Planning ahead for new house - where to start?

FrankGrimes

Stoner wrote: »

I think you are on the right track here.

I wouldn't count Philips hue into an integrated system for a new build. They have no practical switching options compared to something like Fabaro. You can add it in but until they open up to having switches that go beyond being a remote control in a non standard shape stuck to a wall then you'd be mad to put something that's designed for retrofit by a novice into a proper new build.

So if you use neutrals at the light switches make sure the back boxes have plenty of space to add the inline switches and dimmers.

Good advice, thanks for that. Totally agree theres no substitute for proper switches and Hue isn't there right now. Actually a bit surprised that it was relatively quick to research and figure out what the best options are for my setup, way more straightforward than they were a few years back. Am sure there'll be plenty of hours to put in to figure out what the best components (e.g. will now look at Fabaro) are for each scenario, but good to have a high-level understanding of the key concepts at this point.

FrankGrimes

bk wrote: »

Very easy. Get a Network Attached Storage (NAS) device that is powerful enough to run Plex Media Server and then use client devices on your TV's that run Plex Media Client (e.g. FireTV, Nvidia Shield TV, Playstation 4, etc.)

Alternatively for a cheaper option you can use a Nvidia Shield TV as both a server and client with just a big external HDD attached to it or using a cheaper lower power NAS running over the network.

What type of NAS would you suggest? Want to make sure that it's expandable for extra storage in future. That said, a lot of TV we watch is IP-based with smart client boxes around the house and that'll only increase in future. So wasn't quite sure about the emphasis some place on routing HDMI around the house, perhaps over cat6. Is it more a case of it's best to have options so run in extra cat6 to where distributing HDMI may be a useful option?

Also saw your post about running cat6 for adding access points in every room, very interesting. I was thinking of going for one of the new wireless mesh setups but would access points be best way to go? I want fast wifi with no blackspots and also want to set it uo for coverage in the garden and in a shes that'll have a gym room in it. If access points aren't hugely expensive, aren't too tricky to setup (reasonably techie but don't want to lose too many orecious hours) and gives best performance, I'll go for that particularly if I can design in ways to ensure they're discretely positioned out of sight.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

What type of NAS would you suggest? Want to make sure that it's expandable for extra storage in future. That said, a lot of TV we watch is IP-based with smart client boxes around the house and that'll only increase in future. So wasn't quite sure about the emphasis some place on routing HDMI around the house, perhaps over cat6. Is it more a case of it's best to have options so run in extra cat6 to where distributing HDMI may be a useful option?

There are so many options for NAS's out there, it is hard to recommend without knowing your requirements.

For instance I've a QNAP T420, it is a 4 drive RAID array NAS, with 4 x 2TB HDD in RAID 5. It is pretty good, but an old NAS now and not powerful enough to run Plex server itself, instead I run Plex server on a mac mini and jsut store the video on the NAS.

This is the modern version of my NAS that I've had my eye on to upgrade to:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/QNAP-TS-453A-4G-Bay-NAS-Enclosure/dp/B017UKCHVM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1485993345&sr=8-1&keywords=qnap+nas

It is basically a PC in it's own right with 4 or 8GB of RAM and an Intel CPU, so plenty of power to run Plex. But expensive too. Note it also comes in 6 and 8 drive models for future expansion.

But I agree with you that I'm increasingly streaming, so I've held off on upgrading it for that reason, for now any way.

Yes, I'd run cat6 to give me options. Yes I'm doing more streaming nowadays with clients devices too. But streaming still isn't great for distributing, for instance no way can it handle Bluray from a PS3/4, it isn't great for streaming video from a satellite box (possible but I don't find it great), etc.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Also saw your post about running cat6 for adding access points in every room, very interesting. I was thinking of going for one of the new wireless mesh setups but would access points be best way to go? I want fast wifi with no blackspots and also want to set it uo for coverage in the garden and in a shes that'll have a gym room in it. If access points aren't hugely expensive, aren't too tricky to setup (reasonably techie but don't want to lose too many orecious hours) and gives best performance, I'll go for that particularly if I can design in ways to ensure they're discretely positioned out of sight.

