People getting upset about mass cards

Cabaal

I came across this on LiveLine and it sort of strikes me as strange.

Surely it doesn't matter where the priest is or how many hundreds or thousands of mass cards they sign because if he still remembers people when saying mass then surely its no different to a priest in Ireland doing the same?

David Murphy sells mass cards for €4 each. He splits the money with a priest in India who signs them all and ‘remembers’ the beneficiaries in a mass.

http://www.rte.ie/cspodcasts/media.mp3?c1=2&c2=16951747&ns_site=test&ns_type=clickin&rte_vs_ct=aud&rte_vs_sc=pod&rte_mt_sec=radio&rte_vs_sn=radio1&rte_mt_pub_dt=2016-12-20&rte_mt_prg_name=test-liveline&title=Mass%20Cards&c7=http%3A%2F%2Fpodcast.rasset.ie%2Fpodcasts%2Faudio%2F2016%2F1220%2F20161220_rteradio1-liveline-masscards_c21107124_21107128_232_.mp3&r=http%3A%2F%2Fpodcast.rasset.ie%2Fpodcasts%2Faudio%2F2016%2F1220%2F20161220_rteradio1-liveline-masscards_c21107124_21107128_232_.mp3

Personally, I think mass cards in general are a scam. If they are from the local priest or a priest in some random country they are all the same...a money making racket.

Manach

Right ... thanks so much for sharing that unbiased opinion.
Cards are a means to express a sense of shared emotion and communicative emotion - thus in one sense fulfil their function. If the OP is that exercised on the purpose of cards, I take it a #boycotthallmark is next?

El_Duderino 09

Cabaal wrote:

Surely it doesn't matter where the priest is or how many hundreds or thousands of mass cards they sign because if he still remembers people when saying mass then surely its no different to a priest in Ireland doing the same?

Didn't Douglas Adams do a bit about this? A robotic monk who would have faith and do prayers on your behalf. It was famously 'capable of believing things they wouldn't believe in Saltlake city'.

If you're ok with the concept of mass cards, you should be fine if the priest sublets the 'remembering' part to Asia to benefit from the cheaper labour.

eviltwin

What's it cost for a mass card these days?

Rainman16

Mass cards are just another part of the scam, another way to part idiots from their money.

homer911

Manach wrote: »

Cards are a means to express a sense of shared emotion and communicative emotion - thus in one sense fulfil their function.

There is also the implied perspective that in some way the priest is "closer" to God and therefore his intercessionary prayers are more "valuable" than others

Nick Park

I'm not a Catholic, but if people find them helpful then that's their choice. It's not my thing - but perhaps anyone getting upset about it should learn to be more tolerant of others and grow up a bit?

Mancomb Seepgood

I'd agree with Nick on this. I don't really "get" Mass cards, but they do represent something that's important to a lot of people. What is a waste of money to me may be very important to someone else. I didn't catch the segment on Liveline but I'd imagine that people felt that they were paying for a "service" that they didn't feel they were getting (in that the money was split with the person selling the card and the Mass was outsourced to India). A consumer related gripe - not at all unusual for Liveline.

Mrs OBumble

homer911 wrote: »

There is also the implied perspective that in some way the priest is "closer" to God and therefore his intercessionary prayers are more "valuable" than others

And the complainers implied perspective that a priest in a developing country is somehow less valuable than one in Ireland.

El_Duderino 09

Mrs OBumble wrote:

And the complainers implied perspective that a priest in a developing country is somehow less valuable than one in Ireland.

The priest us making a rod for his own back by encouraging people to think about the meaning of mass cards.

If you think about it, the priest in India is exactly as qualified to do the labour as the salesman priest. You pay for the service of having the person remembered and the person gets extra prayer credits, the priest gets extra euros.

The problem is making people think about the whole idea of the mass card arrangement. If the customers are ringing liveliness. I'd say the other salesmen are furiously ringing the priest telling him to stop telling the customers about the subletting. Why on earth would he tell the customers?

