Planning ahead for new house - where to start?

bk

I'd put at least two cat6 drops in each room and maybe 3 or 4 where you plan on having TV.

cat6 can not only carry ethernet for internet, etc. but it also can carry HDMI for TV.

You will want at least one to carry the ethernet and at least a second to carry the HDMI.

Yes, you should have all the cat6 going back to a single server/storage room and potentially you can have all your AV gear there, feeding multiple rooms.

It can also be a good idea to have 2 or 3 satellite cables going to each location where you want to have a TV and obviously have the two to three satellite cables going to the "server" room to feed the AV gear. Tell the other half, this is very much part of the building.

BTW It is a really good idea to do this now, it is WAY cheaper to do all this when the house is being built, rather then try and retrofit it later.

corcadorcha

bk wrote: »

I'd put at least two cat6 drops in each room and maybe 3 or 4 where you plan on having TV.

cat6 can not only carry ethernet for internet, etc. but it also can carry HDMI for TV.

You will want at least one to carry the ethernet and at least a second to carry the HDMI.

Yes, you should have all the cat6 going back to a single server/storage room and potentially you can have all your AV gear there, feeding multiple rooms.

It can also be a good idea to have 2 or 3 satellite cables going to each location where you want to have a TV and obviously have the two to three satellite cables going to the "server" room to feed the AV gear. Tell the other half, this is very much part of the building.

BTW It is a really good idea to do this now, it is WAY cheaper to do all this when the house is being built, rather then try and retrofit it later.

Thanks BK.
What do you think of neutrals to switches for lights and possibly cat6 to switch also?
I have seen setups with light switches running off cat6 back to switch / hub.. W would it be worth putting these in now. This is more for lighting than audio/av...
I don't want to scare the electrician!!

Thanks.

eddiem74

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Thanks, these and the Varilight ones posted above look good. Why did you use retractive switches? Is it so they can be stateless and not be effected by changes you make using logic at the hub (eg. Off a certain time after button is pressed) so they are back to square one awaiting the next command?

What modules would you recommend for inside the back box behind those switches?

They can be stateless, support dimming and can be programmed with scenes e.g. triple click/press turns all downstairs lights on or sets house in away or home mode.

I used Fibaro Dimmer2's for all lights.

eddiem74

FrankGrimes wrote: »

And on the LED strips topic, I spoke to a relative who is an electrician. He confirmed general approach is to go with LED drivers that are wired into the mains (rather than the ones which need a plug, which he described as more DIY-type).

And either way, you find where you want to put the driver in a place that can be concealed and then run electrical cable to the point where you want to bring it out of the wall, and then use more cable to join between any breaks you want to make in the strips of LED (e.g. different shelves). If you're going with a switch (rather than purely automated), another cable for that.

He also said one approach is to run standard mains cable back to the fuseboard and put the LED driver and dimmer module there so you have easy access to it, and it can then be split out at the far end and soldered to the LED strip where you need it. Has the advantage that should there be an issue and you need to move the driver or dimmer to the destination room at any point, you can do that and connect the mains cable directly to the fuseboard and to the driver at the other end.

Big advantage of this approach of putting the drivers and dimmer modules at the fuseboard location is you don't need to know exactly where you want to put every single LED strip when doing the first fix of cabling (if you were putting drivers and dimmers in the destination room, you'd need to know where you'd be hiding them. So just run the cable back to the fuseboard to, say, roughly the bath area, and then later when doing the tiling you can figure where exactly to bring the cable out from behind the tiles. So it gives a lot more flexibility and less need to plan every detail in advance. Should be particularly useful for the garden lights, just run plenty of cable back to the fuseboard and figure out how to use it later.

As I hadn't heard this approach before, I wanted to share it in case it's helpful for others and also to see if people have experiences with it and can confirm the pros and cons.

And if want LED control via a wall switch in the room?

