Stay away from Toyota Corolla d4d diesel

Excorrolla

Hey folks just to warn people about 2011 Toyota Corolla diesel d4d. They have a problem once you go above 130000k where some gears can no longer be engaged. To fix the issue the gearbox needs to be removed which is going to cost you north of 1000 euros..Toyota customer support will not admit a fault and you are left to carry the cost. They will use excuse car is out of warranty ..note newer models may be affected also as Toyota seem to be in denial problem exists...be warned...ask around some independent garages and you will find this is becoming a known problem.. any prospective buyer of Corolla take note and stay away

JohnBoy26

road_high

Had one on loan for a day this year even my beautiful Mazda 6 was in the garage...so you needn't warm me anyhow- the drive and quality of this car was bad enough to put me off!
New car but seriously underpowered (foot to floor and nothing much happens). The interior is also very very low rent. Taken on its merits I can't understand how these are still best sellers. The styling is actually not too bad but the car itself is not good...

JohnBoy26

road_high wrote: »

Had one on loan for a day this year even my beautiful Mazda 6 was in the garage...so you needn't warm me anyhow- the drive and quality of this car was bad enough to put me off!
New car but seriously underpowered (foot to floor and nothing much happens). The interior is also very very low rent. Taken on its merits I can't understand how these are still best sellers. The styling is actually not too bad but the car itself is not good...

They are the most reliable diesel of the lot and they actually are a good car if you take them on their merits. They provide hassle free low cost motoring with good reliability and build quality.

In years to come when your beautiful mazda has turned to rust or is scrapped when the engine goes bang there will still be plenty of these around still going and rust free.

road_high

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

They are the most reliable diesel of the lot and they actually are a good car if you take them on their merits. They provide hassle free low cost motoring with good reliability and build quality.

In years to come when your beautiful mazda has turned to rust or is scrapped when the engine goes bang there will still be plenty of these around still going and rust free.

Ha ha like for like basis current Mazda range are leagues ahead of these, I buy new so it's the here and now I'm interested in, and going by the current build quality I wouldn't be so sure. The old corollas were decent, these are 2nd rate crap. And they feel and drive the same. It was one of the worst cars I'd driven in a long time, the engine is gutless.
I actually quite like the styling and with a decent engine, interior improvements (the "entertainment" system was like a step back in time!) it mightn't be a bad car but I couldn't live with either on a daily basis with motorway driving.

selectamatic

This will forever crop up from time to time on boards where some random base spec Toyota is compared with something many spec levels above and in some cases a few car classes above.

In this instance a probably well spec'd Mazda 6 is being compared to I'm assuming a base spec rental corolla, it's laughable that this can be seen by some as a logical discussion.

I got in a heated debate before on here as to why a 2.0d4d avensis was not built to be in direct competition with a 320d and some just couldn't understand that concept (or were unwilling to).

Most Toyota's are in direct competition with the korean brands and the equivalent base spec German marques and they perform admirably at this level and resale values attest to this.

Cars from the upper echelons of the €40-50k bracket are a very different proposition to ones which are priced around the €30k mark or indeed a great deal lower.

@Op what was the gearbox fault, Bearings? Flywheel? Clutch?

JohnBoy26

road_high wrote: »

Ha ha like for like basis current Mazda range are leagues ahead of these, I buy new so it's the here and now I'm interested in, and going by the current build quality I wouldn't be so sure. The old corollas were decent, these are 2nd rate crap. And they feel and drive the same. It was one of the worst cars I'd driven in a long time, the engine is gutless.
I actually quite like the styling and with a decent engine, interior improvements (the "entertainment" system was like a step back in time!) it mightn't be a bad car but I couldn't live with either on a daily basis with motorway driving.

They aren't actually. If you are comparing like for like you will be comparing this car to a mazda 3 which has a diesel engine with questionable reliablility. Mazda have also been very prone to rust due to the use of sh1te quality metal.