Wireless access points over cat6 would definitely be the best way to go. Actually some of those new wireless mesh networks actually also support cat6 backhaul where available (Google Wifi, Eero) and when you use them with cat6 backhaul they get vastly better performance then when using wireless as backhaul.

This makes sense, because cat6 has vastly more bandwidth available then wifi does.

These wireless mesh networks are only a poor substitute for people who can't run cat6 and have no other way of getting better coverage. Using wireless backhaul, they are very much a less ditch attempt to get coverage, not the first thing to try.

Don't get me wrong, it is very good that these options are now available, but people shouldn't buy into the marketing. They aren't magic.

This is what people should do to improve wifi in order of preference:

1) A high quality 802.11ac router placed in a good location (center of house, up high). This solves 90% of peoples wifi problems in typical Irish homes.

2) Wireless Access Points hanging off cat5e/6. I'd recommend Ubiquiti WAP's.

Google Home and Eero using cat6 backhaul might be an easier to set up consumer option when they finally come available in Europe, at the moment it would be illegal to import and use them.

3) If you can't run cat6 then Netgear Orbi.

It is expensive and only consists of two units, but it gives way better performance then any of the other wireless mesh options, as it uses far more wireless backhaul. Also unlike the other options it is actually available in Ireland.

Even though it only has two units, it actually solves the problem most people have. That their modem is behind the TV or other external wall, which is typically a bad position for wifi routers. With the Orbi setup the idea is that you put one unit next to your modem and then the other unit in the center of your home and it uses lots of wireless backhaul to bridge the gap. It is a decent solution for people who definitely can't run cat6.

FrankGrimes

Brilliant advice bk, will definitely go for wireless access points on that basis. The ubiquit APs actually look quite discrete so not eye sores. One of the reviews mentioned POE - does that mean the Aps can be powered over ethernet and so no plug is required? Very, very handy if so as you just pick a spot on a wall and run in a cat6 and you're done (sounds like you need a POE-enabled switch so that it's sending power over those lines to those devices)? Guessing in most rooms location of the AP won't matter too much as it should easily cover the room unless it's significantly obstructed?
 
There seems to be 3 types of AP on Amazon - this consumer unit, this pro unit, and this long range unit. I see them as a great long-term investment, so getting a good few around the house would be worthwhile, but what's the best option for future-proofing?
 
Thanks for the NAS suggestion also - when you consider how many cheap backbone PCs there are out there, most NAS systems do seem overpriced but if they make the RAID configuration easy and are set-and-forget, I can see the value.
 

Came across the attached image of startup smart home companies on LinkedIn (not sure I'd include Sonos in a startup list though), so thought I'd share it summarises the type of devices well and may be worth keeping an eye on how some of the offerings from these companies turn out. Wonder if there's a similar type of summary graphic for established options, would be very helpful if so.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Brilliant advice bk, will definitely go for wireless access points on that basis. The ubiquit APs actually look quite discrete so not eye sores. One of the reviews mentioned POE - does that mean the Aps can be powered over ethernet and so no plug is required? Very, very handy if so as you just pick a spot on a wall and run in a cat6 and you're done (sounds like you need a POE-enabled switch so that it's sending power over those lines to those devices)? Guessing in most rooms location of the AP won't matter too much as it should easily cover the room unless it's significantly obstructed?
 
There seems to be 3 types of AP on Amazon - this consumer unit, this pro unit, and this long range unit. I see them as a great long-term investment, so getting a good few around the house would be worthwhile, but what's the best option for future-proofing?

Yes, the Ubiquiti AP's are powered over ethernet. They actually come with a POE adaptor in the box, so no you don't need to buy a POE switch. Though if you eventually get multiple AP's then it would be neater to use a POE switch then multiple adaptors obviously.

