Six Nations bonus point system in 2017

phog

I normally wouldn't be in favour of BPs in the 6Ns but the additional 3 BPs for 5 wins at least makes it easier to accept the trial.

molloyjh

Thinking about the bonus point idea further I think this puts the outcome of the tournament even more in the hands of the scheduling.

As it stood scheduling impacted in terms of points difference which meant that teams with 3 home games had an advantage. So it has always been a bit of a lob sided tournament in that regard. However the PD thing will still stand in the new format. So this remains regardless.

What they are now introducing is a system that weights the outcome in favour of certain teams even more. Wales and Ireland would have an advantage in the even years with Scotland and Italy at home as well as 1 of the other 3 at home. England would have that advantage on the odd years. France on the other hand don't have any year with both Scotland and Italy at home so would never have that advantage. So the way the tournament schedules the home and away fixture element leads to an even greater unbalance than ever before.

Now take Wales for example. They tend to start slow and get better as the tournament progresses. Italy on the other had are the polar opposite. In 2015 Italy were at home to Wales in Round 1. In 2017 they'll be at home to Wales in Round 5. You would expect Wales to win that fixture regardless of when it was on, however in the above examples you would imagine they'd get the TBP in Round 5, but not Round 1. Therefore the very same fixture would see 4 points in 2015 and 5 in 2017. So now the actual order of the fixtures in a given year can have a fairly large impact on the outcome too.

For me this gives the actual scheduling far too much of an impact on the overall outcome of each individual tournament. As others have said, let's see how it goes, but I don't think it's a great idea tbh.

y0ssar1an22

you could end up with a situation that a team A loses all matches and gets 5 x 2 bonus points = 10 points.

team B that wins 2 matches with no bonus points would end with 8 points.

doesn't seem fair to me. they need to put more thought into this before implementation.

Edit: team b would need to get a try bonus for beating team team a, allowing team A their loosing bonus point. Team B then ends up with 9 points.
Team A still finished ahead of Team B, even though its 0 wins vs 2 wins

ClanofLams

Awful idea. Most entertaining day of 6N rugby I can remember was last day in 2014 with Wales, Ireland & England all gunning for the title. Will never happen again were this system implemented permanently.

Along with the scheduling issues already mentioned.

swiwi_

The next step is to move the start of the tournament to March. Change is at snails pace for the auld home unions but at least it's a start.

CMOTDibbler

Just ran the numbers past the last couple of years' 6N and it makes no difference at all to the winner, but reverses the last two positions from 2015.

2016|W|D|L|Pts|New|BP|Tot
England|5|0|0|10|20|4|24
Wales|3|1|1|7|14|2|16
Ireland|2|1|2|5|10|3|13
Scotland|2|0|3|4|8|2|10
France|2|0|3|4|8|0|8
Italy|0|0|5|0|0|1|1


2015|W|D|L|Pts|New|BP|Tot
Ireland|4|0|1|8|16|2|18
England|4|0|1|8|16|2|18
Wales|4|0|1|8|16|2|18
France|2|0|3|4|8|2|10
Italy|1|0|4|2|4|0|6
Scotland|0|0|5|0|0|3|3

ClanofLams

I don't even get what aim it is meant to further. Any team with designs on winning the championship is already well aware of the importance of points difference and is scoring as much as possible.

swiwi_

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Just ran the numbers past the last couple of years' 6N and it makes no difference at all to the winner, but reverses the last two positions from 2015.

2016|W|D|L|Pts|BP|Tot
England|5|0|0|10|4|14
Wales|3|1|1|7|2|9
Ireland|2|1|2|5|3|8
Scotland|2|0|3|4|2|6
France|2|0|3|4|0|4
Italy|0|0|5|0|1|1


2015|W|D|L|Pts|BP|Tot
Ireland|4|0|1|8|2|10
England|4|0|1|8|2|10
Wales|4|0|1|8|2|10
France|2|0|3|4|2|6
Italy|1|0|4|2|0|2
Scotland|0|0|5|0|3|3

This assumes teams would have played the same way whichever of the 2 systems in place. Just saying.

irishbucsfan

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Just ran the numbers past the last couple of years' 6N and it makes no difference at all to the winner, but reverses the last two positions from 2015.

