Put a ring on it?

Wall nuts

Engaged, have kids together and are due to get married. In the last few years we are constantly unhappy and fighting. I think we'd split up except for the kids. We're getting married mainly because of the kids and to save money on taxation (she doesn't work so my income tax gets screwed). I have some assets which I want to protect for myself the kids in the future because she is irresponsible with money. Any advice? Are we crazy?

goz83

If you're miserable and fighting, getting married is not a good idea, if only for the sake of tax credits. Get some counselling and go from there.

enzo roco

Reading that, doesnt sound like love to me.

I think you need to have a big long chat with your girlfriend.

Would getting married make you happy???

whoopsadoodles

The fact that you chose to post in this forum, as opposed to the wedding forum, honestly answers your question.

Advbrd

Wall nuts wrote: »

Engaged, have kids together and are due to get married. In the last few years we are constantly unhappy and fighting. I think we'd split up except for the kids. We're getting married mainly because of the kids and to save money on taxation (she doesn't work so my income tax gets screwed). I have some assets which I want to protect for myself the kids in the future because she is irresponsible with money. Any advice? Are we crazy?

I doubt getting married will do the above. Does she not automatically have joint ownership of all assets post marriage. She probably has a claim on them now if you are living together and have kids together. Anyway, the two of you need to talk this out and decide the best path forward.

myshirt

Do not get married if you are unhappy to that extent.

As to the matter of your assets, pre-nups are not legal in this country. Unmarried or married your lady is entitled to her share of the marriage/relationship assets and maintenance from you if you part ways (along with maintenance for your kids, which was always the case)

You could be anything up to 30-40% of your take home pay in the hole for the next 10 years, deducted at source, just like tax. That's how it works.

Read a bit about cohabitation redress and look up a few cases
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/redress_scheme_for_cohabiting_couples.html

FortySeven

You will lose any fight that ends up in court. Try and fix your relationship. Take it seriously and don't try to make it about winning.

You have a lot more to lose in a separation. If you are determined to break up have a Google for Joe Egan. He can advise you best on the potential horrors ahead.

ahnowbrowncow

Tbh I'd see a solicitor about protecting your assets, even if you don't get married.

And I definitely wouldn't get married, from reading your message it sounds like it'll end in disaster.

Billy86

Wall nuts wrote: »

I think we'd split up except for the kids.

Don't do this, they're the ones you're damaging most by not splitting up if it's as bad as you say it is.

anewme

I broke up with my partner when we were engaged and living together, no kids.
I was entitled to half of everything legally. I only wanted what I put in and he disputed that. I took what I put in and was left with 8,000 legal fees(he probably had around the same). And that was 16 years ago!!!

myshirt

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Tbh I'd see a solicitor about protecting your assets, even if you don't get married.

And I definitely wouldn't get married, from reading your message it sounds like it'll end in disaster.

Good advice.

Op, remember this is just an internet forum with a lot of responses just pulled from the air or copied and pasted directly from a Google search by someone who thinks 'oh I'll just google this" and that they then know what they are talking about. They don't. And they likely never will.

Professional advice specific to your case is always good money spent, but make no mistake the practical reality has the general trajectory as I outlined, but sit down with a solicitor and sweat the details. There are a few workarounds here that a smart solicitor will know to mitigate the impact for you, and that no Google merchant will be able to tell you, so go for it.

I am sorry to hear your relationship is this unhappy, you probably have some great kids that you care for deeply no doubt. Best wishes with it all.

myshirt

FortySeven wrote: »

You will lose any fight that ends up in court. Try and fix your relationship. Take it seriously and don't try to make it about winning.

You have a lot more to lose in a separation. If you are determined to break up have a Google for Joe Egan. He can advise you best on the potential horrors ahead.

That's a conversation for another forum isn't it. How come we never hear the feminists going on about this. Fathers matter, but consistently fathers seem to get a bad shake in front of the arms of justice, particularly poorer and less educated fathers, for some strange reason.

Just like we were not allowed cry when Lassie died at the end of the film, we are told to man up to it when you are parted from the kids. Outright endemic discrimination against men. Where is the support network for men? Where is this Facebook First response team for men? (You know the ones, the 'you ok hun x x x' guys)

Dial Hard

anewme wrote:

I broke up with my partner when we were engaged and living together, no kids. I was entitled to half of everything legally.

Not sure who gave you that advice but it was wrong 16 years ago and it's wrong now. There is absolutely zero provision in Irish law for an entitlement to half of anything in a relationship breakdown.

