind turbines and electric cars could be produced here, thereby reducing dependence on oil while bringing in an income and cutting the cost of 8buying these things from abroad.

Recycling properly by hand would become a viable enterprise, instead of paying the Dutch to incinerate our waste, and probably paying fines in Europe for doing so.

How do you think electronics are currently manufactured?
How do people buy oil and everything that has an impact on when minimim wage is so low? How do people afford food etc
Calling 300k odd people who do a job for the state while paying their taxes parasitic os something I am surprised you have been allowed get away with on top of the frankly crazy notions you continue to peddle

Walter H Price

realitykeeper wrote: »

Simply because Ireland would not have been given more money if it`s banks defaulted does not mean Ireland did not have a choice. It had a choice and it choose to do the stupid and cowardly thing by bailing out the banks.

It will be funny when the next recession hits and many Irish and European banks will come looking for more handouts. The Irish banks are going to fail anyway, despite the last bailout and the next recession will see the EU break apart. I expect a devastating recession to hit toward the end of this year and the EU will (unfortunately) disintegrate within a few months of that.

Oh i agree that the banks are on permanent life support at this point and not just our own but Greece's , Portugal , Spain and Italys. The banking crisis is far from over.

I disagree that Ireland had much if any choice not to implement the bail out , we are not in control of our own currency and the decision was made at senior European level that banks would not be allowed to fail as the ramifications would have seen a disorderly break up of the Eurozone

realitykeeper

kippy wrote: »

How do you think electronics are currently manufactured?
How do people buy oil and everything that has an impact on when minimim wage is so low? How do people afford food etc
Calling 300k odd people who do a job for the state while paying their taxes parasitic os something I am surprised you have been allowed get away with on top of the frankly crazy notions you continue to peddle

In a low cost economy, everything becomes cheaper and a lot of things that presently "impossible" suddenly become possible. Anyone with business savvy will see opportunities where currently there are none. Home produced goods from horticulture to middle and even low value manufacturing will become possible for the domestic market and inevitable surpluses will be available for export.

If I give you a hundred euro and then take back 10, then I am giving you 90 euro. State and semi state employees only pay pretend taxes on their earnings.

marienbad

realitykeeper wrote: »

In a low cost economy, everything becomes cheaper and a lot of things that presently "impossible" suddenly become possible. Anyone with business savvy will see opportunities where currently there are none. Home produced goods from horticulture to middle and even low value manufacturing will become possible for the domestic market and inevitable surpluses will be available for export.

If I give you a hundred euro and then take back 10, then I am giving you 90 euro. State and semi state employees only pay pretend taxes on their earnings.

Have you any experience of manufacturing ?

realitykeeper

Walter H Price wrote: »

Oh i agree that the banks are on permanent life support at this point and not just our own but Greece's , Portugal , Spain and Italys. The banking crisis is far from over.

I disagree that Ireland had much if any choice not to implement the bail out , we are not in control of our own currency and the decision was made at senior European level that banks would not be allowed to fail as the ramifications would have seen a disorderly break up of the Eurozone

Is it possible to keep banks on permanent life support? We both agree if the banks fail it will probably lead to the breakup of the EU. I believe it will be even more catastrophic if it happens in the future (after all the bailouts) than it would have been if it had been allowed to happen in 2008/9.

KingBrian2

Walter H Price wrote: »

Oh i agree that the banks are on permanent life support at this point and not just our own but Greece's , Portugal , Spain and Italys. The banking crisis is far from over.

I disagree that Ireland had much if any choice not to implement the bail out , we are not in control of our own currency and the decision was made at senior European level that banks would not be allowed to fail as the ramifications would have seen a disorderly break up of the Eurozone

Ireland did have a choice. We chose to join the Euro and we ratified numerous treaties consolidating our position on remaining part of the EEC, EC or EU.

ancapailldorcha

Realitykeeper will be taking a day off.

kippy

realitykeeper wrote: »

In a low cost economy, everything becomes cheaper and a lot of things that presently "impossible" suddenly become possible. Anyone with business savvy will see opportunities where currently there are none. Home produced goods from horticulture to middle and even low value manufacturing will become possible for the domestic market and inevitable surpluses will be available for export.

