Irish Rail & Building Beside Lines

Jamie2k9

This is something that really annoys me and is it time that legislation was introduced to restrict building next to railways (i.e. the field next to tracks).

In major cities and towns such as the DART line it's not a problem and un avoidable however along intercity routes it's about time planning restrictions were put in place.

On the outskirts of Nass, Kildare and Newbridge in recent months new housing estates have gone up right next to the line. They are not central stations by any means so I really don't see how this should be allowed. Just compare them to Carlow/Portlaoise etc where they run into the middle of the town.

The problem this will create are no expansion in future without CPU's and increased line closures because residents will lobby IE and any sort of political pressure and IE will give in.

I get the impression that IE don't really mind what's happening.

It could be just me or do people who live in such houses know what they are letting themselves in for?

stop

I'd just be happy if we saw construction on both sides of the line..

Bray Head

A 5-metre corridor either side of every railway line in the country is an absolutely trivial amount of land.

You would think it should be automatically preserved for future growth, no matter how far into the future.

I've seen four-tracking under way in Belgium on railways put down in the late 19th century. Clearly sensible planning in the interim.

McAlban

We couldn't even preserve land from Lifted Lines for future preservation. (Look at Dunboyne to Navan). The Track was barely closed when the first encroachment, levelling and building took place.

NiallBoo

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

In major cities and towns such as the DART line it's not a problem

I would say this is where it's the biggest problem.

Lack of space is by far the biggest stumbling block in quad-tracking the DART and removing level-crossings.

In general you're absolutely right. There's no future planning at all. I wonder if these steps haven't been taken because for so long rail travel was (is?) just thought of as a hangover from the past and something that'll eventually be done away with as cars continue to take over.

kc56

Back in the '80s when the M50 was being planned, someone had the foresight to make the M50 bridge over the Dubin-Cork railway wide enough, just about, for 4-tracks. Image the disruption if they had to demolish and re-build that bridge when the 4-tracking was done 30 years later.

NiallBoo

kc56 wrote: »

Back in the '80s when the M50 was being planned, someone had the foresight to make the M50 bridge over the Dubin-Cork railway wide enough, just about, for 4-tracks. Image the disruption if they had to demolish and re-build that bridge when the 4-tracking was done 30 years later.

Aye, when I said no forward planning above it would have been better to say "very little". N road/motorway bridges do seem to have some in mind.

Jamie2k9

NiallBoo wrote: »

I would say this is where it's the biggest problem.

Lack of space is by far the biggest stumbling block in quad-tracking the DART and removing level-crossings.

In general you're absolutely right. There's no future planning at all. I wonder if these steps haven't been taken because for so long rail travel was (is?) just thought of as a hangover from the past and something that'll eventually be done away with as cars continue to take over.

I agree but it's to late now, the double of capacity between Hazelhatch will happen within next 15-30 years and unless something is done soon it will be to late.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I agree but it's to late now, the double of capacity between Hazelhatch will happen within next 15-30 years and unless something is done soon it will be to late.

Between Hazelhatch and ?

BonnieSituation

kc56 wrote: »

Between Hazelhatch and ?

With DU We could say Drogheda couldn't we...

Jamie2k9

kc56 wrote: »

Between Hazelhatch and ?

At least Newbridge or Kildare. It's just inevitable.

Combined with Gov going to announce strategy for Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway and possibly a midlands town to become a city and build up populations there over the next 15 years.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

At least Newbridge or Kildare. It's just inevitable.

Combined with Gov going to announce strategy for Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway and possibly a midlands town to become a city and build up populations there over the next 15 years.

If they got as far as Sallins, that would make a difference; going beyond Sallins could be very problematic starting with ploughing through Sallins where there very little room for a wider bridge. Need much more is 4 or at least 3 tracking at the Dublin end. Delays at Parkwest where the up lines merge are very frequent. Extra tracks wouldn't solve all the issues as trains needs to cross paths - e.g to/from PPT or Heuston 6,7.8.

Jamie2k9

kc56 wrote: »

If they got as far as Sallins, that would make a difference; going beyond Sallins could be very problematic starting with ploughing through Sallins where there very little room for a wider bridge. Need much more is 4 or at least 3 tracking at the Dublin end. Delays at Parkwest where the up lines merge are very frequent. Extra tracks wouldn't solve all the issues as trains needs to cross paths - e.g to/from PPT or Heuston 6,7.8.

Forgot about that bridge but you could easily adjust Sallins layout and even if lines did require 4 to become 2 and back to 4 after the bridge it wouldn't be a problem.