The first one is 802.11n only. The second two are 802.11ac. I'd go with the Pro one, it supports the highest speeds.

FrankGrimes

Forgot to attach that image of smart home startups, have attached now, but have forgotten how to include an image inline.
I'll go for those pro Ubiquiti APs so, from reviews they seem excellent. Even better they can be run outdoors (with adequate shelter). I'll get one for the garden and the shed. House, if we get planning, would be 170sqm all roughly 20m long floor, with one upstairs room. Wonder would it need one AP upstairs, one in the bedroom area, one in the living area, or better to go overkill and put 4 into the house?
Had a look at Fibaro, looks like it's a full system with its own controller. What's the pros/cons of that controller vs something general like Wink 2 hub? Will look into it further, hopefull you can control Fibaro lights with another controller? Interesting Fibaro don't require neutrals to the light switches, though I'll have those run anyway.

BoardsMember

Just reading about Devolo as a provider of some home control products, and it is z-wave based. Rather than buying a devolo controller, I'm now starting to look at getting a "generic" one. This article might be useful to people: http://buildyoursmarthome.co/reviews/best-z-wave-controller/ It looks like the Samsung Smarthings is the one to go for, and would work with almost anything I might be considering.

Has anyone come across Devolo.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

I'll go for those pro Ubiquiti APs so, from reviews they seem excellent. Even better they can be run outdoors (with adequate shelter). I'll get one for the garden and the shed. House, if we get planning, would be 170sqm all roughly 20m long floor, with one upstairs room. Wonder would it need one AP upstairs, one in the bedroom area, one in the living area, or better to go overkill and put 4 into the house?

I'd put the cat6 drops in place, but only buy one or two AP's to start with and see how that goes. You can add more then easily if you find you need it.

jimmy_t

KNX have launched a product aimed at the domestic market so this could be a whole house solution that wasnt cost effective before:



https://www.knx.org/knx-en/Landing-Pages/ETS-Inside/index.php

Hopefully somebody with more knowledge than me could provide better insight but looking at it quickly it looks like it has potential and maybe a better solution than something like loxone?

FrankGrimes

So I've been continuing to research things and am now at the point where I'd like to select the controller I'll go with as one of the tips I read was to acquire it ahead of time to do some playing around and testing with. I reckon we'll end up with a large number of devices and I'm now leaning towards going with the Homeseer Hometroller as it seems to be one of the most powerful controllers out there (from my albeit brief reading).


I was planning to have a NAS running for serving media and possibly for recording from IP cameras. Would it make more sense to just get a PC (I have one I won't be using any more) and install Hometroller on it and get a z-wave USB dongle? Could this take care of everything or is it simplest to just split it out and have a dedicated HA device to avoid any potential overheating issues/power on/off issues with having a PC running 24/7?

FrankGrimes

 Have also seen LED strip lights used in many recent builds and am intrigued about the possibility of using them indoors and outdoors. There's so many options of LED strips and ways of controlling them out there, it's hard to narrow it down. Should I go 24V or 12V? Which type are proven to be reliable outdoors for garden and driveway use (some of those claiming to be waterproof look quite flimsy)? I'm more likely to use shades of white, or very whitened colours, so is RGBW best option and does that have any implications for wiring/controller, or no different?
 
I've seen the Fibaro RGB controller and it looks like it works well for strip lighting smart control. Can you wire several strips into the one Fibaro controller, so all strips in one room that you want to come on/off at the same time (e.g. say all under-cabinet lights and a bookshelf in the kitchen)? Could see it getting pricey if individual controllers are needed. Have been browsing YouTube here and there for videos on strip lighting - there's any amount of them, so if anyone has a link to a guide you found quite informative, that'd be much appreciated.

eddiem74

FrankGrimes wrote: »

 Have also seen LED strip lights used in many recent builds and am intrigued about the possibility of using them indoors and outdoors. There's so many options of LED strips and ways of controlling them out there, it's hard to narrow it down. Should I go 24V or 12V? Which type are proven to be reliable outdoors for garden and driveway use (some of those claiming to be waterproof look quite flimsy)? I'm more likely to use shades of white, or very whitened colours, so is RGBW best option and does that have any implications for wiring/controller, or no different?
 