Ferrari3600

Diesels...hmmm.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

bazz26

I like cake.

askU

Excorrolla wrote: »

Hey folks just to warn people about 2011 Toyota Corolla diesel d4d. They have a problem once you go above 130000k where some gears can no longer be engaged. To fix the issue the gearbox needs to be removed which is going to cost you north of 1000 euros..Toyota customer support will not admit a fault and you are left to carry the cost. They will use excuse car is out of warranty ..note newer models may be affected also as Toyota seem to be in denial problem exists...be warned...ask around some independent garages and you will find this is becoming a known problem.. any prospective buyer of Corolla take note and stay away

Please state engine size that the issue

bazz26

They only sell one size diesel engine in the Corolla ~ 1.4

166man

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

They are the most reliable diesel of the lot and they actually are a good car if you take them on their merits. They provide hassle free low cost motoring with good reliability and build quality.

In years to come when your beautiful mazda has turned to rust or is scrapped when the engine goes bang there will still be plenty of these around still going and rust free.

Have you any proof that they're the most reliable Diesel of the lot or is that just the usual "country spec" rubbish that you spout every time someone mentions Toyotas and their unreliability?

Toyota once made excellent cars, now their cars are so low rent the quality is long gone.Arent they now using the BMW timing chain engine in their diesels?

Get real here, the competition has caught up with Toyota and many have surpassed them. You can do far better for your money now than a Corolla or Avensis.

Excorrolla

selectamatic wrote: »

This will forever crop up from time to time on boards where some random base spec Toyota is compared with something many spec levels above and in some cases a few car classes above.

In this instance a probably well spec'd Mazda 6 is being compared to I'm assuming a base spec rental corolla, it's laughable that this can be seen by some as a logical discussion.

I got in a heated debate before on here as to why a 2.0d4d avensis was not built to be in direct competition with a 320d and some just couldn't understand that concept (or were unwilling to).

Most Toyota's are in direct competition with the korean brands and the equivalent base spec German marques and they perform admirably at this level and resale values attest to this.

Cars from the upper echelons of the €40-50k bracket are a very different proposition to ones which are priced around the €30k mark or indeed a great deal lower.

@Op what was the gearbox fault, Bearings? Flywheel? Clutch?

Not sure what exact part but when you select gear it does not slot into place..talking with one of the independent mechanics he informed me the component is a weak metal so it is just a matter of the mileage before it breaks...seemingly Toyota outsourced the manufacture of the particular part to a polish factory...the problem is only starting to show now as cars reaching the mileage...Toyota deny existence of problem and will not do a recall as not a safety issue

colm_mcm

166man wrote: »

Have you any proof that they're the most reliable Diesel of the lot or is that just the usual "country spec" rubbish that you spout every time someone mentions Toyotas and their unreliability?

Toyota once made excellent cars, now their cars are so low rent the quality is long gone.Arent they now using the BMW timing chain engine in their diesels?

Get real here, the competition has caught up with Toyota and many have surpassed them. You can do far better for your money now than a Corolla or Avensis.

Toyotas 'quality' was never in nice interior plastics (which as we all know is the measure of a good car nowadays!) The 1.4 D-4D is out 15 years now and it is a very reliable and refined (even nowadays) engine.
I sold a heap of them back in the day new and used and they weren't giving trouble.

They are using BMW engines alright in some models but still do the 1.4 as well. The criticism you could make of it is that at89bhp it can't really compete with rival 1.6 engines.

JohnBoy26

colm_mcm wrote: »

Toyotas 'quality' was never in nice interior plastics (which as we all know is the measure of a good car nowadays!) The 1.4 D-4D is out 15 years now and it is a very reliable and refined (even nowadays) engine.
I sold a heap of them back in the day new and used and they weren't giving trouble.

They are using BMW engines alright in some models but still do the 1.4 as well. The criticism you could make of it is that at89bhp it can't really compete with rival 1.6 engines.

The corolla never got the bmw engine, at least not in this country anyway. All it's engines are toyota's own.

bazz26

The 1.4 diesel engine is going to be phased out as it will not meet tighter Euro emissions afaik. I'd say it will be gone in the next 2 years when the Corolla is replaced with a new model. Hard to know what they are going to replace it with in the Corolla if not the 1.6 from BMW as I read Toyota are now moving away from building diesel engines and focusing on petrol and hybrids only in passenger cars. Corolla is built in Turkey but only sold in a small number of EU countries so cannot see them justified in engineering a hybrid version. 1.6 BMW diesel engine is already available in the current Auris in the UK too.

road_high

I read that too. I guess the new CHR is the direction Toyota are headed which is certainly better than the likes of the (ancient) Avensis and Auris offer.
I can't believe the Avensis is still so popular. 15-20 years ago they were a great car but they've been roundly lapped by almost everything in that class. It's quite surprising for a mighty company like Toyota to almost abandon a model like this but it appears what they're doing. They'll surely drop it in a couple of years, there's no way they can keep rehashing it like this.

road_high

selectamatic wrote: »

This will forever crop up from time to time on boards where some random base spec Toyota is compared with something many spec levels above and in some cases a few car classes above.