2016|W|D|L|Pts|BP|Tot
England|5|0|0|10|4|14
Wales|3|1|1|7|2|9
Ireland|2|1|2|5|3|8
Scotland|2|0|3|4|2|6
France|2|0|3|4|0|4
Italy|0|0|5|0|1|1


2015|W|D|L|Pts|BP|Tot
Ireland|4|0|1|8|2|10
England|4|0|1|8|2|10
Wales|4|0|1|8|2|10
France|2|0|3|4|2|6
Italy|1|0|4|2|0|2
Scotland|0|0|5|0|3|3

Surely that's incorrect... 4 points for winning a match now?

Buer

ClanofLams wrote: »

I don't even get what aim it is meant to further. Any team with designs on winning the championship is already well aware of the importance of points difference and is scoring as much as possible.

I'd disagree. The approach is extremely conservative. You saw Ireland kicking to the corner repeatedly in the past month to try and score tries to get a good tally up on the board against NZ because they knew they'd need to score at least 25 points to beat them.

In the 6N, we'd never do that. We scored one try against Wales this year, none against France and one against England. It was as cagey as possible, trying to pick off points and get our noses in front. I've no problem with that and it's smart play but it's not enjoyable for the neutral just like England beating Scotland 15-9 was painful watching for us.

ClanofLams

Buer wrote: »

I'd disagree. The approach is extremely conservative. You saw Ireland kicking to the corner repeatedly in the past month to try and score tries to get a good tally up on the board against NZ because they knew they'd need to score at least 25 points to beat them.

In the 6N, we'd never do that. We scored one try against Wales this year, none against France and one against England. It was as cagey as possible, trying to pick off points and get our noses in front. I've no problem with that and it's smart play but it's not enjoyable for the neutral just like England beating Scotland 15-9 was painful watching for us.

It's the nature of the teams rather than the structure of the tournament. You still see 12-9/9-6 on a regular basis in the European Cup. Teams are still going to prioritise wins. This just imbalances the tournament further.

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

I don't even get what aim it is meant to further. Any team with designs on winning the championship is already well aware of the importance of points difference and is scoring as much as possible.

I don't know if that's always the case. Everyone knows that the only sure way of winning is to slam it. Now that's not always acheivable and if you lose an early game, you're then chasing points. But keeping the wins going is the primary objective and winning pretty or ugly won't matter as long as you win.

vienne86

Silly idea, I think, because of the home/away business. I think it would only work with Thomond's idea of running the points gathering over two years.

I'm not convinced that it will encourage try scoring - points difference already encourages that.

ClanofLams

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Just ran the numbers past the last couple of years' 6N and it makes no difference at all to the winner, but reverses the last two positions from 2015.

2016|W|D|L|Pts|BP|Tot
England|5|0|0|10|4|14
Wales|3|1|1|7|2|9
Ireland|2|1|2|5|3|8
Scotland|2|0|3|4|2|6
France|2|0|3|4|0|4
Italy|0|0|5|0|1|1


2015|W|D|L|Pts|BP|Tot
Ireland|4|0|1|8|2|10
England|4|0|1|8|2|10
Wales|4|0|1|8|2|10
France|2|0|3|4|2|6
Italy|1|0|4|2|0|2
Scotland|0|0|5|0|3|3

For the sake of correctness, England would have finished on 17 last year with three point bonus for grand slam.

ArmaniJeanss

awec wrote: »

Going to be incredibly difficult for Ireland to win a six nations in the years they have France and England at home now.

No-one has ever explained to me why all 6 teams have to be on the current rotation for ever.
Surely it should be redrawn every two years such that next time we could be on something novel like England and Wales at home with Scotland, France and Italy away, reversed the following year obviously. And then redrawn again for the next two years.

Riskymove

phog wrote: »

I normally wouldn't be in favour of BPs in the 6Ns but the additional 3 BPs for 5 wins at least makes it easier to accept the trial.

same here

I couldn't agree to a system that meant you could win a grand slam yet not be champions

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Surely that's incorrect... 4 points for winning a match now?

There's always a pedant

Revised table now carries a revised points column and now it makes no difference at all. At all. At all...

I don't know if teams would play differently. Certainly in leagues and tournaments, the BP becomes a factor when the win is looking likely and there are already a couple of tries in the bag with time on the clock.

But tighter games will just not yield them. The real effect would be on the losing team fighting to get the losing bonus point imo. And with a win being worth 4 and only five games in the championship, I'm not sure what value it actually would have. Theoretically, you could generate an extra 5 points by winning four matches with TBPs and lose one with a LBP, but how likely is that?

