Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

billy few mates

billy few mates wrote: »

What exactly was it you found so 'compelling' about the evidence Gerry gave in the witness box...?
I've just read it again and it's pretty damning of the man.
You can see now why the only platform that man should be given is the strict confines of a court room witness box where his obfuscation, deflection and lies can be unpicked and challenged where ha can't be allowed to control the narrative and agenda. You'd never get that in a T&R commission, all you'd get is months and months the lies and bluster that you see in the transcript except there'd be nobody able to properly challenge him, tell him to save it for his book....

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't forensically read it Billy and I have no intention of doing that. If Adams perjured himself or perverted the course of justice, I expect the court to deal with that. It didn't so I assume he didn't do either.
Did he give evidence that ensured his brother went to jail = Yes
Did he accept that he handled the issue (a difficult one for any individual) badly and wrongly? =Yes
Would I make capital out of another politician, I oppose, caught in a difficult family situation = No.

So by your own admission you haven't read the transcript, presumably because of your workload trying to keep a lid on these threads. Why don't you take a break from responding to every single post on here and take a half an hour to read the transcript, then come back and tell us what it was you found so "compelling" about his performance in the witness box instead of challenging everyone else hear to provide links to what you think might be in there?

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

No Francie you are just trying to change frequencies

You asked why are some atrocities brought up time after time and I told you why . Because those connected with those atrocities no matter how loosely ,aspire to government in this country .

The very same reason Michael Noonan will be forever linked with Mrs McCole and Lowery linked to Dunne . If you stand for public office the gloves are off - such is democracy

So the only reason they are being brought up is to stop SF getting into government, because if it was about 'victims' it should be about all victims.

Funny you mention Michael Noonan, because he is 'loosely' connected to this as well, given that his negligence as the minister responsible for prisons was 'strongly criticised' and led to the atmosphere in which this murder took place.

In 1984 the Assistant General Secretary of the Prison Officers Association, Tom Hoare strongly criticized conditions within the prison stating that staff were forced by senior management in the prison to use excessive force against prisoners. He also criticized the then Governor of Portlaoise Prison, William Reilly, and the Minister of Justice Michael Noonan stating "I accuse the minister of negligence in this area. I accuse the management of Portlaoise Prison of being indifferent to complaints. I would hate to be a prisoner making a complaint".[6] At the Prison Officers Association 1984 conference a delegate from Portlaoise Prison, Larry O'Neill, told the conference: "If Hitler wanted generals today he would find plenty of them in Portlaoise. After the war the Nazis said many of them were doing their duty and that is what the management in Portlaoise are saying today"

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

So by your own admission you haven't read the transcript, presumably because of your workload trying to keep a lid on these threads. Why don't you take a break from responding to every single post on here and take a half an hour to read the transcript, then come back and tell us what it was you found so "compelling" about his performance in the witness box instead of challenging everyone else hear to provide links to what you think might be in there?

I didn't 'forensically' read it Billy.

I found some of it compelling. But when you don't hear the tone it is hard to judge.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So the only reason they are being brought up is to stop SF getting into government, because if it was about 'victims' it should be about all victims.

Funny you mention Michael Noonan, because he is 'loosely' connected to this as well, given that his negligence as the minister responsible for prisons was 'strongly criticised' and led to the atmosphere in which this murder took place.

Are you advocating a different rule for SF Francie ? Because what ''peace process '' , what ?

If you aspire to public office your whole life history is now fair game , did you lie on a cv (as happened in Germany) , did you hold up your military achievements ( swiftboating in USA) , did you commit perjury (UK) , did you act as a frontman for the Civil Service mandarins ( Noonan) , do you know where the bodies are buried .

The treatment dished out to SF is the same in democracies the world over . Possibly their 'dirty linen ' is more potent ? Have you considered that ?

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Are you advocating a different rule for SF Francie ? Because what ''peace process '' , what ?

If you aspire to public office your whole life history is now fair game , did you lie on a cv (as happened in Germany) , did you hold up your military achievements ( swiftboating in USA) , did you commit perjury (UK) , did you act as a frontman for the Civil Service mandarins ( Noonan) , do you know where the bodies are buried .

The treatment dished out to SF is the same in democracies the world over . Possibly their 'dirty linen ' is more potent ? Have you considered that ?

That's quite wrong actually. Ireland and Britain is almost unique in not dealing with the legacy issues with a Truth recovery process.
SF, having had involvement in the conflict (they have never claimed otherwise) and are treated quite differently to like parties in other democracies that had internal conflicts.
Indeed FF and FG took quite a different approach when they emerged from the conflicts that established the state, their 'dirty linen' was suppressed by mutual agreement.