Do the priests only have a limited number of prayer credits per day or something? If a priest in Asia can 'remember' someone in Ireland who they have never met, then couldn't one priest just 'remember' everyone in the world who has ever died? Job done.

As I said, the arrangement doesn't benefit from.anyone thinking about it so the priest was a fool to tell anyone he had sublet the remembering part.

Delirium

Rainman16 wrote: »

Mass cards are just another part of the scam, another way to part idiots from their money.

MOD NOTE

Please note you are posting in the Christianity forum and that referring to Christianity as a 'scam' is not appropriate.

Please modify your posts accordingly to avoid warnings and/or cards.

Thanks for your attention.

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

I came across this on LiveLine and it sort of strikes me as strange . . .

For crying out loud, 14 minutes? I can't be bothered listening to this; I have last-minute Christmas presents to wrap.

Can somebody with more patience than I have tell us what exactly is the complaint here? In what way is a priest in India thought to be unqualified to celebrate mass for someone's intentions?

DEFTLEFTHAND

Why can't you people just leave us and our customs alone?

You're not Catholic or other Christian denominations, that's cool you can do your thing a be an atheist.

But please don't disparage and mock the church which you left for cheap brownie points. For people who don't follow the faith your lives seem to revolve around criticising it on message boards.

If you were Confirmed you are a full made member of the Church and you will always be welcomed back if you chose to return. When you experience death in your family like I have you will remember that.

God is Love.

Cabaal

Manach wrote: »

Cards are a means to express a sense of shared emotion and communicative emotion - thus in one sense fulfil their function.

You've clearly not listened to the liveline show I linked to.
You might think thats what mass cards are for and if they are for just that then why would a Bishop be against mass cards being signed by a priest in India?

Would it be because the money goes to the Priest in India rather then the Irish church perhaps?

Cabaal

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why can't you people just leave us and our customs alone?

You don't live in a bubble,
No faith or idea should be free from being commented on, if thats the world you want to live in then you better find a time machine and go back to 1960's Ireland.

You're not Catholic or other Christian denominations, that's cool you can do your thing a be an atheist.

Anybody that isn't a catholic knows that doing your own thing is not liked by the catholic church, state funded schools consistently interfere with the upbringing of non Catholics. Denying them education and even when they get into schools often denying them their right to opt out of catholic religion classes.

I'm all for being allowed to do our own thing, but the church as the self declared moral guardians should lead by example and stay out of the business of non Catholics.

We know they are simply incapable of doing just that though, thats why they've been against every progressive thing in this country from loan parents allowances, contraception use/sale, marriage equality etc.

But please don't disparage and mock the church which you left for cheap brownie points. For people who don't follow the faith your lives seem to revolve around criticising it on message boards.

I know many Catholics that think mass cards are a complete and utter scam, are they scoring brownie points against their own faith too?

If you were Confirmed you are a full made member of the Church and you will always be welcomed back if you chose to return. When you experience death in your family like I have you will remember that.

I have experienced death in my family and the catholic church are like vultures to the dead, they'll stand up and talk about how well they knew the person and how religious the person was but the priest didn't know the dead person and the dead person sure as hell wasn't religious.

Lying to promote your religion is just wrong and yet its common practice among priests, I've seen it time and time again over the years.

In many parishes up and down the country the priests have banned family members from talking at the funeral mass in the church and instead the priest (who often doesn't know the dead person) will make some awful attempt to talk about a person they didn't even know.

I've also seen how they hang around old people trying to get what money they can out of them as the old people's brains are no longer as sharp as they used to be. Its disgusting to prey on vulnerable old people like this.

Skommando

And there's us thinking it was a thread about mass cards, when instead it's the same old ulterior agenda, the same sectarian cut and paste monologue rant, the same old soapboxing.

uck51js9zml2yt

Cabaal wrote: »

You don't live in a bubble,
No faith or idea should be free from being commented on, if thats the world you want to live in then you better find a time machine and go back to 1960's Ireland.