I installed a LED Driver and Fibaro RGBW module during a sitting room revamp in a pelmet which holds a projector. I powered the LED Driver from an existing wall switch and the driver fed the Module and 2 x 5M LED strips. NOTE: it is important the LED driver can support the power requirement of the LED strips, my electrician had to do some maths to ensure it all worked out.:pac:

I was only learning about this stuff at the time and had the re-plastering done when I realised I could have used a wall switch to turn on/off the strips and control a few predefined scenes or favorite colors for ease of use of other family members and house guests but it was to late for me the pull the 4 core RGBW cable back to the switch location.

Centrally housing the LED Drivers makes sense but I would probably still consider the 4 core RGBW cable to the in room switch

bk

corcadorcha wrote: »

Thanks BK.
What do you think of neutrals to switches for lights and possibly cat6 to switch also?
I have seen setups with light switches running off cat6 back to switch / hub.. W would it be worth putting these in now. This is more for lighting than audio/av...
I don't want to scare the electrician!!

Stoner would have better experience then my in this area. I think neutral at switches is useful to have and not difficult to add.

As for cat6 at switches, I think it is probably unnecessary. Most of the smart lighting systems are using wireless for communication nowadays.

FrankGrimes

Yes, neutrals needed for switches if using on/off switching. I'm going with z-wave so if you want to use a dimmer, 2-wires are enough, but a no-brainer to run the 3rd neutral wire to all switches to give options. I started out thinking Cat6 to switches would be needed, but it seems unnecessary now due to strong wireless options.

For benefit of others doing similar research to me: for z-wave you just need a module in the back box behind the light switch, a relay for an on/off switch, or a dimmer module. With dimmer module, best to use a momentary (aka retractive) switch so you tap it to turn on/off, hold it down/up for dimming, then it pops back to the midpoint when you release. Vesternet.co.uk is a wealth of information, really informative stuff. I've gone ahead and purchased 20 Fibaro Dimmer 2 modules as they had them on sale, I'm confident we need them, and we got provisional positive indication on our planning application.


I'm a little surprised that for sockets it seems the automation of the actual socket is relatively uncommon, it's mostly the plugin modules that people use (plug it into the socket then plug your appliance into it). I find those quite an eyesore so wanted to go integrated at least for sockets that would be visible and where I want automation control. Vesternet article on this is a few years old and suggests when you put a relay module (seems same Fibaro ones as used for lights are the ones used for sockets), you can't control each socket on a dual socket unit individually, mentions back box space restrictions, and is generally negative on this option. Is there a more recent outlook on these (e.g. Can they now control each socket individually) as with planning for deep back boxes, I can't see that much of a downside in using them.

On the LEDs, I'll need to discuss further with my electrician relative on how he'd plan to wire for switches when having the LED drivers centralised back at the hub, but he did mention it so am sure it'll be fine, though I'd just want on/off, and at most dimming, at the switch, colour control would come from an app.

Bradz213

Hi,

Been following the thread a bit but just have one question. I purchased a new build and neutrals are ran to the switches. Can I use Z-Wave relays to allow me to have dual control of a light ie I can use an app and the switch to power on/off the light regardless of the position of the physical switch?

Wossack

Bradz213 wrote: »

Hi,

Been following the thread a bit but just have one question. I purchased a new build and neutrals are ran to the switches. Can I use Z-Wave relays to allow me to have dual control of a light ie I can use an app and the switch to power on/off the light regardless of the position of the physical switch?

yes

FrankGrimes

Bradz213 wrote: »

Hi,

Been following the thread a bit but just have one question. I purchased a new build and neutrals are ran to the switches. Can I use Z-Wave relays to allow me to have dual control of a light ie I can use an app and the switch to power on/off the light regardless of the position of the physical switch?

I may well be missing something, but also just to point out: Fibaro dimmer modules are about the same price as the relay modules. And if it's new build going with retractive switches doesnt look much more expensive than simple on/off switches. So for me it looks more like a case of where would I not want option to dim rather than vice versa (10yrs ago when doing my first renovation dimmers cost a fair bit more than switches).