The reason there is no Truth Process here is because the 2 states have 'dirty linen' to hide. One state with a much more 'potent' laundry basket, mind you.
Tacitly, they have conspired as best they can to suppress what they did.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's quite wrong actually. Ireland and Britain is almost unique in not dealing with the legacy issues with a Truth recovery process.
SF, having had involvement in the conflict (they have never claimed otherwise) and are treated quite differently to like parties in other democracies that had internal conflicts.
Indeed FF and FG took quite a different approach when they emerged from the conflicts that established the state, their 'dirty linen' was suppressed by mutual agreement.

The reason there is no Truth Process here is because the 2 states have 'dirty linen' to hide. One state with a much more 'potent' laundry basket, mind you.
Tacitly, they have conspired as best they can to suppress what they did.

Excuse me Francie you keep trying to bring me on to this Truth and reconciliation fantasy .

That is not what we were discussing - you asked why certain 'atrocities ' were forever in the public eye - I told you - because those involved in of with knowledge of - aspire to govern this country .

And that kind of scrutiny is the price you pay - you seem to think a different rule should apply to SF .

Now we can go round round on this issue all you like , I like you have loads of time on my hands so it is no bother to me .

Now if you want a separate conversation on Truth recovery no problem - just start it off or better still open a thread on it .

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Excuse me Francie you keep trying to bring me on to this Truth and reconciliation fantasy .

That is not what we were discussing - you asked why certain 'atrocities ' were forever in the public eye - I told you - because those involved in of with knowledge of - aspire to govern this country .

And that kind of scrutiny is the price you pay - you seem to think a different rule should apply to SF .

Now we can go round round on this issue all you like , I like you have loads of time on my hands so it is no bother to me .

Now if you want a separate conversation on Truth recovery no problem - just start it off or better still open a thread on it .

Fair enough, that is your opinion.

It is my opinion that these cul de sacs of outrage are organised specifically to gain political capital, which you agree with. i.e. to stop SF getting into government.
You believe this is for some moral reason, I believe it is because the two parties who have swapped power in this country, fear the loss of that power.

We have seen them do it to other parties of the left with no connection to conflict. e.g. suddenly there is a drink driving story leaked about a TD etc.

I think all of that is a complete waste of time and scandalous exploitation of victims.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fair enough, that is your opinion.

It is my opinion that these cul de sacs of outrage are organised specifically to gain political capital, which you agree with. i.e. to stop SF getting into government.
You believe this is for some moral reason, I believe it is because the two parties who have swapped power in this country, fear the loss of that power.

We have seen them do it to other parties of the left with no connection to conflict. e.g. suddenly there is a drink driving story leaked about a TD etc.

I think all of that is a complete waste of time and scandalous exploitation of victims.

Francie you are justing posting politics 101 - every party aspires to get into power and part of doing that is keeping the other guy out . You seem to think it only applies to SF .

It applies to all parties - both dishing the dirt and receiving it

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Francie you are justing posting politics 101 - every party aspires to get into power and part of doing that is keeping the other guy out . You seem to think it only applies to SF .

It applies to all parties - both dishing the dirt and receiving it

Sorry, I don't see the same unremitting level of it coming from other parties.
Adams, at one point couldn't stand up in the Dail to represent his electors without being dragged into it. Enda gave that up mostly, as it was back firing on him.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry, I don't see the same unremitting level of it coming from other parties.
Adams, at one point couldn't stand up in the Dail to represent his electors without being dragged into it. Enda gave that up mostly, as it was back firing on him.

It might seem that way Francie as you are a supporter , but remember Bertie standing up and accusing anyone of talking even a modicum of sense of being treasonous and his supporters all cheerleading him . it all depends on what set of blinkers we have on .

Bertie is deluded enough to think he can still play a part in Irish politics , if he does rejoin FF what do you think SF are going to do ? That is after they have recovered from rolling around the floor laughing .

It is the same for all Francie , it is just there is more ammunition available on SF . Watch how MM will make damn sure Bertie doesn't even get a toe in the door.

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

It might seem that way Francie as you are a supporter , but remember Bertie standing up and accusing anyone of talking even a modicum of sense of being treasonous and his supporters all cheerleading him . it all depends on what set of blinkers we have on .

Bertie is deluded enough to think he can still play a part in Irish politics , if he does rejoin FF what do you think SF are going to do ? That is after they have recovered from rolling around the floor laughing .