OP, you would be absolutely insane to get married to your partner just for her tax credits. Marriage is an incredibly powerful institution in Irish law, it enjoys constitutional protection. Why would you want to enter into such a contract with a woman you don't seem to even like very much?

It sounds like you already fall under the auspicesof the Cohabitation Bill so I'd be seeing a solicitor if I were you, not planning a wedding.

FortySeven

myshirt wrote: »

That's a conversation for another forum isn't it. How come we never hear the feminists going on about this. Fathers matter, but consistently fathers seem to get a bad shake in front of the arms of justice, particularly poorer and less educated fathers, for some strange reason.

Just like we were not allowed cry when Lassie died at the end of the film, we are told to man up to it when you are parted from the kids.

I thought I worded that carefully. I just hear fighting couple and thinking of separation. That makes me think it will not be amicable. A determined woman will make mincemeat of a man in family court. It's just the way it works.

Hence the advise to try and take counselling serious. Try to make it work.

If not, take advise and be ready. Most have no idea what justice in Ireland means.

There is a reason there are no women's groups fighting for justice in family law. That speaks volumes really.

Taltos

Mod Note
Thread has been moved to PI/RI as this is not an S&D thread.
For anyone who has followed this thread across please read the local forum charter before you post. PI/RI has strict standards due to the issues posted here.

Thanks.

anewme

Dial Hard wrote: »

Not sure who gave you that advice but it was wrong 16 years ago and it's wrong now. There is absolutely zero provision in Irish law for an entitlement to half of anything in a relationship breakdown.

Msybe I did not make my own position clear. I was speaking about my own situation.

The advices came from my Barrister and Solicitor and related to the assets (which were in joint names, joint bank accounts) we were earning similar. It was correct advice..

Property of Engaged Couples
Under Section 44 of the Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996 disputes about property between a couple whose engagement has ended are treated in the same way as disputes between a married couple who are separating or divorcing. This only applies to property in which either or both of them had a beneficial interest while they were engaged. It does not apply to property acquired after the engagement ended.

Based on my circumstances, I was legally entitled to half of everything ( in our joint names)

The point to OP is that engaged couples have a different legal entitlement than those simply co habiting.

LegacyUser

You're getting cold feet because of the fights. Sit down and explain to her it's not healthy for you both or kids to be fighting all the time. Set about getting to the root of what is causing the rows. Face up to it instead of running from it. And yes that takes a long hard look at yourself with total honesty and seeing where you are going wrong. You both have to do this. Tell her you can't get married until this bad cycle stops and is fixed. It takes work and time. Don't take the easy way out BEFORE doing the work. You have to nurture good habits and from that wil stem happiness. Don't walk away until you are sure you have done everything you possibly can and you won't regret it then.

L1985

But if they are married would that not give him more rights over his kids than an unmarried father?being cynical I know but protecting those rights is so important as well!!

FortySeven

L1985 wrote: »

But if they are married would that not give him more rights over his kids than an unmarried father?being cynical I know but protecting those rights is so important as well!!

Yes. He would gain automatic joint custody which is very, very beneficial when it comes to access.

Not really a reason to get married but certainly a benefit.

I'm not recommending it, it would take a large dose of cynicism to make such a decision. The fallout would be epic in any extended family.

December2012

First stop is relationship counseling. Whether or not you proceed with the marriage or not, you have a duty to your children to try your best to get along appropriately with their mother

Loveinapril

L1985 wrote: »

But if they are married would that not give him more rights over his kids than an unmarried father?being cynical I know but protecting those rights is so important as well!!

The law would recognise him as a gaurdian if he has lived with the mother for 12 months or over so marriage wouldn't change his parental rights.

Big Bag of Chips

Do you see any hope for your relationship at all, OP. I know you posted this first in Separation and Divorce which obviously is a bad sign for someone not even married yet. Have you any interest in salvaging your relationship? Relationship counselling could help you both. It can help you decide what next. It might bring you back together as a couple, or it can also help you to separate amicably, keeping your children as the main focus.

I think before any more plans towards marriage are made, counselling for you both has to be a priority. You are doing your children a huge disservice if you both just carry on regardless.

Wall nuts

Yes, I think there is some hope. We'll try and get to a counseller soon and hopefully that will help our relationship. I guess I always thought of that as a last ditch effort during a seperation. Thanks everybody for the advice.