I've seen the Fibaro RGB controller and it looks like it works well for strip lighting smart control. Can you wire several strips into the one Fibaro controller, so all strips in one room that you want to come on/off at the same time (e.g. say all under-cabinet lights and a bookshelf in the kitchen)? Could see it getting pricey if individual controllers are needed. Have been browsing YouTube here and there for videos on strip lighting - there's any amount of them, so if anyone has a link to a guide you found quite informative, that'd be much appreciated.

I am using a Fibaro RGBW module in our main living room running 2 x 5M Led strip lights around the ceiling with a 150W Led driver.

From memory think it is these:

https://www.hiline-lighting.co.uk/gb/rgbw-led-strips/172-rgbw-led-strip-rgbww-30-24v-ip00-5060440710957.html

https://www.hiline-lighting.co.uk/gb/home/121-mains-dimmable-led-driver-24v-150w-ip20-5060440710421.html

Example from YouTube: https://youtu.be/HPSF2_yIOBQ

FrankGrimes

So I've been continuing the research as we work through the planning process. One question I have is can you extend a z-wave network regardless of what controller you are using? I want to ensure we have flawless coverage for z-wave all through what will be quite a long house. I know Homeseer have a Z-NET device that you can connect via ethernet and it'll extend the range of the z-wave network.

For the likes of parts of the house remote from the home controller, and the garden, driveway, and shed (all of which I have automation plans for), can you run ethernet cable and add a device (e.g. USB over ethernet) to extend the same z-wave network (rather than creating a 2nd network), or is that limited based on what controller you go for?

FrankGrimes

And on the LED strips topic, I spoke to a relative who is an electrician. He confirmed general approach is to go with LED drivers that are wired into the mains (rather than the ones which need a plug, which he described as more DIY-type).

And either way, you find where you want to put the driver in a place that can be concealed and then run electrical cable to the point where you want to bring it out of the wall, and then use more cable to join between any breaks you want to make in the strips of LED (e.g. different shelves). If you're going with a switch (rather than purely automated), another cable for that.

He also said one approach is to run standard mains cable back to the fuseboard and put the LED driver and dimmer module there so you have easy access to it, and it can then be split out at the far end and soldered to the LED strip where you need it. Has the advantage that should there be an issue and you need to move the driver or dimmer to the destination room at any point, you can do that and connect the mains cable directly to the fuseboard and to the driver at the other end.

Big advantage of this approach of putting the drivers and dimmer modules at the fuseboard location is you don't need to know exactly where you want to put every single LED strip when doing the first fix of cabling (if you were putting drivers and dimmers in the destination room, you'd need to know where you'd be hiding them. So just run the cable back to the fuseboard to, say, roughly the bath area, and then later when doing the tiling you can figure where exactly to bring the cable out from behind the tiles. So it gives a lot more flexibility and less need to plan every detail in advance. Should be particularly useful for the garden lights, just run plenty of cable back to the fuseboard and figure out how to use it later.

As I hadn't heard this approach before, I wanted to share it in case it's helpful for others and also to see if people have experiences with it and can confirm the pros and cons.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

So I've been continuing the research as we work through the planning process. One question I have is can you extend a z-wave network regardless of what controller you are using? I want to ensure we have flawless coverage for z-wave all through what will be quite a long house. I know Homeseer have a Z-NET device that you can connect via ethernet and it'll extend the range of the z-wave network.

Interestingly Samsung have announced another one of those wireless * mesh wifi systems. But what is interesting and unique about this one, is that each one will also act as a smarthings hub and repeater.

That should give you excellent z-wave coverage if you are willing to use smarthings system.

No idea when it will hit Europe.