It is the same for all Francie , it is just there is more ammunition available on SF . Watch how MM will make damn sure Bertie doesn't even get a toe in the door.

What victim of Bertie's will be paraded through the media?

It is entirely different, this victim exploitation, to the normal cut and thrust of politics.

.

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't 'forensically' read it Billy.

I found some of it compelling. But when you don't hear the tone it is hard to judge.

I didn't "forensically" read it either (whatever that means), I just read it...


So, which parts did you find 'compelling' and why? or was that simply just a conditioned response because it makes no sense unless you can enlighten us otherwise...?

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What victim of Bertie's will be paraded through the media?

It is entirely different, this victim exploitation, to the normal cut and thrust of politics.

.

If and when FF/FG/Lab cause people to be victims then they will be paraded through the media and endlessly raised in the Dail . I already gave you the example of Noonan and Mrs McCole and recently we had that young lady living in a hotel trying to get in to Trinity

The problem for SF is that they have given many more hostages to fortune that any other party . You might think that is unfair but that is the way it is.

Might I ask you a straight question - in your opinion would any other party leader in a western democratic state have survived as GA did after that court case ?

Anywhere else he would be gone , but you see it as a strength that he is not and can't fathom why the non committed are appalled

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

I didn't "forensically" read it either (whatever that means), I just read it...


So, which parts did you find 'compelling' and why? or was that simply just a conditioned response because it makes no sense unless you can enlighten us otherwise...?

'Parts of it' will have to do you Billy. If you note the bit in brackets in the thread title you'll understand.
If you wish to re-hash the specific detail of that, open a thread on it or find an old one and read it.

'Forensic reading'? Well if the poster found lies and attempts to pervert the course of justice they must have read it forensically.

forensic
fəˈrɛnsɪk/Submit
adjective
adjective: forensic
1.
relating to or denoting the application of scientific methods and techniques to the investigation of crime.
"forensic evidence"
2.
relating to courts of law.

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

If and when FF/FG/Lab cause people to be victims then they will be paraded through the media and endlessly raised in the Dail . I already gave you the example of Noonan and Mrs McCole and recently we had that young lady living in a hotel trying to get in to Trinity

The problem for SF is that they have given many more hostages to fortune that any other party . You might think that is unfair but that is the way it is.

Your attempts to portray the constant use of a category of victim (the victims of one side) as 'normal' or 'near to normal' is not really washing here.
I know a family whose son died as a result of the conflict who have been trying to get answers for 30 years, but have met with stone walls and NO interest from the media.
He died in the south, in the hands of the Irish security forces.
They won't get a picture with Enda on the Dail steps or a fulminating Michael Martin in the Dail, you can bet on it.

Might I ask you a straight question - in your opinion would any other party leader in a western democratic state have survived as GA did after that court case ?

Anywhere else he would be gone , but you see it as a strength that he is not and can't fathom why the non committed are appalled

I don't think it was a strength, and never said that.
I actually think I have said it here before. That was the time for him to go in my opinion.
But his party have no obvious problem with him as leader nor have the people who elected him to the Dail.
I'm a democrat, I have to respect that.

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Parts of it' will have to do you Billy. If you note the bit in brackets in the thread title you'll understand.
If you wish to re-hash the specific detail of that, open a thread on it or find an old one and read it.

'Forensic reading'? Well if the poster found lies and attempts to pervert the course of justice they must have read it forensically.

forensic
fəˈrɛnsɪk/Submit
adjective
adjective: forensic
1.
relating to or denoting the application of scientific methods and techniques to the investigation of crime.
"forensic evidence"
2.
relating to courts of law.

You don't need to read it 'forensically' as you put it, you just need to read it. Greater minds than yours and mine were involved in the exchanges that took place with Gerry while he was on the stand and if there were anything that needed to be 'forensically' analysed they, rather skilfully, succeeded in doing just that. Incidentally I can understand your reluctance in wanting to read it, I'd find it difficult to defend anyone who acted in a similar fashion in dealing with a paedophile whether they be politician, clergy or private citizen...

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

I'd find it difficult to defend anyone who acted in a similar fashion.

Yes and I have already agreed with that. If you had read the thread.
Adams agrees that he didn't handle it well either.

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes and I have already agreed with that. If you had read the thread.
Adams agrees that he didn't handle it well either.

Yet you found his evidence "compelling"

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

Yet you found his evidence "compelling"

Yes, particularly when he is trying to explain the complications of the family situation he was in.
I understand that, coming from a largish family, it can be fraught when there are disputes and tensions, trying to keep people onside and judge what the best thing to do is.
I've gotten it wrong many times.