In this instance a probably well spec'd Mazda 6 is being compared to I'm assuming a base spec rental corolla, it's laughable that this can be seen by some as a logical discussion.

I got in a heated debate before on here as to why a 2.0d4d avensis was not built to be in direct competition with a 320d and some just couldn't understand that concept (or were unwilling to).

Most Toyota's are in direct competition with the korean brands and the equivalent base spec German marques and they perform admirably at this level and resale values attest to this.

Cars from the upper echelons of the €40-50k bracket are a very different proposition to ones which are priced around the €30k mark or indeed a great deal lower.

@Op what was the gearbox fault, Bearings? Flywheel? Clutch?

Of course I didn't expect it to be comparable exactly to a Mazda 6, I know the Avensis is the comparable model- the point I should have made was that I didnt expect the Corollla to be SO bad!
I've driven Golfs, Astras and Focus too the past number of years and they were a good bit better in quality, drive and overall feel.
It's a few months back now but the entertainment system was really very basic- stick your phone and it plays but no options of playlists, songs etc. I'd expect a bit better from a €23k car.

selectamatic

I dunno really lapped by what exactly?

For the 2008/9 influx of new saloons there were:
Insignias that had horrendous reliability
Timing chain eating Bmw's
2.2 accords with patchy engine reliability
1.8 tdci Mondeos with a ridiculous timing belt setup (2.0 tdci is supposedly a lot better)
Renault, Citroen and Peugeot were on the cusp of getting their act together after the woeful display of reliability in the early to mid noughties
Kia + Hyundai were churning out saloons with clutch/flywheels made out of cheese.
Passat and Audi oilpumps left a lot to be desired
Mazda 6 diesels with the worst reliability of all except for perhaps the glorious revelation that was the legacy boxer diesel.

The avensis had some patchy handbrake reliability (a complaint associated with many of the above cars but they had bigger issues)
And an on going issue with door pillar cracks which Toyota are working to fix via good will.

Recall history is generally top notch and problems aren't normally swept under the carpet like they are in Germany so I don't really know what qualifies as getting lapped by the competition but it's certainly not the above.

Perhaps it boils down to whatever is written by the British motoring media

Sales are falling now and hence we see no replacement in the pipeline but the saloon car as a whole is on a downward spiral unless it's in the executive 40-50k class I mentioned earlier. The future is hybrid mpv's hatchbacks and crossovers.

road_high

I think you're being rather selective in your commentary and timing there. The Avensis was competitive in 2009 when it came out but the point is that it's barely moved on in that 8 years, the competition has raced ahead of that model. It's fallen way down the charts since then, while others have risen. The French for example have really gotten their act together in that time.
There's so much more to a car than reliability which is of course very important and has improved markedly the past decade or so in all cars, diminishing Toyotas once trump card. Exposing some of their range for what they are- over priced, under specced and lacking in quality.

Stealthfins

Im an owner of one of those Toyota's and onto my third reconditioned gear box.

Isn't it amazing when there's a small fault they'll recall every car to replace a nut somewhere that doesn't really matter.

Then when a gear box goes frequently they'll say it's wear and tare or you might not be changing the gears properly.

They definitely made bad gear boxes on that model, my latest reconditioned gear box has more stronger bearings than the originals in it,got it rebuilt in Limerick.

So hopefully they'll last longer than another 130,000 km

Yeah they definitely should be recalling those car's which had the soft gearboxes,mine went when doing 100kph on the dual carriageway.

It sounded like spanner's thrown into a wood chipper..... Scared the life out of me...

