Bow Hunting (MOD NOTE in post #1)

Pkiernan

I wish we could bow hunt in Ireland. ..


==============================================================================================
MOD NOTE

Just letting folks know i've split out the talk about a bow as it can do with it's own thread.

Original thread here.
===============================================================================================

gunny123

Pkiernan wrote: »

I wish we could bow hunt in Ireland. ..

You see thats what i don't understand, in africa for heavy game the legal minimum rifle is the .375 h+h. Yet the other night a video appears on a channel i subscribe to on youtube showing a guy shooting a cape buffalo with an arrow. The animal of course ran off, and died later.

But how can it be legal to use archery stuff, which is very inferior in power to nearly any centrefire rifle ?

Cass

I've seen many people talk about bow hunting, but i for one would not touch it and would hate to see it being allowed.

A rifle has much more energy, is more accurate, and far easier to use and still there are people out there that cannot use a rifle to cleanly take down an animal. Imagine the amount of deer, foxes, even rabbits running around with arrows stuck in them. Not to mention someone will think they are robin fecking hood and try take a pheasant or other bird with one. It's not better than someone raising a rifle to shoot a bird out of flight (i've actually seen this).

The other thing is the silence of a bow. Most rifles, even suppressed ones,, make a pretty loud bang so you know if someone is out and about. Not with bows so if out yourself or someone else out walking you won't hear the arrow being fired. It's a long one i know, but still.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

I've seen many people talk about bow hunting, but i for one would not touch it and would hate to see it being allowed.

A rifle has much more energy, is more accurate, and far easier to use and still there are people out there that cannot use a rifle to cleanly take down an animal. Imagine the amount of deer, foxes, even rabbits running around with arrows stuck in them. Not to mention someone will think they are robin fecking hood and try take a pheasant or other bird with one. It's not better than someone raising a rifle to shoot a bird out of flight (i've actually seen this).

The other thing is the silence of a bow. Most rifles, even suppressed ones,, make a pretty loud bang so you know if someone is out and about. Not with bows so if out yourself or someone else out walking you won't hear the arrow being fired. It's a long one i know, but still.

A relatively weak bow will kill a deer with the correct arrowhead. The native Americans rarely used bows above 45lbs draw weight to kill buffalo at short range. A 110lbs bow was used by legendary bowhunter Howard Hill to kill an African elephant.

Broadhead arrowheads kill by severing blood vessels. Small game like rabbits and birds can be killed by shock, using blunt heads.

It takes a lot of skill to hunt successfully with a bow and arrow, but on large game, accuracy is less important than sharp arrow heads, as the severing of any large blood vessel will cause incapacitation/death.

Not so with small creatures, as they will usually escape to cover unless hit right.

Also, with a bow, range is restricted - not by loss of accuracy (bows are intrinsically surprisingly accurate), but by game sensing the projectile at range and getting out of the way (it doesn't happen like you see in the movies - 100fps is a decent arrow speed).

yubabill1

gunny123 wrote: »

You see thats what i don't understand, in africa for heavy game the legal minimum rifle is the .375 h+h. Yet the other night a video appears on a channel i subscribe to on youtube showing a guy shooting a cape buffalo with an arrow. The animal of course ran off, and died later.

But how can it be legal to use archery stuff, which is very inferior in power to nearly any centrefire rifle ?

The actor who played Siegfried in the old TV vet series (both names escape me) is an avid archer and wrote a famous book on archery called "The Longbow" I think - 2 glasses of wine in me...pathetic.

Anyway, in the book, he talks about a famous Danish bowhunter who travelled to Africa maybe 100 years ago, now. The bowhunter sought a hunting permit for an African country and had a face-to-face with an skeptical native official, who asked him whether arrows hurt the quarry?

The bowhunter said no, the arrow kills by bleeding, which makes the quarry feel sleepy but which causes relatively little pain. The official wrote the permit and rolled up his trouser legs, pointing to scars on each and saying
"These ones on this leg were caused by arrows and they didn't particularly hurt, but these were caused by bullets and they hurt like hell."

Robert Hardy - remembered his name.

All Creatures Great and Small.

There is hope.

