People getting upset about mass cards

El_Duderino 09

martinedwards wrote:

so not understanding your attack on me.

To be fair to the Catholics, it's a hard one to explain. The best approach is to tie Catholics and protestants together to minimise criticism (both churches are funded by donations). Otherwise the Catholics could be drawn into explaining the details of what exactly the mass card is for.

The obvious first thought is that it's a money racket to help the soul of the dead in some nebulous way. It doesn't help to wonder whether the first could just pray for the dead without receiving a donation. Would two priests saying one mass be more effective? Or could you buy 2 separate masses for twice the impact.

To the untrained eye it looks like paying for the placebo effect of licking up to the religion on behalf of the dead person, plus the social benefit of the priest announcing the dedication publicly. You also get the mass card as a receipt in the form of a mass card.

martinedwards

Social benefit?

Doesn't the bible say NOT to publish free will offerings?

El_Duderino 09

martinedwards wrote:

Doesn't the bible say NOT to publish free will offerings?

Tell that to the priest who announces that someone has paid good money to push their relatives to the top of the queue for extra prayer credits. Kind of like Ryanair priority boarding.

looksee

I have listened to the podcast and it appears that mass cards are being signed by a priest in India then distributed by a wholesaler in Ireland to various local shops.

These are purchased by individuals and it seems that the name of the person who is being remembered, or whose intentions are being prayed for have to be sent back to the wholesaler through the shop in order to be included in a mass said in India. The people are not individually named by the priest, and indeed he does not have to examine the lists of names that are sent by registered letter, he is just including in the mass those intentions.

However if you go back to 2009, laws were passed, with the support of Irish bishops to prevent the sale of pre-signed mass cards - civil laws, not church laws, relating to charity regulations afaics.

Wednesday, July 29, 2009
By Mary Regan Political Reporter
LAWS banning the sale of pre-signed Mass cards have come into effect to end a multi-million euro commercial activity which some Church leaders said had no spiritual value.

From now on, Mass cards will have to be signed by a priest in the company of those who request them, or can be pre-sold only by a “recognised person” – either a Catholic bishop or provincial of a Catholic religious order.

Some bishops had raised concerns that Mass cards were being sold, for about €5 each, and pre-signed by priests who were either dead or not in good standing

.

So regardless of one's opinion on the value of Mass Cards, this process is apparently not legal. The real question is how this person can come on a radio programme and openly discuss something that is, apparently breaking the law.

The statute in question is here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/6/section/99/enacted/en/html

Skommando

Anything, in any denomination, and particularly a domination numbering a billion people, can be abused, but of course the sectarians and haters love to exploit the anti catholic element.

El_Duderino 09

Skommando wrote:

Anything, in any denomination, and particularly a domination numbering a billion people, can be abused, but of course the sectarians and haters love to exploit the anti catholic element.

Ifonly they weren't so blatent about it, then the haters would at least have to work hard to point out the funny bits

Skommando

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ifonly they weren't so blatent about it, then the haters would at least have to work hard to point out the funny bits

exactly what's funny about people of whatever persuasion being defrauded ?

Skommando

looksee wrote: »

So regardless of one's opinion on the value of Mass Cards, this process is apparently not legal. The real question is how this person can come on a radio programme and openly discuss something that is, apparently breaking the law.

The statute in question is here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/6/section/99/enacted/en/html

Radio programmes talk about law breaking all the time, and legitimate mass cards don't break any laws.

looksee

Skommando wrote: »

Radio programmes talk about law breaking all the time, and legitimate mass cards don't break any laws.

Have you a) listened to the podcast, and b) looked at the legislation?

The whole question here is whether these cards are legitimate, and it appears that they are not.

Skommando

looksee wrote: »

Have you a) listened to the podcast, and b) looked at the legislation?

The whole question here is whether these cards are legitimate, and it appears that they are not.

yes have you ? they law addresses bogus mass cards, or are you now trying to claim/portray all mass cards as illegal ?

http://irishcatholic.ie/article/bogus-mass-cards-will-finally-be-banned

El_Duderino 09

Skommando wrote:

exactly what's funny about people of whatever persuasion being defrauded ?