If I give you a hundred euro and then take back 10, then I am giving you 90 euro. State and semi state employees only pay pretend taxes on their earnings.

"Pretend Taxes" - That's a new one to me.
Anyway - have you any idea what a "low cost" economy means?

Walter H Price

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Ireland did have a choice. We chose to join the Euro and we ratified numerous treaties consolidating our position on remaining part of the EEC, EC or EU.

Cant argue there ireland chose to join the EU and Eurozone , as a reult we lost controll over our own currency and but because of this i honestly believe Brian Lenihan had little or no choice but to bail out the banks in 08

KingBrian2

Walter H Price wrote: »

Cant argue there ireland chose to join the EU and Eurozone , as a reult we lost controll over our own currency and but because of this i honestly believe Brian Lenihan had little or no choice but to bail out the banks in 08

I agree people are welcome the pros and cons of having a separate currency but devaluation is not what i would support. The € provides us with the ability to trade with the rest of the world and i would be prepared to argue the great benefits that the € offers us. I know many don't share my view on this.

Suryavarman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I agree people are welcome the pros and cons of having a separate currency but devaluation is not what i would support. The € provides us with the ability to trade with the rest of the world and i would be prepared to argue the great benefits that the € offers us. I know many don't share my view on this.

The Euro has been a disaster for Ireland. During the boom monetary policy was too loose for Ireland. And over the past few years it was far too tight. Unemployment would never have reached the level it did if we had our own currency and we'd probably be back at full employment by now as well. And as bad as its been for us it's been even worse for Greece and Spain.

The Euro has been bad for every country apart from Germany and a complete disaster for many countries. It has been a political vanity project masquerading as sound economic policy. Its introduction has resulted in political instability throughout Europe and is probably the worst thing to happen to the EU.

KingBrian2

Suryavarman wrote: »

The Euro has been a disaster for Ireland. During the boom monetary policy was too loose for Ireland. And over the past few years it was far too tight. Unemployment would never have reached the level it did if we had our own currency and we'd probably be back at full employment by now as well. And as bad as its been for us it's been even worse for Greece and Spain.

The Euro has been bad for every country apart from Germany and a complete disaster for many countries. It has been a political vanity project masquerading as sound economic policy. Its introduction has resulted in political instability throughout Europe and is probably the worst thing to happen to the EU.

I thoroughly disagree in the 50's and 80's we had bad recessions and in both cases we had the Punt. What do you put that down to? Looking across the European spectrum the last time the different European countries had their own currencies inflation was a huge problem. The bad old days of the lira, drachma and peso. You can believe what you like if you look at the raw economic data the € has improved the economies of all the members who are € holders.

Suryavarman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I thoroughly disagree in the 50's and 80's we had bad recessions and in both cases we had the Punt. What do you put that down to? Looking across the European spectrum the last time the different European countries had their own currencies inflation was a huge problem. The bad old days of the lira, drachma and peso. You can believe what you like if you look at the raw economic data the € has improved the economies of all the members who are € holders.

Up until the late 1970s the Irish Punt was pegged to the pound. Ireland then joined the ERM. This was before the neoliberal revolution of the 1980s when the need for greater central bank independence was recognised throughout the developed world. This means that Ireland has never had a truly independent central bank that could pursue a monetary policy that best suited Ireland's economic needs. If Ireland didn't join the ERM then it would likely have granted greater independence and powers to the central bank than had ever been seen previously in this country. As Ireland has always left foreign institutions decide its monetary policy, talking about past performance with the Punt is irrelevant.

That graph is a damning indictment of the Eurozone. Those growth rates are pathetic. Needless to say those growth rates are worse than the EU 28, and unemployment is higher in the Eurozone than in the EU 28. If you are interested in understanding why the Euro is a terrible idea then I suggest reading Krugman (2012). It's a short and non-technical paper that gives a brief but non-exhaustive overview of optimum currency area theory and why the Eurozone isn't one.