Grizzly 45

And there are people out there who do take down winged game in flight with bows.Special arrows called flu flu arrows. I mean its hard enough to take down a pheasent at full throttle with a shotgun and 150 pellets..What skill is involved to do that with one arrow?
You can't really compare either bow or rifle shooting in techniques,distances or killing method.Where an arrow will kill with massive blood loss,a bullet does by a massive energy dump.

You can be sure if there are non shooters about and getting hit by an arrow will be the least of the problems,as the animal will be long gone by the time they arrive on the scene. Bowhunting is really a thing of 50 to 60 meters and closer if possible.Either from a tree stand or serious cammo.Making mistakes like sound,smell,shine, shape,is bad enough when rifle hunting.It is unforgiveable when bow hunting.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

A relatively weak bow will kill a deer with the correct arrowhead.

I'm not saying that a bow cannot do the job, but more so questioning the effectiveness of them in certain hands.

The native Americans rarely used bows above 45lbs draw weight to kill buffalo at short range.

Imagine what they would have done with a 308.

Seriously though times move on, and for me, so should we. The discussion of morality & ethics of hunting is prohibited on this forum but in this case its not about that as much as it is about its effectiveness. I'd sooner take a good caliber rifle over a bow.

For me its about the stalk. I know at the ranges i shoot at a bow would most likely do the same job. However i know a bullet doing 2,600 - 3,000fps with an impact energy of 1,400 - 2,200 ft/lb is more appealing to me than an arrow.

Again it's a personal choice. Not criticising the sport of bow hunting.

However as it's illegal here it's all academic.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

H

A good friend of mine has gone Boar shooting in Europe and the first time he went he brought his 6.5. He was told no, the gun put into storage, and handed a 30-06

.

That would be SOP alright.By law it has to be starting a 7mm something, but yet the Swedes have been dropping moose with 6.5 Mauser for the last 100 years or so.And it took my cousin 4 rounds of 30.06 to drop his first Alaskan moose which was trotting after a cow moose. So it seems that if you can stalk and get all conditions perfect ,like a standing target,yeah with critical shot placement you could drop anything with a .22.But as said in the really real world,it's better to have more gun.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

I

Imagine what they would have done with a 308.

Um palefaces smoke pole was much prized possesion of red man!:P
There are accounts of the most ridicilous valuable things been offered for crappy old trade muskets by the Indians.It has been said of the rifles recoverd from the numerous massacres of the genuine Americans,that their guns were kept in exempelry condition that put the govt troops to shame.

Dunno if you are a Family Guy fan,but there is one episode where Stewie and Brian travel back in time and give the Indians M16s just as the pilgrims are settling in for the 1st thanksgiving dinner.:D

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Um palefaces smoke pole was much prized possesion of red man!:P
There are accounts of the most ridicilous valuable things been offered for crappy old trade muskets by the Indians.It has been said of the rifles recoverd from the numerous massacres of the genuine Americans,that their guns were kept in exempelry condition that put the govt troops to shame.

Dunno if you are a Family Guy fan,but there is one episode where Stewie and Brian travel back in time and give the Indians M16s just as the pilgrims are settling in for the 1st thanksgiving dinner.:D

A gun made a deadly combination with the Native American's stalking abilities.

I taught myself to call rabbits - kid you not - from a book by Dr. Saxton Pope on the skills he was taught by Ishi, the last "wild" Native American.

They come running, but it's unfair as most that come are pregnant does. If you're starving, OK....

Pkiernan

A bow kills by cutting not energy transfer. Kill zone is the same size, basically heart and lungs.
A 50lb compound bow is as lethal as any calibre that can be licensed here.
Range is naturally reduced, but the last 2 stags I've seen while hunting were less than 50 feet away. .

cookimonster

There are plenty of Utube videos showing instant kill shots from bow hunters in the US but the majority show the animal running off. The distance ran varies from sub hundred yards to way beyond. The common practice is the stealthy use of tree stand and ground blinds and when a animal has been successfully stuck is to wait for the animal to bleed out and not to pressure it to run on.
So if bow hunting of deer came to pass here do we actually have suitable forestry to do so. The prolific planting of fir trees, the lack of proper management such as glades etc would IMO hinder the sport.
I recently read articles about the use of tree stands and there lack of popularity in the UK and mainland Europe, one of the reasons stated was the lack of suitable tree species that lend themselves to be used in conjunction with various types of stands. Couple this with tightly planted plantations of fir trees and the deers inbuilt ability to disappear into the most impenetrable bush and undergrowth would further compound the question of suitable environment.
As I said earlier I rely in part on the blunt force of my round to anchor my quarry regardless whether it's 125 yards away on open ground but more so if it's 25 yards away and standing on the edge of dense forestry etc.