Bradz213

OK so just to make sure I'm 100% clear, I can use Fibaro dimmers with say Phillips Hue bulbs and still be able to use to turn the bulbs off at the switch and back on using an app?

bk

Bradz213 wrote: »

OK so just to make sure I'm 100% clear, I can use Fibaro dimmers with say Phillips Hue bulbs and still be able to use to turn the bulbs off at the switch and back on using an app?

Note, that I haven't done it, as I haven't any z-wave gear myself (all Hue), but yes it should work if you wire it all up correctly.

Note that the switch should be wired so that it isn't really turning off power to the Hue bulbs. The Hue bulbs should remain powered at all times. Instead what is happening is that the Fibaro dimmer just sends an "off" signal to a Z-wave bridge, which in turn sends the command to the Hue bridge, which in turn tells the bulb to go into standby mode (but still has power).

Basically the Fibaro dimmer is acting as just a virtual switch, not a "real" switch.

Wossack

personally dont think fibaro dimmers + hue bulbs is a good combination

Bradz213

Brilliant, thanks for the responses guys. I just want a solution that will still work for when guests are over.

Bradz213

Wossack wrote: »

personally dont think fibaro dimmers + hue bulbs is a good combination

Why is that now? What would you suggest?

bk

Bradz213 wrote: »

Brilliant, thanks for the responses guys. I just want a solution that will still work for when guests are over.

Well you don't really need z-wave switches for that. The Philips Hue switches work perfectly fine in my experience for guests. You just need to "hide" * the old switch. This is particularly true if you get the US Hue switch which says On/Off on it and jsut put it where a light switch would normally be.

* Cover it over, plaster it over, etc. Many different approaches.

Wossack

Bradz213 wrote: »

Why is that now? What would you suggest?

I think setting the fibaro dimmer to trigger its hub, to contact IFTTT to contact the hue hub, to tell the bulb to turn on and off is very roundabout, and introduces a) latency b) a requirement for your internet to work for your lights to turn on/off. Both very undesirable imo

I would just go one route or the other (hue bulbs + hue switches), or zwave modules & regular switches/bulbs.

bk

BTW some talk here about using LightwaveRF switches with Hue here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/3gc5ir/uk_wall_switches_for_phillips_hue/

Not sure how far he got with it, but another possible option.

Actually now that I think of it, you could probably use LWRF to IFTTT to trigger Hue lights, though that might be slow and unreliable, a local controller would be better.

bk

Wossack wrote: »

I think setting the fibaro dimmer to trigger its hub, to contact IFTTT to contact the hue hub, to tell the bulb to turn on and off is very roundabout, and introduces a) latency b) a requirement for your internet to work for your lights to turn on/off. Both very undesirable imo

BTW, you don't have to use IFTTT, if I'm not mistaken, some Z-wave hubs (Smarthings) can talk directly to the Hue hub at the local level. Which should make it almost simultaneous and more reliable then IFTTT.

You are correct that it still adds complexity and thus potential for more things to go wrong. That is why I partly went all Hue and I'm very happy with it. However I think this hybrid approach could probably work well too.

Though to be honest, the real reason is that I just found the Hue switches to work extremely well and thus felt there was no need for the extra cost of z-wave switches/relays.

To be honest, I think some people are just getting a bit stuck thinking too much in the old way of controlling lights. Once you use the Hue switch, you quickly forget about the old lights as long as they are hidden away.

I've a rule, not to introduce new technology into widespread use in my home until it can easily and reliably be used by my whole family. Hue switches have turned out to be zero issues for my family.

FrankGrimes

On the switch appearance: I got one of the Hue switches and just don't like the appearance or feel of it. Recently learning that zwave modules means you can use any face plate and switch swung it for me, I think some of the Schneider and Varilight stuff looks very well and for some reason having nice looking switches is important to me.

In most cases where I'm lighting a large area, zwave module, standard faceplate,momentary switch controlling large number of GU10 leds will be perfect as I don't need white ambience there. In many cases where I want ambience of colour control, I'll got Fibaro RGBW with quality LED strips, and struggle to see how Hue would be a better option there. In the few cases where I want ambience control from GU10 or other downlight or spotlight bulbs, that Zwave + Hue solution sounds very good.

