Elocution Lessons?

mighty magpie

saying tree as a number is definitely incorrect

LLMMLL

zoobizoo wrote: »

I think it's useful to differentiate between Accent and Diction.

There's no problem having an accent - we all have one.

There is a problem if you are not pronouncing words correctly.

Nah you've just created an artificial distinction between accent and diction. For example, people with a d4 type accent will pronounce "go" closer to "goo". People just think of it as their local accent. How is it any different from someone saying "tree"instead of "three"?

The main issue here is that people are raised to believe there is a correct way of speaking in their own language. The bias can be shown by considering another language.

So in most parts of Spain people pronounce z's as th's. So a well educated person from Madrid will pronounce "Zapata" as "thapata". However South american spanish speakers would pronounce a z as we would. So who's "right" an who's "wrong"?

The answer is neither are "wrong". Both are local accents. And and english speaker who says "three" is using a local accent just as much as the english speaker who says "tree".

InTheTrees

My old dad used to say if you aren't pronouncing it as per the Oxford English Dictionary then it isn't "correct".

We'd argue about it a lot, but as I get older I see his point.

zoobizoo

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nah you've just created an artificial distinction between accent and diction. For example, people with a d4 type accent will pronounce "go" closer to "goo". People just think of it as their local accent. How is it any different from someone saying "tree"instead of "three"?
.

I seen what you done dere.....

In answer to your question, it is spelt with a 'th' which has a correct way of being pronounced.

mighty magpie

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nah you've just created an artificial distinction between accent and diction. For example, people with a d4 type accent will pronounce "go" closer to "goo". People just think of it as their local accent. How is it any different from someone saying "tree"instead of "three"?

The main issue here is that people are raised to believe there is a correct way of speaking in their own language. The bias can be shown by considering another language.

So in most parts of Spain people pronounce z's as th's. So a well educated person from Madrid will pronounce "Zapata" as "thapata". However South american spanish speakers would pronounce a z as we would. So who's "right" an who's "wrong"?

The answer is neither are "wrong". Both are local accents. And and english speaker who says "three" is using a local accent just as much as the english speaker who says "tree".

A local accent saying tree is only correct if describing or talking about a brown thing with leaves, not a number.

Please stop this idea of enabling people not being able to speak correctly.

Big Bag of Chips

LLMMLL, your argument is pointless to the OP, in that she posted with a problem that is affecting her daily life (I think she said she is not based in Ireland, where people might be more inclined to have their ear tuned to different dialects and be able to clearly understand her even if she doesn't pronounce it perfectly) and she asked for advice on ways to address this.

Your posts of "there's nothing wrong with you and everyone else is wrong" are doing nothing to address the issue she actually posted on. It's lovely that you think she shouldn't be bothered about whether or not other people can understand her, but she is bothered and she specifically asked how to go about fixing it. Whether or not you believe it is a problem is irrelevant. It's a problem for the OP.

LLMMLL

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

LLMMLL, your argument is pointless to the OP, in that she posted with a problem that is affecting her daily life (I think she said she is not based in Ireland, where people might be more inclined to have their ear tuned to different dialects and be able to clearly understand her even if she doesn't pronounce it perfectly) and she asked for advice on ways to address this.

Your posts of "there's nothing wrong with you and everyone else is wrong" are doing nothing to address the issue she actually posted on. It's lovely that you think she shouldn't be bothered about whether or not other people can understand her, but she is bothered and she specifically asked how to go about fixing it. Whether or not you believe it is a problem is irrelevant. It's a problem for the OP.

I really don't think it's irrelevant to her problem. As I've said if she wants to change it for practical reasons that's absolutely fine.

But I think it would be bad for the OP to think there's been something lackin in her education or upbringing and therefore may feel inferior to people with a more acceptable accent. I personally think it would be good for her self confidence to realise there's notiing inherently wrong with the way she speaks even if he does decide to change it to make her life easier.

LLMMLL

zoobizoo wrote: »

I seen what you done dere.....

In answer to your question, it is spelt with a 'th' which has a correct way of being pronounced.

It doesn't matter how it's "spelt". That's a writing convention. Language has been around for a LOT longer than writing. Writing is completely 100% irrelevant to whether people speak correct English or not.

The truth is that all native speakers who do not have brain damage and who aren't distracted midsentence speak perfect English. No matter what the uneducated snobs think.

Big Bag of Chips

LLMMLL wrote: »

But I think it would be bad for the OP to think there's been something lackin in her education or upbringing and therefore may feel inferior to people with a more acceptable accent.

I've reread her posts and I really don't think that's what she thinks! She is stressed by the fact that she doesn't pronounce her own name in a way that people can understand her. It is something that is causing her stress, but is very easily addressed. She's not talking about her accent, in fact she says

Aidia wrote: »

just to add I actually want to keep my accent but I just want to be able to pronounce things properly and not have any remarks!

InTheTrees

LLMMLL wrote: »

The truth is that all native speakers who do not have brain damage and who aren't distracted midsentence speak perfect English.

So can i tell people I speak perfect french then?

Although i dont see why you have something against the "brain damaged" people.

LLMMLL

InTheTrees wrote: »

So can i tell people I speak perfect french then?