Crow Pigeon and Pheasant

I have to admit bow hunting is an incredibly difficult sport! I have a small bow for craic trying to hit targets and it is incredibly hard!

Grizzly 45

European bow hunting federation

http://www.europeanbowhunting.org/index.php/general

cookimonster

I was on a few days driven boar shooting in northern Spain. Most of us were carrying a mixture of slug guns, 300 Win mag, 8x62 (?) etc, but one lad brought out a compound bow with wicked sharp, as in razor sharp tri bladed arrows.
After seening some of the boar take multiple, if not idealy placed, 300 Win Mag rounds and still go , I'd certainly want to be up a tree if I was sporting a bow and pray to God that boars can't climb.

cookimonster

Crow Pigeon and Pheasant wrote: »

I have to admit bow hunting is an incredibly difficult sport! I have a small bow for craic trying to hit targets and it is incredibly hard!

Have a look at some Dave Canterbury vids about bow hunting. I modified a few of my fiberglass arrows into 'thumpers' with old brass and plink tin cans around my back garden when shooting is slack and boredom takes hold.

FISMA.

yubabill1 wrote: »

100fps is a decent arrow speed.

330fps .

Don't forget that in the States (and it varies by state) there are different seasons.

Bow usually goes first, as it is the most difficult. Then muzzle loader (ML), shotgun, and rifle.

Great thing about the bow is that it usually takes the deer a few days to cop the pressure is back on. Contrast that to the duck hunters that usually ruin my opening day in September!:mad:

The ML is fun too, truly a one shot game. Definitely need a cold clean barrel zero.

Even with pellets, 12ga primer, and sabots, you'll be lucky to get a follow-up shot off fast enough. However, with 300gr SST's, no follow up shot needed.

Shotguns are fun too. The auld 870 loves the kick with 250gr of SST.

To each his own, I love them all!

deeksofdoom

Seen a few of those nut jobs with the bows hunting dangerous game on YouTube and they always seem to have a backup guy with a rifle..... I don't think they really trust the bloody things themselves.

Grizzly 45

Naw,they cant climb.But get enough of them and they'd proably dig out the tree roots to get you down!:D

yubabill1

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Seen a few of those nut jobs with the bows hunting dangerous game on YouTube and they always seem to have a backup guy with a rifle..... I don't think they really trust the bloody things themselves.

The famous Howard Hill hunted African lions without a backup gun.

There is famous footage of him stopping a charging lion with one arrow.

Not for snowflakes.

He was an amazing shot and in the days before CGI or the string apparatus to guide slow moving arrows, later sped-up, he would shoot an arrow into a block of wood worn on the chest/back by moving horse riding actors in films such as Robin Hood starring Errol Flynn.

Flynn went on bow hunts with Hill subsequently.

arrowloopboy

I personally think a .243 isn't enough gun for Sika stalking ,but out of respect for my quarry ,if forced to chose between a .22 rimfire and a bow and arrow (no matter how fancy),i'd go with the pea shooter ,its an unsuitable, irresponsible wepon of choice for anything other than small game .
A clean quick kill should be top priority ,not bragging rights of what he managed with his bow and arrow:rolleyes:

Zxthinger

So you think there is not enough energy in a 243 for small sika deer, come on man get real.
Your belief that that a 22lr would be a more humane option than a broadhead is seriously flawed.
Any well placed broadhead arrow will kill a deer in seconds or 10s of seconds and with little to no stress. I have seen deer which have been bow hunted from 30 odd yards and after receiving a fatel blow and making the initial jump of fright they returned to grazing thereafter they just fell over and died.

Bow hunting needs good regulation and practitioners of the sport need to be well trained with good self control. This sport would be ideal in Ireland's urban sprawl with rural areas contested with houses and a lot of small fields where in which rifles are not really suited.

arrowloopboy

Well regulated ,well trained ,come outa the fog will ya ,do you live/hunt here ?
The most humane option for killing Sikas is a .270 not a fukcin broadhead ,it might wash in somewhere like Texas ,but will never wash here !