Nothing at all funny about it. Some people feel the need to justify it though, and that's at least amusing

Skommando

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nothing at all funny about it. Some people feel the need to justify it though, and that's at least amusing

who's justifying the bogus mass cards ?

El_Duderino 09

Skommando wrote:

who's justifying the bogus mass cards ?

You're going miles out of your way to justify mass cards.

It would need theologically motivated reasoning to draw a distinction between types of mass cards

Skommando

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're going miles out of your way to justify mass cards.

nope, just challenging the sectarian and false claims being made about them, which some people are going out of their way to try and promote, sorry if I spoiled the party.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would need theologically motivated reasoning to draw a distinction between types of mass cards

so how was the state able to introduce legislation against bogus ones ?

El_Duderino 09

Skommando wrote:

nope, just challenging the sectarian and false claims being made about them, which some people are going out of their way to try and promote, sorry if I spoiled the party.

What false claims were made about them?

Skommando wrote:

so how was the state able to introduce legislation against bogus ones ?

If there is legislation against some types of tarot card readers or psychics, it wouldn't change the nature of the activity.

If there isn't legislation against psychics, would that make it more legitimate or less legitimate in your opinion?

looksee

Skommando wrote: »

yes have you ? they law addresses bogus mass cards, or are you now trying to claim/portray all mass cards as illegal ?

http://irishcatholic.ie/article/bogus-mass-cards-will-finally-be-banned

I have not commented on legal mass cards. I have not tried to portray all mass cards as illegal. I have pointed out that the original subject of discussion, the ones that are being signed in India, appear to be illegal according to media commentry, and the legislation.

If cards are legal then they are irrelevant to this discussion. I cannot see why people are so anxious to establish that these ones are legal, the church has expressed doubt about them, they are not doing the image of legal ones any favours, why support them?

LordSutch

Skommando wrote: »

so how was the state able to introduce legislation against bogus ones ?

Problem is I'm still not 100% sure how you can distinguish beteen a bogus one and a genuine one. Both require the exchange of money for prayer ...

This practice goes totally against the grain from my perspective, but then again I am not RC, so I say, each to their own, live & let let live, and 'vive la différence' among the different strands of our worldwide Christian Church.

I guess it would be boring if we were all the same, and I'm sure that some of our Anglican traditions also seem a bit odd to those of you from other Christian traditions. To me, Mass cards are just one of theose differences, and that's cool.

Simples.

Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all.

looksee

LordSutch wrote: »

Problem is I'm still not 100% sure how you can distinguish beteen a bogus one and a genuine one. Both require the exchange of money for prayer ...

This practice goes totally against the grain from my perspective, but then again I am not RC, so I say, each to their own, live & let let live, and 'vive la différence' among the different strands of our worldwide Christian Church.

I guess it would be boring if we were all the same, and I'm sure that some of our Anglican traditions also seem a bit odd to those of you from other Christian traditions. To me, Mass cards are just one of theose differences, and that's cool.

Simples.

Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all.

Once you accept that Mass Cards are a legitimate concept - and for the purpose of this discussion, they are, it is easy to tell the difference.

Where a priest, in the presence of the applicant, has signed a mass card with the intention of including it in a mass said in that church then it is genuine. Whether an offering is made or not is irrelevant. It becomes bogus when a third (and sometimes fourth) party arranges for cards to be signed by someone not approved by the church (see legislation link in previous post).

It is arguable (just) that the priest could sign the cards and say masses for the intentions of who-ever buys the cards, with no further link. This is too open to abuse though and is not acceptable by the church, or indeed legally.

Whether you accept the validity or morality of mass cards generally, or can do the mental gymnastics required to understand them, is irrelevant.

Skommando

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What false claims were made about them?

The ones highlighted

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If there is legislation against some types of tarot card readers or psychics, it wouldn't change the nature of the activity.

If there isn't legislation against psychics, would that make it more legitimate or less legitimate in your opinion?

I've no interest in them, or many of the 10001 other things legislation regulates that I don't use, if something needs regulating I presume the government regulate it, from horse racing, to charities to buses.