Anybody that isn't a catholic knows that doing your own thing is not liked by the catholic church, state funded schools consistently interfere with the upbringing of non Catholics. Denying them education and even when they get into schools often denying them their right to opt out of catholic religion classes.

I'm all for being allowed to do our own thing, but the church as the self declared moral guardians should lead by example and stay out of the business of non Catholics.

We know they are simply incapable of doing just that though, thats why they've been against every progressive thing in this country from loan parents allowances, contraception use/sale, marriage equality etc.




I know many Catholics that think mass cards are a complete and utter scam, are they scoring brownie points against their own faith too?




I have experienced death in my family and the catholic church are like vultures to the dead, they'll stand up and talk about how well they knew the person and how religious the person was but the priest didn't know the dead person and the dead person sure as hell wasn't religious.

Lying to promote your religion is just wrong and yet its common practice among priests, I've seen it time and time again over the years.

In many parishes up and down the country the priests have banned family members from talking at the funeral mass in the church and instead the priest (who often doesn't know the dead person) will make some awful attempt to talk about a person they didn't even know.

I've also seen how they hang around old people trying to get what money they can out of them as the old people's brains are no longer as sharp as they used to be. Its disgusting to prey on vulnerable old people like this.

Do you generalise much?

LordSutch

Bit of a mystery to us Anglicans, but I gather you pay money for the Priest to pray for the souls of the dead? ...or something like that.

I'm not knocking the practice, just displayng total ignorance on the subject.

Skommando

LordSutch wrote: »

Bit of a mystery to us Anglicans, but I gather you pay money for the Priest to pray for the souls of the dead? ...or something like that.

I'm not knocking the practice, just displayng total ignorance on the subject.

Not quite. It's a combination of several things, which understandably makes it confusing for those not familiar. Mass can be offered for any charitable intention, but it is often offered for the dearly departed. No money whatsoever is required to offer a mass for someone's intentions. All Churches rely on donations to pay the normal bills, including the simple living expenses of a priest, so a voluntary donation is often given along with the request.

So the mass card is really a laity invention, and a handy combination of a 'with sympathy card', a donation in that person's name, and having a mass said for them. The three things are separate and have no need to be combined, but the card simply makes it convenient to do three things in one at what seems a good time to do so.

Churches in the third world are also very grateful of the donation, and it's an important support for them, because although a small sum in the first world, a lot more can be done with it in the third world. As a result local priests here don't tend to get too involved in mass cards, unless they are retired / have the time.

As you can imagine in a Church that involves 1 billion people plus, there can be a small minority of less than scrupulous people who have exploited them on occasion. Overall the Church is pretty fed up with the exploitation of them by some and getting dragged into it, and can't control the small minority of unscrupulous or fake ones, that can give everyone a bad name, so although the Church doesn't object to mass cards per se (pretty hard to as it's a combination of separate things), it doesn't promote them either.

The majority of mass cards are legit and volunteer selling them makes no profit, but if I was buying one I'd personally like to know the card vendor, and the priest saying the mass, or be very sure of the foreign mission they are supposed to be going to. As far as I know a mass card can cost anywhere between a €5 and €10, but it's been a while since I bought one, so they could be more now. They are especially handy in the event you cannot attend the wake or funeral of someone and you can send a mass card instead, but people also often take one along to the wake to give to the deceased's relatives.

Some people get very excited in criticising mass cards, as they are a soft target and it's very easy to twist their meaning/purpose from their sincere intention. Can they be abused by a minority, of course they can like anything else that's not used for their intended purpose.

This is an imperfect stab at explaining the subject without taking up too much time, but hopefully it gives you an idea.

LordSutch

So you have to buy one for between €5 and €10 ... and this is instead of a Sympathy card I guess?