JohnBoy26

road_high wrote: »

I think you're being rather selective in your commentary and timing there. The Avensis was competitive in 2009 when it came out but the point is that it's barely moved on in that 8 years, the competition has raced ahead of that model. It's fallen way down the charts since then, while others have risen. The French for example have really gotten their act together in that time.
There's so much more to a car than reliability which is of course very important and has improved markedly the past decade or so in all cars, diminishing Toyotas once trump card. Exposing some of their range for what they are- over priced, under specced and lacking in quality.

You obviously haven't been in the facelift avensis

JohnBoy26

Stealthfins wrote: »

Im an owner of one of those Toyota's and onto my third reconditioned gear box.

Isn't it amazing when there's a small fault they'll recall every car to replace a nut somewhere that doesn't really matter.

Then when a gear box goes frequently they'll say it's wear and tare or you might not be changing the gears properly.

They definitely made bad gear boxes on that model, my latest reconditioned gear box has more stronger bearings than the originals in it,got it rebuilt in Limerick.

So hopefully they'll last longer than another 130,000 km

Yeah they definitely should be recalling those car's which had the soft gearboxes,mine went when doing 100kph on the dual carriageway.

It sounded like spanner's thrown into a wood chipper..... Scared the life out of me...

If the gearbox is properly reconditioned the bearings should only have to be done once.

colm_mcm

Stealthfins wrote: »

Im an owner of one of those Toyota's and onto my third reconditioned gear box.

Isn't it amazing when there's a small fault they'll recall every car to replace a nut somewhere that doesn't really matter.

Then when a gear box goes frequently they'll say it's wear and tare or you might not be changing the gears properly.

They definitely made bad gear boxes on that model, my latest reconditioned gear box has more stronger bearings than the originals in it,got it rebuilt in Limerick.

So hopefully they'll last longer than another 130,000 km

Yeah they definitely should be recalling those car's which had the soft gearboxes,mine went when doing 100kph on the dual carriageway.

It sounded like spanner's thrown into a wood chipper..... Scared the life out of me...

Is yours 5 speed or 6 speed?

Stealthfins

JohnBoy26 wrote:

If the gearbox is properly reconditioned the bearings should only have to be done once.

Thanks, I think the guys who did it first weren't reliable.

So hopefully this time round the box will be fine.

I'm useless with car's and anything mechanical.

Stealthfins

colm_mcm wrote:

Is yours 5 speed or 6 speed?

5 speed I think the fourth gear is usually the dodgy one.

Traynors in the North are supposed to be the best at reconditioned boxes.

My mechanic got mine done by someone in Limerick who is something of an auto engineer who's more technical than a mechanic.

bazz26

road_high wrote: »

I read that too. I guess the new CHR is the direction Toyota are headed which is certainly better than the likes of the (ancient) Avensis and Auris offer.
I can't believe the Avensis is still so popular. 15-20 years ago they were a great car but they've been roundly lapped by almost everything in that class. It's quite surprising for a mighty company like Toyota to almost abandon a model like this but it appears what they're doing. They'll surely drop it in a couple of years, there's no way they can keep rehashing it like this.

The Avensis is no longer the popular large family car in Ireland that it once enjoyed. Toyota only sold 1,663 Avensis in 2016. VW sold 3,197 Passats and Skoda sold 1,873 Superbs despite both being more expensive than the Avensis and the VW dieselgate fiasco.

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

You obviously haven't been in the facelift avensis

Defendor of the faith to the end.

road_high

It used be in the top 5 in it's heyday. It's falling off the radar and way behind the competition- buyers know what they're looking at and voting with their wallets according, switching over to better and more modern alternatives. Keen pricing and deals are surely keeping at the levels its still at.
The Avensis in 2003 was relative quality and a class leader but things have changed a lot since those days.

selectamatic

road_high wrote: »

It used be in the top 5 in it's heyday. It's falling off the radar and way behind the competition- buyers know what they're looking at and voting with their wallets according, switching over to better and more modern alternatives.

Modern Alternatives such as the prius

road_high

selectamatic wrote: »

Modern Alternatives such as the prius

I'm sure some are. I always figured the Prius was more Corolla class though.

selectamatic

road_high wrote: »

I'm sure some are. I always figured the Prius was more Corolla class though.