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, particularly when he is trying to explain the complications of the family situation he was in.
I understand that, coming from a largish family, it can be fraught when there are disputes and tensions, trying to keep people onside and judge what the best thing to do is.
I've gotten it wrong many times.

Which part was that...?
Page number(s) will do.

FrancieBrady

Are you critical at all of the two governments Billy for not finding a better way of dealing with legacy issues arising from the conflict?

*It is what the thread is about and you haven't said.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your attempts to portray the constant use of a category of victim (the victims of one side) as 'normal' or 'near to normal' is not really washing here.

.

Again Francie this is not what we are talking about no matter how many times you try to shoehorn it in . You asked why are certain atrocities are brought up with monotonous regularity and I told you why - because people who have knowledge of or were party to those actions aspire to govern this country .

When those people are gone those allegations will lose their potency. You can't have it both ways.

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you critical at all of the two governments Billy for not finding a better way of dealing with legacy issues arising from the conflict?

*It is what the thread is about and you haven't said.

Oh. Is it not about about the leader of a political party obstructing an active investigation into the murder of a servant of the state to protect his political career....?

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

Which part was that...?
Page number(s) will do.

It is right through it. I particularly remember the bit where he talked about his love for his brother, and then the judge had to over rule the prosecutor who was attempting to stop him talking about the easy way out of the problem. That to me was very compelling.
When I read it the thought struck me very strongly, it would have easier on him to just lie. There was no way to prove he was lying anyway.
But he didn't.

Again it is hard to judge with no tone or facial expressions but I got a strong impression of somebody who genuinely couldn't recall all the detail clearly.

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

Oh. Is it not about about the leader of a political party obstructing an active investigation into the murder of a servant of the state to protect his political career....?

No, you really should 'read' these threads first Billy.

Here it is to refresh.

After yesterday's shennanigans, yet again, in the Dáil, has the time come when FF, FG, Labour and all other parties and independents, should be looking to ways to bring closure to what happened during the recent conflict/war that involved everybody(even those who ignored it) on this island and many beyond it, instead of single issues like the one currently in the news.

It seems to me that again and again and again there are those who only want to remember selective things that happened. Is Adams right when he says:

“If the Taoiseach and Micheál Martin are interested in healing the legacy of the past for all families, including the Stacks, the Finucane’s, the families of the Dublin Monaghan bombs and hundreds more, then they could begin by putting in place an International based independent truth recovery process,”

Eamondomc

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, you really should 'read' these threads first Billy.

Here it is to refresh.

Deal with the issue at hand here, the IRA has admitted to killing Mr Stack, a prison officer, a servant of the state here, an execution, a murder, nothing to do with the struggle whatsoever, do you not think the men responsible for this crime should be brought to justice?

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Again Francie this is not what we are talking about no matter how many times you try to shoehorn it in . You asked why are certain atrocities are brought up with monotonous regularity and I told you why - because people who have knowledge of or were party to those actions aspire to govern this country .

When those people are gone those allegations will lose their potency. You can't have it both ways.

And you are not explaining very well why it is that it is only one category of victim.

People died at the hands of security forces under the watch of the ministers for justice and defence from both parties as a result of the conflict.

We don't see Enda on the steps of the Dail with them or Michael Martin raising questions in the Dail about it.

FrancieBrady

Eamondomc wrote: »

Deal with the issue at hand here, the IRA has admitted to killing Mr Stack, a prison officer, a servant of the state here, an execution, a murder, nothing to do with the struggle whatsoever, do you not think the men responsible for this crime should be brought to justice?

I don't know what to say here, I have already answered that. Yes they should be brought to justice.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And you are not explaining very well why it is that it is only one category of victim.

People died at the hands of security forces under the watch of the ministers for justice and defence from both parties as a result of the conflict.

We don't see Enda on the steps of the Dail with them or Michael Martin raising questions in the Dail about it.

No go Francie you raised a specific, point I answered it . When and if SF get ammunition on FF/FG/Lab/ SDLP etc they will use just as ruthlessly .

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, particularly when he is trying to explain the complications of the family situation he was in.
I understand that, coming from a largish family, it can be fraught when there are disputes and tensions, trying to keep people onside and judge what the best thing to do is.
I've gotten it wrong many times.

Ah seriously!!
Anyone that defends abusers against children need the full force Of The law thrown at them.
If your brother raped a child do you think you would cover it up?
The victim always comes first. (should )
In all cases actually