* As always I recommend using ethernet for backhaul for these devices, instead of wifi backhaul which is just terrible.

FrankGrimes

Interesting. I was just about to buy a couple of Ubiquity APs so I could get them setup etc and gain the benefit of eliminating dead spots in my current house and then take them with me to the new house. But if the Samsung one maya be the way to go as they give me zwave extension, I'd hold off.

But is a zwave extender necessary inside the house as I'll have minimum one zwave device in every room and as they are each supposed to repeat the network should I have good coverage anyway?

But are there other ways of extending a zwave network to remote locations like sheds (over ethernet) that are not in an AP/hub?

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

But is a zwave extender necessary inside the house as I'll have minimum one zwave device in every room and as they are each supposed to repeat the network should I have good coverage anyway?

Yes, Zwave is a wireless mesh technology, which means each devices naturally acts as a repeater for the next device along (unlike wifi). So if you have one in each room, then you are unlikely to need more.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

But are there other ways of extending a zwave network to remote locations like sheds (over ethernet) that are not in an AP/hub?

Yes dedicated Zwave repeaters exist, e.g.

http://aeotec.com/z-wave-repeater

In most cases they shouldn't be needed, but in the case like a shed, they could help reach it as they have slightly more powerful antenna.

BTW The Ubiquiti WAPs are excellent, while it is perhaps unfair to judge them before it is released, I doubt a cheap samsung consumer device would come anywhere close to the performance of the Ubiquiti's.

bk

More here:
http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/29/samsungs-new-router-built-smartthings-hub-supports-mesh-networking/

Roen

Only Zwave devices that are mains powered act as repeaters. Battery powered ones don't pass along anything.
If battery powered ones passed signal for others you could potentially end up in a situation where a few devices were relayed through one device.
You'd end up replacing the battery on that device frequently and losing contact with them all when your battery did run out.

From the zwave site

"Z-Wave is based on a mesh network topology. This means each (non-battery) device installed in the network becomes a signal repeater."

That said in a new build I assume you have the opportunity to wire in a few into sockets and light switches so you should be golden!

FrankGrimes

Thanks. I will likely have plenty of hardwired zwave devices so coveragein the house should be fine. I'll go ahead with the Ubiquity APs as I want best quality wifi coverage.

Will keep looking for info on how to best bridge to the shed. I'm not keen on the Homeseer UI but its znet extender would suit this scenario well and I also want a hub that is powerful but can run locally without internet if needed, so may reluctantly end up going that route if I don't find better ideas for extending the network to the shed.

FrankGrimes

So far, the zwave light switches I've come across are generally quite plasticy and relatively bulky looking. Any options people would recommend that look nice and are slimline ( e.g. Metal finishes or does that affect signal)?

Want all lights to be dimmable, probably all LED, finding it bit tricky to figure out what parts are for new buildsvs retrofit and what do I need for each light, is it just a relay behind the switch or anything needed at the light fitting?

Plasticy looking switches would be a deal breaker for me so I'll consider other protocols including other wireless options or even those requiring cabling if that were to be the only way to get the slick finish I want

eddiem74

FrankGrimes wrote: »

So far, the zwave light switches I've come across are generally quite plasticy and relatively bulky looking. Any options people would recommend that look nice and are slimline ( e.g. Metal finishes or does that affect signal)?

Want all lights to be dimmable, probably all LED, finding it bit tricky to figure out what parts are for new buildsvs retrofit and what do I need for each light, is it just a relay behind the switch or anything needed at the light fitting?

Plasticy looking switches would be a deal breaker for me so I'll consider other protocols including other wireless options or even those requiring cabling if that were to be the only way to get the slick finish I want

I use these: https://www.varilight.co.uk/ranges/powergrid-range.php

Deep back box with z-wave module behind switch.

wexfordman2

eddiem74 wrote: »

I use these: https://www.varilight.co.uk/ranges/powergrid-range.php

Deep back box with z-wave module behind switch.