True I wanted to offer up a Toyota branded alternative first before suggesting that what you're looking for in an executive style saloon car made by the Toyota group will actually have a Lexus badge. Or is the is300h lagging behind these wonderful competitors too in the quality and technology stakes.

road_high

selectamatic wrote: »

True I wanted to offer up a Toyota branded alternative first before suggesting that what you're looking for in an executive style saloon car made by the Toyota group will actually have a Lexus badge. Or is the is300h lagging behind these wonderful competitors too in the quality and technology stakes.

You raise an interesting point. No I actually think Lexus are fantastic, love their unique and classy Japanese style. The SUV thing they have looks great as does the IS range- which is why I can't understand they can't spread a bit of that to the more affordable Avensis- VW can do this with their VW and Audi ranges- why can't Toyota do similar? They're clearly well capable of desirable competent cars.

corks finest

Excorrolla wrote: »

Hey folks just to warn people about 2011 Toyota Corolla diesel d4d. They have a problem once you go above 130000k where some gears can no longer be engaged. To fix the issue the gearbox needs to be removed which is going to cost you north of 1000 euros..Toyota customer support will not admit a fault and you are left to carry the cost. They will use excuse car is out of warranty ..note newer models may be affected also as Toyota seem to be in denial problem exists...be warned...ask around some independent garages and you will find this is becoming a known problem.. any prospective buyer of Corolla take note and stay away

Buy a Honda

selectamatic

@road_high

Because its a flooded market you have basic but reliable and relatively cheap avensis. The middle ground is wedged with base spec Audi's and bmw's and then the upper end of the market is lexus, bmw msport, Audi sline/black edition, jaguar, Mercedes etc.

The thing with the vw group is they are separate brands which now all operate under vw and share a parts base but originally they were their own entity.

Lexus was created by Toyota for toyota. Internationally it could be seen as Toyota's msport or amg division if you will although that's an overly simplistic view point.

Anyways we're straying too far off topic, in relation to the op I'd be interested to know if this gearbox issue is present in a six speed Toyota box mated to the 1.4d4d as I've never heard of any issues with these it's even very rear that an issue occurs with the 5 speed diesel boxes.

The bearing issue some are referring to here generally applied to 5 speed boxes from the mid noughties and generally it was the boxes mated to petrol vvti engines which gave some bother.

JohnBoy26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

If the gearbox is properly reconditioned the bearings should only have to be done once.

If the gearbox was built properly first day with bearings fit for purpose a reconditioning shouldn't be required for 300 k kms + imo.

Interesting how you are quick to point out a substandard re con job while ignoring the actual issue.

Surely you can see many Toyota products (Corolla and Avensis) are essentially cheap ole sh1t that make little sense to most new car buyers compared to the competition.

walus

Are those 1.4 d4d fitted with dual mass flywheel by the factory?

JohnBoy26

Augeo wrote: »

If the gearbox was built properly first day with bearings fit for purpose a reconditioning shouldn't be required for 300 k kms + imo.

Interesting how you are quick to point out a substandard re con job while ignoring the actual issue.

Gearbox bearing failures are more to do with the bearing manufacturer rather than the car manufacturer itself. There was a lot of bearing failures across many brands in cars from the late 90's to the mid 00's.

Some cars from the early to mid 90's with the exact same gearbox as their later counterparts didn't suffer from bearing failures. nissan's sunny and the later almera are an example of this, as is the corolla.

You usually only have to replace the bearings once, that was the point I was trying to make. I've never seen bearings having to be replaced twice or three times, especially over a short period of time. Im not saying it doesn't happen but it isn't the norm.

Augeo wrote: »

Surely you can see many Toyota products (Corolla and Avensis) are essentially cheap ole sh1t that make little sense to most new car buyers compared to the competition.

Well they must make some sense to new car buyers, otherwise Toyota wouldn't be the best selling car brand last year. :cool:

bazz26

walus wrote: »

Are those 1.4 d4d fitted with dual mass flywheel by the factory?

No.

elperello

In 2003 the Avensis was a good car with a good engine.
In 2009 they took away the good car and left the good engine.
In 2015 they took away the good engine and left.....?

JohnBoy26

elperello wrote: »

In 2003 the Avensis was a good car with a good engine.
In 2009 they took away the good car and left the good engine.
In 2015 they took away the good engine and left.....?

What are you on about?

JohnBoy26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Gearbox bearing failures are more to do with the bearing manufacturer rather than the car manufacturer itself. ...............