Skommando

LordSutch wrote: »

So you have to buy one for between €5 and €10 ... and this is instead of a Sympathy card I guess?

I think they're about that, it's been while, it can vary, probably more now, you don't have to buy one, you could buy a sympathy card, or you might not bother with any card, just like buying any card for another occasion it's up to the individual.

martinedwards

As a prod, the whole mass card thing sounds very like the selling of indulgences which was one of the things that Martin Luther got himself in a huff over.

Don't understand why someone would buy one in the first place, let alone one where some dude 4000 miles away does the praying

Skommando

Protestants also donate plenty to their Churches. Anything can be twisted to fit whatever agenda someone wants.

martinedwards

Skommando wrote: »

Protestants also donate plenty to their Churches. Anything can be twisted to fit whatever agenda someone wants.

True, but I've never been encouraged to donate to a church so that I could spiritually benefit. Sit on a soft seat, yes. Hear better quality sound, yes. Be under a roof that keeps out the rain, yes. Keep auntie Mabel out of hell.. No.

Galway_Old_Man

Skommando wrote: »

And there's us thinking it was a thread about mass cards, when instead it's the same old ulterior agenda, the same sectarian cut and paste monologue rant, the same old soapboxing.

And the same old thanks brigade Some people are just obsessed tbh.


Are Mass cards even a thing in other countries? They've come up at times in dealings with non-Irish Catholics, and they've never heard of them.

Mrs OBumble

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

Are Mass cards even a thing in other countries? They've come up at times in dealings with non-Irish Catholics, and they've never heard of them.

Where I come from, no they're not a thing among Catholics.

People do ask for a Mass to be said for particular intentions, and likely would give a discreet donation along with the request.

But I'd never heard of the idea of getting a card back that you could give to subject of the request or their family until I came here. IMHO the whole thing is a bit naff, and is mostly about being seen to do the right thing.

Skommando

martinedwards wrote: »

True, but I've never been encouraged to donate to a church so that I could spiritually benefit. Sit on a soft seat, yes. Hear better quality sound, yes. Be under a roof that keeps out the rain, yes. Keep auntie Mabel out of hell.. No.

The same as Catholics do, unless you want to pretend otherwise for sectarian purposes, in which case you'd be wrong again.

Skommando

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

Are Mass cards even a thing in other countries? They've come up at times in dealings with non-Irish Catholics, and they've never heard of them.

Some countries have them some don't. I know some south american countries have them.

martinedwards

Skommando wrote: »

The same as Catholics do, unless you want to pretend otherwise for sectarian purposes, in which case you'd be wrong again.

So, what is the point of a Mass card then?

is it a donation for someone to pray for the soul of a dead person?

if so then it is one of those areas where Protestantism and Catholicism differ.

Skommando

martinedwards wrote: »

So, what is the point of a Mass card then?

is it a donation for someone to pray for the soul of a dead person?

if so then it is one of those areas where Protestantism and Catholicism differ.

This was already answered, and Catholics pay for their clergy through donations as do Protestants.

martinedwards

Skommando wrote: »

This was already answered, and Catholics pay for their clergy through donations as do Protestants.

so not understanding your attack on me.

I didn't imply anything else.

El_Duderino 09

martinedwards wrote:

so not understanding your attack on me.

To be fair to the Catholics, it's a hard one to explain. The best approach is to tie Catholics and protestants together to minimise criticism (both churches are funded by donations). Otherwise the Catholics could be drawn into explaining the details of what exactly the mass card is for.

The obvious first thought is that it's a money racket to help the soul of the dead in some nebulous way. It doesn't help to wonder whether the first could just pray for the dead without receiving a donation. Would two priests saying one mass be more effective? Or could you buy 2 separate masses for twice the impact.