Other option alos is click minigrid, see here for info

http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?3376-Uk-style-momentary-wall-switches!/page2

No affiliation, just a customer.

FrankGrimes

wexfordman2 wrote: »

eddiem74 wrote: »

I use these: https://www.varilight.co.uk/ranges/powergrid-range.php

Deep back box with z-wave module behind switch.

Other option alos is click minigrid, see here for info

http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?3376-Uk-style-momentary-wall-switches!/page2

No affiliation, just a customer.

Thanks, these and the Varilight ones posted above look good. Why did you use retractive switches? Is it so they can be stateless and not be effected by changes you make using logic at the hub (eg. Off a certain time after button is pressed) so they are back to square one awaiting the next command?

What modules would you recommend for inside the back box behind those switches?

corcadorcha

Anybody know do the metal deep boxes for light switches work with zwave off do they have to be plastic?
I have spoken to two Electritians and they both recommend metal boxes. No problem with 35-45 mmdeep boxes once they are metal. I'm not sure what the issue is with plastic boxes.
But, my question is it ok to put in metal boxes in which zwave ( for example, fibaro dimmer) will be put behind switch.
Thanks.

Wossack

good question - especially if you then put a metal faceplate on as well

quick google, and there is a chap running ~10 fibaro dimmers in metal backboxes & faceplates, and brick walls and all well (search for user markst1 link) though he does say early days for him.

If you do have signal issues, I'd say be easy enough to swap into plastic boxes if needed, or perhaps even shallower metal boxes (so 20mm boxes, in a 50mm recess) and just use longer screws for the faceplate. Not sure how up to regs that would be however..

Stoner

corcadorcha wrote: »

Anybody know do the metal deep boxes for light switches work with zwave off do they have to be plastic?
I have spoken to two Electritians and they both recommend metal boxes. No problem with 35-45 mmdeep boxes once they are metal. I'm not sure what the issue is with plastic boxes.
But, my question is it ok to put in metal boxes in which zwave ( for example, fibaro dimmer) will be put behind switch.
Thanks.

the fibaro dimmer has no earth connection that i can see. However the metal box has advantages and from a purely wiring point of view the box should be metal and earthed, the screws make a connection to the box to offer an earthing connection to a metal faceplate

Gimme Stitches

What are the advantages of starting a new build with regard to home automation as opposed to an existing build?
Is it the ability to run CAT6 and general wiring?
Just started looking into home automation, there are several companies who provide home automation services. But have read this thread it doesn't look as daunting as I first imagined. For example what does Control 4 offer over having a Logitec Harmony and Echo?
I would like to achieve smart audio, tv,lighting and heating. Will leave the security element as something to follow.
Is it possible to have "server room" with all my tech (sat box, apple tv, amp, ps4, nas) feeding 2 or 3 tv's around the house?
Is it possible to have lights come when I am within a certain distance from the house and it is dark?

Apologies for all the questions, any help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

Caillte

Gimme Stitches wrote: »

For example what does Control 4 offer over having a Logitec Harmony and Echo?

Not a whole lot i'd imagine. The beauty with off the shelf stuff is that is can be taken out and upgraded, moved and do what ever you like. They are also connecting the various systems together with the likes of Homey, SmartThings etc. So Its really easy to do yourself. You can get all you want very easily and it is very flexible.

As for the server room im not really sure how you'd go about getting the info from your systems to the tv's around the house but I use a plex server and chrome cast to do that with my media. I think its handy to have the PS4 at the tv as its easy enough to swap out discs etc.

corcadorcha

I would love to have a guide as what to send to switches. Neutral wire and/or cat6 to switch. To future proof?
Hard to tie down what best to do.
I cannot afford to put much in now. Other half insisting money needs to be spent on the building 😎 first.
But even reading these treads its hard to figure what the minimum wiring I should put in for 1) lighting, 2) heating, 3) audio, 4) distributing video.

The choices out there.

But I would lover to try to future proof as much as possible.

Any advice would be great.
Thanks.