FortySeven

Loveinapril wrote: »

The law would recognise him as a gaurdian if he has lived with the mother for 12 months or over so marriage wouldn't change his parental rights.

Guardianship has nothing at all to do with custody or access. Guardianship is just recognition of parenthood and a supposed say in important decisions such as what schools, religion etc. The enforcement of these rights if the children reside with the mother is a waste of time.

Guardianship does not allow you to see the children if she won't let you. (Quite common in non amicable separations) If you are married, joint custody means you can have the children half of the time. Custody is much more enforceable in law.

Unmarried fathers apply for the right of access to their child. If the mother decides to go against this court decision she can be brought before a judge and made to attend a parenting class.

Maintenance will be awarded and non payment means prison. No ifs, no buts. Payment does not grant nor guarentee any of the above rights.

Ursus Horribilis

I know you want to do your best by your kids but please try to explore every other option before you go for the marriage one. Staying together for the kids and/or marrying is not the only game in town. I also think you should quietly go speak to a solicitor and get solid legal advice from someone who knows what they're talking about. You've got two big issues here you need to have checked out. Your access to the children and what your fiancée is entitled to. Good luck!

anewme

I'm going to be the dissenter here. Despite being in the relationship years , when the marriage issue was being forced, I knew enough to say, no it's not for me, I can't do this I'm sinking here.

I know I'd no children, but I still walked away from financial security and a lovely home in a great area wth 10 pounds and a dog on a lead to start again.

absolutely Zero in the way of regrets 15 years later.

Also as someone who grew up in a home where my parents hated each other's guts but stayed due to it not being the done thing, the neighbours, etc together, it would have been better to grow up with them separated(which they eventually did anyway). The guards were always at our house and the 2 kids did know what it was like to be a couple. The negativity iin my parents relationship has had a profound effect on me. They would have been better aoart.

Good luck Op- please listen to your gut instinct on this as well.

amtc

You also need tax advice.

Wall nuts

amtc wrote: »

You also need tax advice.

Anyone have any advice/experience with this? At the moment I'm the only earner supporting the entire household but am taxed as a single person. The difference if we are married is approx. 10% of my net pay. That is not to be sneezed at when we are so broke already! I know it's small money compared to maintenance fees after seperation. However, maintenance payments would be to the kids and their mother, not the taxman - big difference.

Dial Hard

Wall nuts wrote:

Anyone have any advice/experience with this? At the moment I'm the only earner supporting the entire household but am taxed as a single person. The difference if we are married is approx. 10% of my net pay. That is not to be sneezed at when we are so broke already! I know it's small money compared to maintenance fees after seperation. However, maintenance payments would be to the kids and their mother, not the taxman - big difference.

Yes, and you'd still be making those payments out of a single salary. I really don't see the logic there, sorry.

Wall nuts

dee345 wrote: »

You're getting cold feet because of the fights. Sit down and explain to her it's not healthy for you both or kids to be fighting all the time. Set about getting to the root of what is causing the rows. Face up to it instead of running from it. And yes that takes a long hard look at yourself with total honesty and seeing where you are going wrong. You both have to do this. Tell her you can't get married until this bad cycle stops and is fixed. It takes work and time. Don't take the easy way out BEFORE doing the work. You have to nurture good habits and from that wil stem happiness. Don't walk away until you are sure you have done everything you possibly can and you won't regret it then.

I really appreciate this advice. Getting "cold feet" due to the fights and moods yet not going for couples counselling as a first point of call seems rediculous now - I think I was unwilling to admit this fact to myself before this thread.

Ave Sodalis

As for assets OP, I know very little about so won't pretend to.
However, in terms of your relationship, do not get married as it is. If you cannot get counselling, or it doesn't work, leave. You may think you're doing your children a favour by staying together but the people getting hurt most by your fights are not yourself and your partner. Seperated parents is a little bit crappy. Parents who are constantly fighting can leave behind some very damaged children in some cases.

Wall nuts

Dial Hard wrote: »

Yes, and you'd still be making those payments out of a single salary. I really don't see the logic there, sorry.

Don't apologise - all advice welcome. I'd rather see my money go to the kids and their mother than on tax (even if I differ with her on how it is spent). My understanding is that taxation of maintenance payments after a divorce can be tax-free.

Ursus Horribilis

My understanding is that if you marry, your wife is entitled to every asset you have. You'd need to check that with a solicitor though because I am just a random punter.