To the untrained eye it looks like paying for the placebo effect of licking up to the religion on behalf of the dead person, plus the social benefit of the priest announcing the dedication publicly. You also get the mass card as a receipt in the form of a mass card.

martinedwards

Social benefit?

Doesn't the bible say NOT to publish free will offerings?

El_Duderino 09

martinedwards wrote:

Doesn't the bible say NOT to publish free will offerings?

Tell that to the priest who announces that someone has paid good money to push their relatives to the top of the queue for extra prayer credits. Kind of like Ryanair priority boarding.

looksee

I have listened to the podcast and it appears that mass cards are being signed by a priest in India then distributed by a wholesaler in Ireland to various local shops.

These are purchased by individuals and it seems that the name of the person who is being remembered, or whose intentions are being prayed for have to be sent back to the wholesaler through the shop in order to be included in a mass said in India. The people are not individually named by the priest, and indeed he does not have to examine the lists of names that are sent by registered letter, he is just including in the mass those intentions.

However if you go back to 2009, laws were passed, with the support of Irish bishops to prevent the sale of pre-signed mass cards - civil laws, not church laws, relating to charity regulations afaics.

Wednesday, July 29, 2009
By Mary Regan Political Reporter
LAWS banning the sale of pre-signed Mass cards have come into effect to end a multi-million euro commercial activity which some Church leaders said had no spiritual value.

From now on, Mass cards will have to be signed by a priest in the company of those who request them, or can be pre-sold only by a “recognised person” – either a Catholic bishop or provincial of a Catholic religious order.

Some bishops had raised concerns that Mass cards were being sold, for about €5 each, and pre-signed by priests who were either dead or not in good standing

.

So regardless of one's opinion on the value of Mass Cards, this process is apparently not legal. The real question is how this person can come on a radio programme and openly discuss something that is, apparently breaking the law.

The statute in question is here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/6/section/99/enacted/en/html

Skommando

Anything, in any denomination, and particularly a domination numbering a billion people, can be abused, but of course the sectarians and haters love to exploit the anti catholic element.

El_Duderino 09

Skommando wrote:

Anything, in any denomination, and particularly a domination numbering a billion people, can be abused, but of course the sectarians and haters love to exploit the anti catholic element.

Ifonly they weren't so blatent about it, then the haters would at least have to work hard to point out the funny bits

Skommando

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ifonly they weren't so blatent about it, then the haters would at least have to work hard to point out the funny bits

exactly what's funny about people of whatever persuasion being defrauded ?

Skommando

looksee wrote: »

So regardless of one's opinion on the value of Mass Cards, this process is apparently not legal. The real question is how this person can come on a radio programme and openly discuss something that is, apparently breaking the law.

The statute in question is here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/6/section/99/enacted/en/html

Radio programmes talk about law breaking all the time, and legitimate mass cards don't break any laws.

looksee

Skommando wrote: »

Radio programmes talk about law breaking all the time, and legitimate mass cards don't break any laws.

Have you a) listened to the podcast, and b) looked at the legislation?

The whole question here is whether these cards are legitimate, and it appears that they are not.

Skommando

looksee wrote: »

Have you a) listened to the podcast, and b) looked at the legislation?

The whole question here is whether these cards are legitimate, and it appears that they are not.

yes have you ? they law addresses bogus mass cards, or are you now trying to claim/portray all mass cards as illegal ?

http://irishcatholic.ie/article/bogus-mass-cards-will-finally-be-banned

El_Duderino 09

Skommando wrote:

exactly what's funny about people of whatever persuasion being defrauded ?

Nothing at all funny about it. Some people feel the need to justify it though, and that's at least amusing

Skommando

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nothing at all funny about it. Some people feel the need to justify it though, and that's at least amusing

who's justifying the bogus mass cards ?

El_Duderino 09

Skommando wrote:

who's justifying the bogus mass cards ?

You're going miles out of your way to justify mass cards.