Skommando

LordSutch wrote: »

Both require the exchange of money for prayer ...

That's incorrect as has already been pointed out several times.
Catholics no more exchange money for prayer than do Protestants making a donation to their local Church or Minister.

Skommando

looksee wrote: »

Whether you accept the validity or morality of mass cards generally, or can do the mental gymnastics required to understand them, is irrelevant.

There is no mental gymnastics required, it's a card, a donation, and confirmation that a mass will be said for a named person.

looksee

Skommando wrote: »

There is no mental gymnastics required, it's a card, a donation, and confirmation that a mass will be said for a named person.

If a donation is a necessary part of the transaction, then it is more a payment than a donation. And it is the logistics of the 'confirmation' that is causing the issues. As I said, the mental gymnastics are irrelevant to the argument about whether cards are legitimate or bogus, so why have you picked up on that?

You have been trying to prove that an open discussion about bogus mass cards,
cards that are not approved by the Catholic church or the State, is somehow sectarian and proves everyone is out to 'get' the Catholic church, now you are reduced to quibbling about a sentence that again you chose to read incorrectly and in a way that you thought suited your argument.

Skommando

looksee wrote: »

If a donation is a necessary part of the transaction, then it is more a payment than a donation. And it is the logistics of the 'confirmation' that is causing the issues. As I said, the mental gymnastics are irrelevant to the argument about whether cards are legitimate or bogus, so why have you picked up on that?

You have been trying to prove that an open discussion about bogus mass cards, cards that are not approved by the Catholic church or the State, is somehow sectarian and proves everyone is out to 'get' the Catholic church, now you are reduced to quibbling about a sentence that again you chose to read incorrectly and in a way that you thought suited your argument.

Mental gymnastics was your claim and terminology about mass cards not mine. The only mental gymnastics here are yours.
You are the one pretending what I've posted, I've only challenged any misrepresentations and explained any misconceptions about Mass cards, you only stared to differentiate between legit mass cards and bogus ones when you where corrected. If you don't like that, and you clearly don't like it, the problem is yours, not mine.

LordSutch

Skommando wrote: »

Catholics no more exchange money for prayer than do Protestants making a donation to their local Church or Minister.

The contents of the collection plate usually go towards the upkeep of the building, the organ, the poor, for this cause or that cause, or whatever the needs be at any one time. And we pray, we pray a lot, but we still don't buy Mass cards )

Each to their own.

Skommando

LordSutch wrote: »

The contents of the collection plate usually go towards the upkeep of the building, the organ, the poor, for this cause or that cause, or whatever the needs be at any one time. And we pray, we pray a lot, but we still don't buy Mass cards )

Each to their own.

And also to the upkeep of your clergy. As does the donation component of the Mass card. Each to their own indeed.

ABC101

Skommando wrote: »

And there's us thinking it was a thread about mass cards, when instead it's the same old ulterior agenda, the same sectarian cut and paste monologue rant, the same old soapboxing.

That's why I no longer post in this forum anymore. It's become a place where religion is portrayed as a scam and believers are portrayed as idiots.

solodeogloria

ABC101 wrote: »

That's why I no longer post in this forum anymore. It's become a place where religion is portrayed as a scam and believers are portrayed as idiots.

Good morning!

I think this is slightly unfair. I think most of the questions that have been raised about mass cards are about those unfamiliar with the concept.

I'm still confused as to why a mass being said for someone would be any more different to a prayer, or a sympathy card being offered. I personally would like to understand this, but people insisting that people that have genuine questions are somehow "sectarian" are being unreasonable.

As for donations. Generally speaking, donations are made by parishioners for the upkeep of their church. It's generally understood, that the pastor's salary, and the costs of electricity, and mission aren't free and as a result Christians give with a generous and open heart to do that.

However, I'm confused with the concept of a mass card, because it can quickly end up with the conclusion that you are paying for a mass or a prayer, which does bring up memory of Johann Tetzel in the mind of most people from a Reformed perspective. If it is a donation, it would be optional right?