And great to know SmartThings can do local control of Hue, assume same for zwave? Deciding what hib to go for still has me perplexed but if lighting control can be managed locally I may just plump for the discounted Smartthings starter pack as the level of community support and development is a big plus.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

And great to know SmartThings can do local control of Hue, assume same for zwave? Deciding what hib to go for still has me perplexed but if lighting control can be managed locally I may just plump for the discounted Smartthings starter pack as the level of community support and development is a big plus.

I don't have one yet, but my understanding is that SmartThings can act as a hub for z-wave devices (perhaps with some tinkering) and that it can in turn communicate with the Hue Hub (note you still need the Hue Hub).

If you get this, let us know how it goes. You will be one of the first people on this forum to do this, I think.

BTW the advantage of Hue for me, is simply it's fantastic ecosystem (native GHome, Alexa, Siri/HomeKit, IFTTT, Stringify, Yonomi, Harmony Hub, Nest, etc.) it just seems to support absolutely everything and is really easy to setup.

Also the fantastic range of third party apps for it that do all sort of interesting things.

By comparison, while z-wave stuff seems very interesting, it seems to be much more complicated to setup and integrate with other systems. I feel it is a lot more geeky/homebrew and less consumer friendly.

Nothing wrong with all that, just my feeling from researching all that. Having said all that, I'm sure I'll eventually end up with some nice z-wave toys

Roen

FrankGrimes wrote: »

And great to know SmartThings can do local control of Hue, assume same for zwave? Deciding what hib to go for still has me perplexed but if lighting control can be managed locally I may just plump for the discounted Smartthings starter pack as the level of community support and development is a big plus.

Just on that note, during the last AWS outage about two months back all my Smartthings --> Hue automations failed. There's been a few firmware updates on the Smartthings hub since but I am still not sure it doesn't need to talk back to the cloud to trigger Hue lights.
That said it normally works as quick if not quicker than Hue's own hub!

bk

Roen wrote: »

That said it normally works as quick if not quicker than Hue's own hub!

I've never found the Hue hub to be anything but lightning fast! I honestly couldn't notice difference from a normal light switch!

Roen

bk wrote: »

I've never found the Hue hub to be anything but lightning fast! I honestly couldn't notice difference from a normal light switch!

Are you using hue switches? In my case I use motion sensors almost exclusively. I have a couple of hue dimmer switches but only use them in odd cases when guests are about.
The zwave motion sensors or zwave open/close sensors tend to trigger hue lights via smartthings quicker than the hue motion sensors do.
Not sure are my batteries running down but the range seems to be shrinking too!

bk

Roen wrote: »

Are you using hue switches? In my case I use motion sensors almost exclusively. I have a couple of hue dimmer switches but only use them in odd cases when guests are about.

Ah, yes, mostly use Hue Switch (and voice control). I've one motion sensor, but haven't set it up yet. Will be interesting to see how it works out so. Thanks for the heads up.

FrankGrimes

bk wrote: »

I don't have one yet, but my understanding is that SmartThings can act as a hub for z-wave devices (perhaps with some tinkering) and that it can in turn communicate with the Hue Hub (note you still need the Hue Hub).

If you get this, let us know how it goes. You will be one of the first people on this forum to do this, I think.

BTW the advantage of Hue for me, is simply it's fantastic ecosystem (native GHome, Alexa, Siri/HomeKit, IFTTT, Stringify, Yonomi, Harmony Hub, Nest, etc.) it just seems to support absolutely everything and is really easy to setup.

Also the fantastic range of third party apps for it that do all sort of interesting things.

By comparison, while z-wave stuff seems very interesting, it seems to be much more complicated to setup and integrate with other systems. I feel it is a lot more geeky/homebrew and less consumer friendly.