It would need theologically motivated reasoning to draw a distinction between types of mass cards

Skommando

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're going miles out of your way to justify mass cards.

nope, just challenging the sectarian and false claims being made about them, which some people are going out of their way to try and promote, sorry if I spoiled the party.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would need theologically motivated reasoning to draw a distinction between types of mass cards

so how was the state able to introduce legislation against bogus ones ?

El_Duderino 09

Skommando wrote:

nope, just challenging the sectarian and false claims being made about them, which some people are going out of their way to try and promote, sorry if I spoiled the party.

What false claims were made about them?

Skommando wrote:

so how was the state able to introduce legislation against bogus ones ?

If there is legislation against some types of tarot card readers or psychics, it wouldn't change the nature of the activity.

If there isn't legislation against psychics, would that make it more legitimate or less legitimate in your opinion?

looksee

Skommando wrote: »

yes have you ? they law addresses bogus mass cards, or are you now trying to claim/portray all mass cards as illegal ?

http://irishcatholic.ie/article/bogus-mass-cards-will-finally-be-banned

I have not commented on legal mass cards. I have not tried to portray all mass cards as illegal. I have pointed out that the original subject of discussion, the ones that are being signed in India, appear to be illegal according to media commentry, and the legislation.

If cards are legal then they are irrelevant to this discussion. I cannot see why people are so anxious to establish that these ones are legal, the church has expressed doubt about them, they are not doing the image of legal ones any favours, why support them?

LordSutch

Skommando wrote: »

so how was the state able to introduce legislation against bogus ones ?

Problem is I'm still not 100% sure how you can distinguish beteen a bogus one and a genuine one. Both require the exchange of money for prayer ...

This practice goes totally against the grain from my perspective, but then again I am not RC, so I say, each to their own, live & let let live, and 'vive la différence' among the different strands of our worldwide Christian Church.

I guess it would be boring if we were all the same, and I'm sure that some of our Anglican traditions also seem a bit odd to those of you from other Christian traditions. To me, Mass cards are just one of theose differences, and that's cool.

Simples.

Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all.

looksee

LordSutch wrote: »

Problem is I'm still not 100% sure how you can distinguish beteen a bogus one and a genuine one. Both require the exchange of money for prayer ...

This practice goes totally against the grain from my perspective, but then again I am not RC, so I say, each to their own, live & let let live, and 'vive la différence' among the different strands of our worldwide Christian Church.

I guess it would be boring if we were all the same, and I'm sure that some of our Anglican traditions also seem a bit odd to those of you from other Christian traditions. To me, Mass cards are just one of theose differences, and that's cool.

Simples.

Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all.

Once you accept that Mass Cards are a legitimate concept - and for the purpose of this discussion, they are, it is easy to tell the difference.

Where a priest, in the presence of the applicant, has signed a mass card with the intention of including it in a mass said in that church then it is genuine. Whether an offering is made or not is irrelevant. It becomes bogus when a third (and sometimes fourth) party arranges for cards to be signed by someone not approved by the church (see legislation link in previous post).

It is arguable (just) that the priest could sign the cards and say masses for the intentions of who-ever buys the cards, with no further link. This is too open to abuse though and is not acceptable by the church, or indeed legally.

Whether you accept the validity or morality of mass cards generally, or can do the mental gymnastics required to understand them, is irrelevant.

Skommando

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What false claims were made about them?

The ones highlighted

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If there is legislation against some types of tarot card readers or psychics, it wouldn't change the nature of the activity.

If there isn't legislation against psychics, would that make it more legitimate or less legitimate in your opinion?

I've no interest in them, or many of the 10001 other things legislation regulates that I don't use, if something needs regulating I presume the government regulate it, from horse racing, to charities to buses.

Skommando

LordSutch wrote: »

Both require the exchange of money for prayer ...

That's incorrect as has already been pointed out several times.
Catholics no more exchange money for prayer than do Protestants making a donation to their local Church or Minister.