I might be a Protestant, but I'm allowed to ask questions and learn. The same is true for the others on this thread.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Skommando

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I think this is slightly unfair. I think most of the questions that have been raised about mass cards are about those unfamiliar with the concept.

I'm still confused as to why a mass being said for someone would be any more different to a prayer, or a sympathy card being offered.

As has been explained over and over and over, it isn't any different.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I personally would like to understand this, but people insisting that people that have genuine questions are somehow "sectarian" are being unreasonable.

The questions have been repeatedly answered. Trying to skew or ignore the answers and continually trying and construe another denominations / beliefs cards as something they are not is sectarian.

solodeogloria wrote: »

As for donations. Generally speaking, donations are made by parishioners for the upkeep of their church. It's generally understood, that the pastor's salary, and the costs of electricity, and mission aren't free and as a result Christians give with a generous and open heart to do that.

However, I'm confused with the concept of a mass card, because it can quickly end up with the conclusion that you are paying for a mass or a prayer, which does bring up memory of Johann Tetzel in the mind of most people from a Reformed perspective. If it is a donation, it would be optional right?

I might be a Protestant, but I'm allowed to ask questions and learn. The same is true for the others on this thread.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

As has been repeatedly explained in this thread and will no doubt be ignored, and will have to be soon repeated again, a mass can be said for anyone with or without donation. Priests say masses all the time for people without donation, but people also often, if they choose, make donations along with mass request and no card is even needed. A mass card is just another means and way of doing this, because it can also be given to the relatives of the bereaved Catholic to express sympathy at a time of bereavement, just like a sympathy card can, but with the added comfort that a mass will also be said for the deceased. Sometimes Catholics sometimes give mass cards along with their personal condolences, some don't, some people send them when they can't attend in person to sympathise, some don't, just like sympathy cards they are entirely optional personal gesture.

looksee

ABC101 wrote: »

That's why I no longer post in this forum anymore. It's become a place where religion is portrayed as a scam and believers are portrayed as idiots.

This is simply not true, nor is Skommando's attitude. From the start of the thread the discussion was about mass cards that are sold improperly, but Skommando is so busy being offended rather than debating that he has continuously twisted comments so that he could interpret them as anti Catholic.

Look down the list of topics and there are a majority that only matters of interest to Christians/Catholics. I get the impression that some contributors would prefer the entire forum to be RC and that other brands of Christianity, and certainly non-believers, are not allowed to get involved. This would create a situation similar to, for example, a politics forum would be just Fine Gael or Fine Fail and opposing views were not allowed to be expressed, it would not be much of a discussion.

Mass cards (as defined in Ireland) appear to be rather specifically Irish - and found in places where there is an Irish Catholic population - if you go elsewhere and try to research them you will find Catholic prayer cards, remembrance cards etc, but they do not have a mass attached, they are simply purchased in the way you would purchase a birthday card. To non-Catholics they are only a tiny step away from Indulgences. Discussing this aspect is not (for most people) mocking belief.

Skommando

looksee wrote: »

This is simply not true, nor is Skommando's attitude. From the start of the thread the discussion was about mass cards that are sold improperly

Yet again that isn't true, only when you were repeatedly asked to did you differentiate between bogus mass cards and legitimate ones.

looksee wrote: »

Look down the list of topics and there are a majority that only matters of interest to Christians/Catholics. I get the impression that some contributors would prefer the entire forum to be RC and that other brands of Christianity, and certainly non-believers, are not allowed to get involved.

Ironically, this thread, and in fact great deal of them on the forum, are not started by Catholics or Christians. I apologise for the fact that from time to time Catholics also have the right to reply to accusations or misrepresentations on this forum, and that whenever false assertions about Catholics and Christianity are made on this forum, they don't always go unchallenged, just as they don't if you make them about anything else on any forum.
Given the population of Catholics / Christians in this country, very few actually use this forum, and less and less so.

I think you should report you allegations about the forum and it's moderation, to the moderators, none of whom, by the way are Catholics, Christian, or Theist, so I think you'll find you'll get a very fair hearing, and they can best guide you. I believe there is a feedback forum you can avail of specially for this purpose, and I would encourage you to avail of it as well.