Park West has some issues however I don't think extending 4 lines by a mile or two would solve them overly well. Heuston would need major layout changes and for example that unused blue shed be removed.

Any nothing will happen anytime soon.

road_high

Been a while since I was on it, but isn't there room on the Carlow/Kilkenny/Waterford line for 2 tracks as far as Carlow? Maybe there was 2 in the past and they pulled them?
Can't see it happening anytime soon or anything but would hardly cost the earth if the room is there.

BonnieSituation

road_high wrote: »

Been a while since I was on it, but isn't there room on the Carlow/Kilkenny/Waterford line for 2 tracks as far as Carlow? Maybe there was 2 in the past and they pulled them?
Can't see it happening anytime soon or anything but would hardly cost the earth if the room is there.

They'll find a way for it to cost the earth and of course use that as justification or not bothering.

road_high

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They'll find a way for it to cost the earth and of course use that as justification or not bothering.

I doubt they'd bother, IR never showed much interest in this line in any case. No doubt the "passenger numbers don't justify" etc
Best we can hope for increased capacity nearer Dublin freeing thing up a bit.

Jamie2k9

road_high wrote: »

Been a while since I was on it, but isn't there room on the Carlow/Kilkenny/Waterford line for 2 tracks as far as Carlow? Maybe there was 2 in the past and they pulled them?
Can't see it happening anytime soon or anything but would hardly cost the earth if the room is there.

There is room more less for 2 tracks as far as Thomastown, after that and it would cost a lot. In some rare forward planning the M9 bridges, KK ring road and underpass in Carlow were all built so double tracking is possible. Old bridges all build with 2 tracks as well.

They'll find a way for it to cost the earth and of course use that as justification or not bothering.

As a regular users I would love it doubled however I couldn't make the case for spending money doing it. If anything it's the 15 miles or so gaps for passing loops south of Muine Bheag and two services meeting in Kilkenny that cause the most problems.

Athlone-Portarlington needs it a lot more.

candor

The tracking in and out of Dublin needs doubling to 4 for sure, the whole system is creaking at the moment (I commute on the northern line) and with the planned dart expansion along with other trains I can foresee more problems.

As has been mentioned, a little planning would have gone a long way to keep this as an option going forward.

techman1

The tracking in and out of Dublin needs doubling to 4 for sure, the whole system is creaking at the moment (I commute on the northern line) and with the planned dart expansion along with other trains I can foresee more problems.

I think there is now an advanced plan to increase to 4 track between connelly and malahide. It's gone to an bord planeala, alot of pr and publicity about it in last few days. However deep in the planning application is the actual maps of the areas that could be compulsory purchased basically an area both sides of the line is up for grabs. That's a hell of alot of properties to be acquired, could be very messy I would imagine

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/102213789#Comment_102213789

Nah, sure then how would we know just exactly which side was the wrong side of the tracks?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708143#Comment_122708143

Nothing has gone to ABP for quad tracking.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/102236433#Comment_102236433

On a side note, this reminds me, I found out the other day that my grandfather was the chief civil engineer of the N67 Oranmore dual carriageway bypass back in the day and apparently insisted that the bridge over the railway line (half a mile east of the current Oranmore station) be built to accommodate a second track - my dad even remembers standing in that space as a young lad with grandad as a train roared past.

Not sure if the 1km dynamic passing loop included in the upgrade plans for the station stretches as far as the bridge but one day Galway - Athenry will need full doubling so hopefully his efforts come to fruition! (Sorry for the tangent but only found this out the other day and given the context, thought I’d share!)

LastCall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122710776#Comment_122710776

Lovely story, credit to your grandfather for his forsight.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708143#Comment_122708143

I'm on the list of properties that might be bought out. I hope they buy the entire property outright and not half my back garden.

I genuinely believe given the hassle they will face with Quad Tracking, that it will be 20/30 years again it's completed. (same as Metro)

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752471#Comment_122752471

Probably the government will have wasted all the corporation tax billions by the time they get around to it, they won't have the money to buy up all that property. It's long established houses that have been there for generations that they need to buy up and demolish. That would be horrendous, I wonder is there a precedent anywhere else in the western world where it was necessary to buy up so much city centre property in order to put in another railway line. Most cities would already have the railway lines put in long ago. Usually city centre development is for underground metro not railway lines?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752514#Comment_122752514

Dublin's problems with Rail infra are unique in that, at one time we had much of the required rail networks and links… but someone decided to rip them all up. Ireland also didn't have an industrial revolution which has made things worse.