I agree with the people who have mentioned the damage fighting parents do to their kids. One of my best friends grew up in a home where the parents stayed together for the sake of the kids. They only split once the youngest one had finished his leaving cert. By then, the damage was done. All three of them are in their thirties and forties now and single. To the best of my knowledge, not one of them has had a happy or lasting relationship. Now this is only one example but it is something you should bear in mind. Children are not stupid. They see and sense far more than adults give them credit for. They pick up on the vibes, they absorb everything, they build this behaviour into their understanding of what relationships entail. The right thing is not always the right thing.

fineso.mom

Wall nuts wrote: »

I really appreciate this advice. Getting "cold feet" due to the fights and moods yet not going for couples counselling as a first point of call seems rediculous now - I think I was unwilling to admit this fact to myself before this thread.

I would agree with counselling also. The mistake a lot of people make is waiting until there are huge problems and then going for help. Unfortunately, by then, there can be so much anger and resentment built up between a couple that its too late to fix the problem.
My brother and sister in law have been married for 20 odd years. They went for counselling after two years of marriage because of some issues that were causing tension. They wanted to nip it in the bud and sort it out and they did. They are a strong couple and to this day will say that counselling and acknowleding problems head on is what helped them have the bond they have.

FortySeven

Wall nuts wrote: »

Anyone have any advice/experience with this? At the moment I'm the only earner supporting the entire household but am taxed as a single person. The difference if we are married is approx. 10% of my net pay. That is not to be sneezed at when we are so broke already! I know it's small money compared to maintenance fees after seperation. However, maintenance payments would be to the kids and their mother, not the taxman - big difference.

Maintenance can leave you in a horrible situation. I'm wary of going too much into specifics as I am on a final warning in this particular forum but I think I am offering the advice you seek so here goes.

You can be left paying maintenance at such a level that you cannot afford to rent somewhere for yourself. If you go to mcdonalds on a weekend then you will see the phenomenon that is the 'mcdonalds dad'.

With a large chunk of your salary going towards the mortgage or rent for your ex to reside in with the children you are left renting a room in a shared house. This means NO overnights for the children as the accommodation is deemed unsuitable. You are left trying to entertain your children as best you can on access which is generally at the weekend. I have done this myself, trust me, trying to entertain two children for 8 hours on a Sunday is a very expensive proposition indeed. Hence Mcdonalds.

I can't even go there at the weekend any more. I find this so depressing to see.

If you are broke now consider adding another rent, another electricity bill, another tv licence etc. It is not easy and it is a real incentive for YOU to try and make it work. I can't stress this enough, your partner has very little to lose and more likely will gain from any court contested separation. You really, really have to try and use counseling and try to sort your issues if possible.

This is just an idea of a best case scenario by the way. If separation angers your partner even more then the outcome can get much worse very quickly.

Family court is brutal for men. If you are going to separate then I would strongly advise you seek legal representation before making any move. You have a hell of a lot to lose and absolutely nothing to gain when it comes to finances and the children.

anewme

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

. One of my best friends grew up in a home where the parents stayed together for the sake of the kids. They only split once the youngest one had finished his leaving cert. By then, the damage was done. All three of them are in their thirties and forties now and single. To the best of my knowledge, not one of them has had a happy or lasting relationship. Now this is only one example but it is something you should bear in mind. Children are not stupid. They see and sense far more than adults give them credit.

This was exactly our house. There were only 2 of us, My sister ended up getting married and having a lovely family but me, being older, was exposed to a lot more of the fighting and negativity and grew up too soon.

So I'm left a spinster with a load of cats!(joke).

All joking aside, while I have a great and very happy life, I've no doubt my views on marriage and relationships and probably over-independence are because of my parents toxic relationship.

Colser

OP would you ring citizens advice and they may be able to clarify some details for you ,I think they have legal advice available at certain times also but I'm not certain of that.

In relation to getting married I'd say forget it at the moment as it could leave you in a worse situation if it didn't work out.

Are you sure that you're claiming for everything tax wise..would you be entitled to FIS or any other allowance?

amtc

I'very been in two minds whether or not to post in this. I' m 43 and grew up where I was the intermediary between my parents. They went months and years without speaking. It was always me told to tell your mam or tell your dad.

It is only this year and it seems so simple but I didn't know couples were supposed to look in the same direction. My parents don't do anything together. My dad said to me yesterday that they are both miserable. I am absolutely dreading Christmas.

And yes has totally affected my view of relationships. I either hold back or invest too much. I tend to go for unavailable nice men. I am getting a cat!

In your case, try counselling. But don't get married for financial reasons.