Zxthinger

You work away with yer 270.. If ye think that's what ye need then I'm not going to try and make you change your ways.
As to stepping out of the fog.. Besides Texas(and the rest of the US) there are at least 11 other European countries that permit bow hunting in some form and then there also bow hunting in Australia, Canada, Mexico, Argentina and New Zealand not to mention the African countries who permit it.
?Do you think they are all in the fog too??

With little practice one can become effective with a modern compound bow and if one operates within the established parameters then it is deemed by all the above nations to be an effective and humane method of harvesting game.

Yes it's currently illegal to hunt in IRE with such a equipment but that does not have any bearing on the effectiveness of the sport.

gunny123

Zxthinger wrote: »

You work away with yer 270.. If ye think that's what ye need then I'm not going to try and make you change your ways.
As to stepping out of the fog.. Besides Texas(and the rest of the US) there are at least 11 other European countries that permit bow hunting in some form and then there also bow hunting in Australia, Canada, Mexico, Argentina and New Zealand not to mention the African countries who permit it.
?Do you think they are all in the fog too??

With little practice one can become effective with a modern compound bow and if one operates within the established parameters then it is deemed by all the above nations to be an effective and humane method of harvesting game.

Yes it's currently illegal to hunt in IRE with such a equipment but that does not have any bearing on the effectiveness of the sport.

You know why its illegal here, every little scrote in the country would be out in the countryside trying to skewer deer with arrows "cos its legal righ". Anyway the fact its illegal here is no recommendation one way or the other, reloading is illegal here, practical shooting sports are illegal here, muzzleloading shooting sports are illegal here, fine everywhere else but illegal here. Its the typical irish mindset, we're right and the rest of the world is wrong.

arrowloopboy

I'm sure a bow is a perfectly quick and humane method of taking small/medium sized game in the hands of a seasoned archer ,BUT,without any experience what so ever,i'm presuming that when things go slightly wrong ,as they do,one would have a much greater margin for error with a .270 or any other deer legal calibre ,that's my argument ,plain and simple !
If your going to kill something ,make it as quick and efficient as possible .
I've seen Sika run 300 yrds with their heart obliterated ,and that's with the energy transfer of a .270/.308 ,fallow seem a lot softer !
Happy hunting (whatever your weapon of choice)for 2017 lads.

Pkiernan

But one could argue that 2" wide razor sharp blade at suitable ranges is much more lethal than a projectile one tenth the diameter ;-)

Moot point however as Ireland is in the dark ages when it comes to hunting legislation.

Zxthinger

arrowloopboy wrote: »

I'm sure a bow is a perfectly quick and humane method of taking small/medium sized game in the hands of a seasoned archer ,BUT,without any experience what so ever,i'm presuming that when things go slightly wrong ,as they do,one would have a much greater margin for error with a .270 or any other deer legal calibre ,that's my argument ,plain and simple !
If your going to kill something ,make it as quick and efficient as possible .
I've seen Sika run 300 yrds with their heart obliterated ,and that's with the energy transfer of a .270/.308 ,fallow seem a lot softer !
Happy hunting (whatever your weapon of choice)for 2017 lads.

I see what your saying but I see it that both have compairable margins of error as they operate at extremely differing ranges. 300 vs 30.

Ultimately the real crux of the issue that's touted around the international scene seems to be the retrieval rates of hunted animals ( both bow and bullet shot) and it seems that studies in the USA have shown that bow hunting has a higher retrieval rate than conventual bullet shot animals. I don't have the link to he government report but such data is available to anyone that what's to really know the truth.

Zxthinger

Pkiernan wrote: »

But one could argue that 2" wide razor sharp blade at suitable ranges is much more lethal than a projectile one tenth the diameter ;-)

Moot point however as Ireland is in the dark ages when it comes to hunting legislation.

Perhaps we ars in the dark ages, but there is a reason for it. We are a nation that are ultimately conservative in our outlook. We are addicted to our opinions on preconceptions of many items.
Only truth and knowledge can change the mentalitity of the law makers.