You can apply that "logic" to most components

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Well they must make some sense to new car buyers, otherwise Toyota wouldn't be the best selling car brand last year. :cool:

Little between Toyota, Hyundai, Ford and Volkswagon
Toyota make sense to some who probably don't think much about it, ole farmers daughters from the arse of Mayo etc :pac:

Dia1988

Which Toyota model sells the most in Ireland?

Is it the Corolla, and is this because of Europecar buying a load of them for rental?

The Rav 4 and Avensis look seriously dated.

The Yaris and Aygo aren't a bad car.

selectamatic

Dia1988 wrote: »

Which Toyota model sells the most in Ireland?

Is it the Corolla, and is this because of Europecar buying a load of them for rental?

Yep corolla.
Yaris up there too.

Toyota have led the hybrid revolution the last few years. They've put forward some outstanding performance orientated cars especially the truly outstanding Lexus LFA.
They're returned to btcc.
Making leaps of progress in NASCAR
And made one of the best mass produced all purpose n/a v6 engines of the last 10 years, the 2grfe.

Quite frankly if almost any other brand had done all of the above lads would be on here raving about it but it's the done thing here to paint Toyota as the antithesis of petrol heads where as nothing could be further from the truth when you look at it from a logical viewpoint and leave childish American style marque loyalty out of it.

Underarmoured

Up toyota best built cars in the world

bazz26

Go home Underarmoured, your drunk.

Even Toyota don't spout that marketing mush anymore.

D Trent

road_high wrote: »

Had one on loan for a day this year even my beautiful Mazda 6 was in the garage...so you needn't warm me anyhow- the drive and quality of this car was bad enough to put me off!
New car but seriously underpowered (foot to floor and nothing much happens). The interior is also very very low rent. Taken on its merits I can't understand how these are still best sellers. The styling is actually not too bad but the car itself is not good...

Well Bill if we take each game on its merits...

selectamatic

selectamatic wrote: »

Yep corolla.
Yaris up there too.

Toyota have led the hybrid revolution the last few years. They've put forward some outstanding performance orientated cars especially the truly outstanding Lexus LFA.
They're returned to btcc.
Making leaps of progress in NASCAR
And made one of the best mass produced all purpose n/a v6 engines of the last 10 years, the 2grfe.

Quite frankly if almost any other brand had done all of the above lads would be on here raving about it but it's the done thing here to paint Toyota as the antithesis of petrol heads where as nothing could be further from the truth when you look at it from a logical viewpoint and leave childish American style marque loyalty out of it.

I reckon you're a farmer :pac:

selectamatic

Augeo wrote: »

I reckon you're a farmer :pac:

Considering the main places I post here are the motoring forum, the farming forum and the boxing forum it didn't take a genius to work that one out.

Having owned cars from 8 different marques (currently in a bmw) and never once blatantly criticised a specific marque on here I'd probably be more impartial than yourself.

However feel free to offer up any educated critique of what I said in my previous post though.

Underarmoured

bazz26 wrote: »

Go home Underarmoured, your drunk.

Even Toyota don't spout that marketing mush anymore.

Well from my experience toyota never gave me any trouble atall. As for newest models i cant comment. My toyota hasnt seen a garage only for a service best car iv had

road_high

selectamatic wrote: »

Yep corolla.
Yaris up there too.

Toyota have led the hybrid revolution the last few years. They've put forward some outstanding performance orientated cars especially the truly outstanding Lexus LFA.
They're returned to btcc.
Making leaps of progress in NASCAR
And made one of the best mass produced all purpose n/a v6 engines of the last 10 years, the 2grfe.

Quite frankly if almost any other brand had done all of the above lads would be on here raving about it but it's the done thing here to paint Toyota as the antithesis of petrol heads where as nothing could be further from the truth when you look at it from a logical viewpoint and leave childish American style marque loyalty out of it.

That's all very well. But the Toyota offering in Ireland is what we are talking about which is pretty poor.
Their core range of Auris, Corolla and Avensis are just not appealing cars and not as good as their class peers. No amount of Hybrid tech etc is going to change this.
Actually the contrary with me, was always a big Toyota fan. We owned numerous models in our family. Want to like them but the current range makes that impossible.
I would buy an Aygo, Land Cruiser or the new CHR as they're class competitive. The rest all have far better alternatives from other marques.