Nothing wrong with all that, just my feeling from researching all that. Having said all that, I'm sure I'll eventually end up with some nice z-wave toys

Just pulled the trigger on the Smartthings Starter Kit. Am very short on time these days so imagine it'll be a few weeks before I get time to set it up. I may well be proven wrong, but was hoping that once you have the device connected to the hub, the steps involved to get whatever automation you want setup would not be much different across devices (as the hub would handle the conditional logic and just send the instructions to the device in whatever way needed).

Do things like Stringify and Yonomi rely on your tablet/phone being part of the equation in order to work? I'm first going to focus on stuff that only needs the hub to work, and add in additional services to fill gaps, rather than complicate from the outset. e.g. Do you need Yonomi to get Alexa controlling Sonos or is that now natively supported by Alexa or Smartthings?

Still struggle with the idea of Smartthings being reliant on the internet connection not going down, will get it setup for a couple of test devices and see how reliable I do/don't find it before making my final selection on hub (thankfully still have months to trial and error and assess options).

I've taken delivery of my 20 Fibaro Dimmer 2 modules. May try to find a back box to fit one into to try it out. Will also setup the Fibaro RGBW module in an AC-adaptor-powered LED strip light and use those and a couple of zwave smart plugs for testing it all out with those and my Hue devices. Just need to find run away from the kids and find time!

FrankGrimes

Meant to say, got the Unifi AC Pro APs and installed and a Unifi Cloud Key and the 3 of them. Total overkill for my current, and possibly future, house, but so far so awesome. Surprisingly simple to setup and so far I seem to have flawless net connection all round the house, including the previously problematic spots.

So far I'm barely scratching the surface of the capabilities, just set up the basics of main and guest networks but this was surprisingly easy, Unifi Controller software has been great so far. Did few throughput tests around the house, decent results but not switching over to nearest AP quickly sometimes, will check out some YouTube videos on getting the most out of it, but wanted to post to let others considering it know, yep, it's costly, but so far it has instantly wiped out my blackspots - streaming Netflix on the ipad while in the bath is now mission accomplished!

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Do things like Stringify and Yonomi rely on your tablet/phone being part of the equation in order to work? I'm first going to focus on stuff that only needs the hub to work, and add in additional services to fill gaps, rather than complicate from the outset. e.g. Do you need Yonomi to get Alexa controlling Sonos or is that now natively supported by Alexa or Smartthings?

Yonomi/Stringify only use the phone app for setup. However they obviously run on a server ("the cloud") and so require an internet connection to work.

I don't think native Sonos support is available for Alexa yet, but supposedly it is coming.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Still struggle with the idea of Smartthings being reliant on the internet connection not going down, will get it setup for a couple of test devices and see how reliable I do/don't find it before making my final selection on hub (thankfully still have months to trial and error and assess options).

That sucks! The whole point of hubs is so that they can continue to work even when the net is down.

wexfordman2

Stumbled on this, might be of interest, brief but some good points

https://youtu.be/WJZ_8DvBdEc

FrankGrimes

Oh how time flies...I thought all my research (and some fantastic pointers received on here, thanks!) I had narrowed it down to a few options and was close to ready to plan our 1st fix for wiring, which is due to start in next week or so. But the devil is in the detail...

The Cytech Comfort smart alarm seemed to be the answer to my prayers as it allowed installing one set of motion, magnetic, shock, smoke,and even beam, sensors using simple and cost effective standard alarm equipment and wiring. The events captured by these sensors would then be communicated to the chosen home automation system via a Comfort interface module. So no need for duplicate sensors, could go OTT on sensors given low cost, and no need for battery replacement chores etc.

Options for the home automation side to interface with Comfort were then KNX, Velbus and Zwave. Unfortunately, given we have planned a large number of lighting circuits (4 in most rooms between downlighters, wall lights, LED strips etc.) and want them all to be dimmable, the costs really racked up with KNX looking in 20K ballpark, Velbus 10K, and zwave probably 5K or so.