It's a complex problem, requires a dedicated team with strong legal powers and the ability to act quickly. (IE Dept of Infra)

Sam Russell

If four tracking the northern line is such an issue, why not put a Metro line in under the current line as far as Malahide that would replace the Dart line.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122754227#Comment_122754227

That may become necessary if four-tracking is found to be impossible. I think the goal is to avoid that at all costs because if the AISRR cost estimates for four-tracking and the D+ tunnel are at least somewhat accurate, it could likely be multi-billion euro project where four-tracking is an up to one billion euro project. Otherwise, it could also take far longer to deliver compared to four-tracking.

We should have an idea for the approach they can take soon enough, consultation on four-tracking the line is supposed to be complete within the next few months.

techman1

Dublin's problems with Rail infra are unique in that, at one time we had much of the required rail networks and links… but someone decided to rip them all up.

Yes there was a big anti British bias in the establishment back in the 50 and 60s, they saw railways as old British stuff that needed to be gotten rid of as ireland was going the American route with cars and motorways everywhere.

NNow we have the exact opposite extreme with the establishment reducing road space for cycle lanes etc because that is now the "new future " There never seems to be a balanced thought through decision making process here. It's always maverick ministers and powerful officials making big changes that are subsequently regretted.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122757039#Comment_122757039

I’d argue the opposite: we blindly followed what the UK was doing in the 1960s. Over there, the 1963 Beeching Report recommended extensive railway line closures on the grounds that the UK was transitioning to a long-distance travel system based on private cars and motorways. We, a nation that would have not one mile of motorway for another two decades, decided that we should also stop investing in rail.

But: ask yourself why you describe adding a cycle-lane as a "reduction"? In terms of the ability to carry people, a 3.0 metre cycle lane has a far higher capacity than a 3.0 m vehicle lane. A lot of our transportation problems are down to a historical mindset that private cars are the only thing that needs to be facilitated by our road infrastructure.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122757039#Comment_122757039

I would not agree with the anti-British angle in the 1950s and 1960s.

The move to remove trams was to 'modernise' the public transport in Dublin to go with diesel buses which had many advantages - like the buses were shiny and new, and the trams were old and falling apart. They had already robbed many two track lines to repair or replace worn out tracks elsewhere. The country was bust.

They have removed lots of tracks and infrastructure around the Dun Laoghaire port area. It was possible to go from the mail boat directly onto a train stopped on the jetty, but all of that has gone. All that is left is the through tracks and one siding. The siding on the other platform has recently disappeared.

The sidings between Pearse and GCD have also disappeared and a buildiing is sprouting from the site. Where will they stable their diesels?

They are very good at reducing their options.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122760412#Comment_122760412

Well if you want an anti-British angle you can point to the Angle Irish Trade War that did tremendous damage to the Irish economy. Now that ended by 1938, but was then followed by WW2. All of this added up to why Ireland was so broke right up to the 1960's, so broke that they could even maintain some tram lines.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122761701#Comment_122761701

I think that is enough on anti-British angle as it is very much off-topic.

I will leave it there.

MayoSalmon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122760412#Comment_122760412

Nothing needed to be ripped up to "modernise"

The London subway was built in 1863 for goodness sake 

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122762516#Comment_122762516

The trams were not 'modern' because they were old and falling to bits due to poor maintenance (probably due to lack of funds). Diesel buses were much shinier and new.

Rails were removed to fix worn out one elsewhere in the network. Removing the second track achieved this.

Some of this was parish-pump politics and some was making do with next to nothing. Remember, the state was in a state financially. [The word BILLION had not been invented and the state had a problem finding thousands, let alone millions.

I am talking about the economic war over annuities claimed by the British Gov and the Irish Gov.

The Mathematician

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122760412#Comment_122760412

I seem to remember the reason the track was removed from the pier when the DART was introduced was something to do with the line leading to it. It was either that the curvature was too great or possibly that there was not enough headroom for the overhead.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122763035#Comment_122763035

Yes, the economic war was ended with Ireland making a one off payment of £10 million to the British Government. That was big money then. Shows how broke we were back then and how far our economy has come since then.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122763292#Comment_122763292

Do not forget that the price of the pint in the 1930s was 2 or 4 pence or about 2c in Euro.

So that was a lot of money. Did we get the annuities money?

KrisW1001

Maybe we need a "Irish history, and how it got us our current infrastructure" thread?

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we keep on topic please. History lessons are not on topic.