Although i dont see why you have something against the "brain damaged" people.

If you were raise by French speakers in France then you would almost certainly speak perfect French.

People with certain types of brain damage don't always follow the language rules they internalised as a child. They make clear mistakes. It's completely different from people in a certain area using slightly different rules which are perfectly correct but assumed by people who don't understand linguistics to be incorrect.

LegacyUser

Hi Aidia. I don't have any advice for you but I felt I had to say something. This thread has given me food for thought. There are times when I don't speak clearly enough. I have lost count how many times I have had people mis-hear what I've said or asked me to repeat things. I sometimes have to consciously make an effort to pronounce things properly and I sound all robotic like Conor McGregor.

This thread has made me decide to go look for elocution lessons. Like you, I don't want to lose my accent. I believe there is nothing wrong with a regional accent as long as people can understand what is being said. I feel embarrassed and frustrated when people can't make out what I'm saying and I think it makes me mumble and pronounce my words even more unclearly. So in the new year I'm going to go find some of these lessons myself.

Martin567

blairbear wrote: »

I really disagree with the argument that any colloquial pronunciation is acceptable or inherently correct, merely by dint of the fact it is widely used.

By that logic, the now ubiquitous use of "could of/would of/should of" instead of "could've/would've etc" is good English, as so many people have a poor grasp of grammar and mistakenly use these nonsensical phrases.

The inability to pronounce your 'th's is something that can be corrected, as other posters have pointed out and the OP should be encouraged in wanting to speak well. It sounds far more educated and polished. I find it very difficult to listen to "tree" instead of three etc.

OP, I would certainly try to find elocution lessons to attend or the equivalent online tutorials. Record yourself speaking on your phone and compare this to someone who would be universally regarded as well-spoken, e.g. a newsreader.

I've always found it interesting how some people get so annoyed about other people not pronouncing 'th' correctly while many of these same people don't pronounce the 'wh' sound at all. 'Wen, 'wy', 'wat', 'weels', etc, all sound incorrect to me. No distinction is made between 'Wales' & 'Whales'.

The point is that many English speaking countries have completely lost the 'wh' sound over time and some of these people will claim that their way of pronouncing that sound is 'correct' simply because that's how they say it.

I know that doesn't help the OP and their specific issue but on the wider scale, I think LLMMLL makes a very good point.

Aidia

High School Reunion wrote: »

Hi Aidia. I don't have any advice for you but I felt I had to say something. This thread has given me food for thought. There are times when I don't speak clearly enough. I have lost count how many times I have had people mis-hear what I've said or asked me to repeat things. I sometimes have to consciously make an effort to pronounce things properly and I sound all robotic like Conor McGregor.

This thread has made me decide to go look for elocution lessons. Like you, I don't want to lose my accent. I believe there is nothing wrong with a regional accent as long as people can understand what is being said. I feel embarrassed and frustrated when people can't make out what I'm saying and I think it makes me mumble and pronounce my words even more unclearly. So in the new year I'm going to go find some of these lessons myself.

Hi High School Reunion - just had to comment on this and say well done to you. I understand completely getting frustrated and having to repeat yourself so I know exactly how you feel. I think both of us can agree that we are not doing it for anyone else but just to make it easier to communicate with people! I really hope it goes well for you.

Also can I just say to everyone else, I honestly did not expect the amount of replies when I posted my initial post so thank you for all your advice and comments. 

I think I will do some sort of public speaking just to gain more confidence and speak more confidently/clearer however since I've posted I've started to pay attention to how I say certain things and even making that bit more effort and it may all be in my head but haven't had the usual 'what?' following my name. I think maybe I had been stressing over it so much that this made saying it even worse and now that I'm just going with it, it seems to be coming out easier. I'm still going to make an effort to make myself clearer but not going to try and stress about it anymore.

Also re the colleague teasing me - she made another joke about something (toilet humour) that I honestly didn't find funny so didn't make any comment but I think my face said it all. She picked up on that and said it back to another colleague that I wasn't impressed with her joke so think after that she might avoid making any 'jokes' about my accent. Win win for me!

spottybananas

Funnily enough there's a new baby I know called Beth with a relative from the Midlands who cannot say Beth, he says "Beh" There are no t's where he's from apparently, I've heard "Sa-urr-day" and "tra-urrr" (tractor unbelievably), his best attempt is to say Bet. Definitely practice the tip about tongue placement when saying th's.

I lived abroad for a while and had to alter my accent slightly to be understood, I had to change to a softer t/d sound in water and butter and other slight things that my Irish friends and family found hilarious

kaji

I didn't realise that 'th' was a different pronounciation to 't' until I was well into my 20s. I struggled with trying to correct myself for years afterwards. I know it's an Irish thing to pronounce 'th' as a hard 't', but I was doing it even more so than the average person. I was annoyed that my parents never picked up on it, because they don't pronounce it like I do. But don't worry Beth, if you speak more slowly when pronouncing your name, people will hear it properly. You could even say that you're Betty, but Beth for short. That will help ease your nerves while you master introducing yourself clearly. Don't be worried, there's nothing wrong with you. Don't give yourself a hard time over it. If people make fun of your pronounciation, reply with "It's called an Irish accent, deal with it".