So KNX is not affordable for me (and I can't justify the premium anyway in an age where much of the consumer stuff while maybe not as good, isn't a million miles away). Unfortunately, it turns out Comfort does not seem to handle the Velbus glass push button panels (here). I see these push button panels as the main benefit of a wired system: attractive switches which are foolproof for visitors: press a button and the smart modules are located elsewhere and just pressing one button lights up a defined scene where each of the 4 circuits are set to a certain dim %. Having a smart system where you have a 1to1 mapping between wall switches and lighting circuits seems like it would be a big missed opportunity and of limited value to us.

It also turns out Comfort does not seem to do Zwave Plus so no encryption, no option to control smart locks, and also does not seem to work with Fibaro Dimmer 2 or Fibaro RGBW modules, the two go-to options in the zwave world for normal LED and strip lights.

I'm hoping the above will be proved wrong with requested clarifications I've submitted on Comfort forum, but in the event they are correct, it severely limits the attractiveness of Comfort in my scenario and means I could have duplicate sensors between alarm and home automation systems, and may need to go for the cost of wiring in for wired sensors or costly (and hassle) battery-run sensors.

Kicking myself now I didn't just go and get a Loxone quote when I had time as I never expected the price of other options to come close to it, but probably wouldn't be far off it at this point. So I'm almost out of time and feel like I'm back at the drawing board unfortunately. I'm dead set that I want either simple push-button wall switches like Niko (here) or Rako (here) but am now tight on time to research what options that would lead to.

In one scenario, I'm now thinking that reverting to Philips Hue would be an option, even perhaps with not actually installing any traditional wall switches (to avoid the risk of people overriding the hub). This would entail running traditional wiring to the wall switch location so it's there as a fallback if we ever revert to an alternative, but what would be located there would ideally be some form of push button panel that just triggers the hub to set certain Hue scenes. And in some rooms it could be a small integrated tablet (though would prefer the tactile nature of physical buttons, easier to find in the dark) and still be lower budget than the alternatives. Does this approach seem like a runner and would it be crazy to not install traditional switches but instead go for a full Hue setup?

bk

I don't have the Comfort system myself, but I thought you could get it to talk out to the SmartThings hub?

It sounds like you are trying to get Z-wave bulbs working directly with Comfort. Instead I think what others are doing is using a software bridge on a Rapsberry Pi between Comfort and SmartThings. With this the Comforts various sensors become available in SmartThings to trigger HA actions. You can then use SmartThings to control z-wave and zigbee devices, including all the usual Fibaro modules, switches, etc.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

In one scenario, I'm now thinking that reverting to Philips Hue would be an option, even perhaps with not actually installing any traditional wall switches (to avoid the risk of people overriding the hub). This would entail running traditional wiring to the wall switch location so it's there as a fallback if we ever revert to an alternative, but what would be located there would ideally be some form of push button panel that just triggers the hub to set certain Hue scenes. And in some rooms it could be a small integrated tablet (though would prefer the tactile nature of physical buttons, easier to find in the dark) and still be lower budget than the alternatives. Does this approach seem like a runner and would it be crazy to not install traditional switches but instead go for a full Hue setup?

If you go down this route, I'd make sure to at least install wiring for a light switch at the usual positions, along with a deep back box and neutral cable. I'd cover it with a blank faceplate, to make it easy to put a switch in if you want later.

Again, I haven't tried it, but you could go with SmartThings with Z-wave switches controlling Hue scenes in SmartThings.

To be honest if you are panicking about this last minute, then perhaps just get the basics put in and worry about the tech later.

- Standard LED lights everywhere (GU10's, E27, etc.)
- Standard light switches but with extra deep back boxes and neutral at each switch.
- The cabling for wired alarm sensors in all the usual places (doors/windows/PIRs) wired back to where you are going to put the security panel.

This way you can decide later what smart systems to swap in and play around with things and experiment, without being under pressure.

The important thing to do at this point is focusing on getting the right infrastructure (wiring, etc.) in place. You can then later easily switch in and out different bulbs, switches, etc.