CMOTDibbler

ClanofLams wrote: »

For the sake of correctness, England would have finished on 17 last year with three point bonus for grand slam.

That's added in there in the BPs.

THe table has been revised again anyway because I didn't include the new points for wins and draws.

awec

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

No-one has ever explained to me why all 6 teams have to be on the current rotation for ever.
Surely it should be redrawn every two years such that next time we could be on something novel like England and Wales at home with Scotland, France and Italy away, reversed the following year obviously. And then redrawn again for the next two years.

I guess the unions don't want the situation where they play the same team away two years in a row.

The IRFU might be miffed for example if they don't have England ticket income for two years running.

PTH2009

Ah let's see how it goes in 2017, really think it should of been introduced in 2018 so they could research it more ??

Could be the making of sum classic games

Riskymove

molloyjh wrote: »

What they are now introducing is a system that weights the outcome in favour of certain teams even more. Wales and Ireland would have an advantage in the even years with Scotland and Italy at home as well as 1 of the other 3 at home.

TBH as the extra home game is Italy I am not sure it is a huge advantage. The better teams would probably be targeting to beat Italy home or away


EDIT: Also, many view the odd years where Ireland are home twice to France and England but have 3 away games as being better chance of success

ArmaniJeanss

awec wrote: »

I guess the unions don't want the situation where they play the same team away two years in a row.

The IRFU might be miffed for example if they don't have England ticket income for two years running.

Fair answer.

Also I've only just noticed that the entire rotation seems deliberately based around Italy - every country has Italy as part of the 'three' on the 'three games home, two games away, reversed each season' schedule.

Riskymove

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Fair answer.

Also I've only just noticed that the entire rotation seems deliberately based around Italy - every country has Italy as part of the 'three' on the 'three games home, two games away, reversed each season' schedule.

that is because Italy was added in to the previous rotation when they joined

it wasn't redrawn at all

awec

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Fair answer.

Also I've only just noticed that the entire rotation seems deliberately based around Italy - every country has Italy as part of the 'three' on the 'three games home, two games away, reversed each season' schedule.

I presume they just took the 5 nations schedule and added Italy in as an extra fixture so Italy would always be the 3rd team on the 3 home game year.

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

I guess the unions don't want the situation where they play the same team away two years in a row.

The IRFU might be miffed for example if they don't have England ticket income for two years running.

It's beyond stale IMO, there should be a provision to change it at least every 4 years.

lunarhog

With the rise of tier 2 nations and the aim of increasing standards, I was thinking recently it might be a good idea to have a European championships every 4 years in place of the Lions tours (controversial, I know!).  Could have 2 groups of 4 teams including 6 nations sides and also top 2 in the tier 2 (currently Georgia and Romania).  Top 2 in each group go through to semis.  Could also arguably have 5 in each group but an extra game in the summer may not be so welcome.  Just a thought, feel free to poo poo and apologies if off topic

wp_rathead

lunarhog wrote: »

With the rise of tier 2 nations and the aim of increasing standards, I was thinking recently it might be a good idea to have a European championships every 4 years in place of the Lions tours (controversial, I know!).  Could have 2 groups of 4 teams including 6 nations sides and also top 2 in the tier 2 (currently Georgia and Romania).  Top 2 in each group go through to semis.  Could also arguably have 5 in each group but an extra game in the summer may not be so welcome.  Just a thought, feel free to poo poo and apologies if off topic

Won't happen but if something like that was to happen it be better to be a Northern Hemisphere tournament with USA and Canada as well as Georgia and Romania, maybe Russia too (Japan seem to be regarded as a SH side)

The Lost Sheep

lunarhog wrote: »

With the rise of tier 2 nations and the aim of increasing standards, I was thinking recently it might be a good idea to have a European championships every 4 years in place of the Lions tours (controversial, I know!). Could have 2 groups of 4 teams including 6 nations sides and also top 2 in the tier 2 (currently Georgia and Romania). Top 2 in each group go through to semis. Could also arguably have 5 in each group but an extra game in the summer may not be so welcome. Just a thought, feel free to poo poo and apologies if off topic

Removing Lions tours wont happen as too much income lost. Having a European championship would be great though and we should be working towards that

wp_rathead wrote: »

Won't happen but if something like that was to happen it be better to be a Northern Hemisphere tournament with USA and Canada as well as Georgia and Romania, maybe Russia too (Japan seem to be regarded as a SH side)

Japan always seen as SH and especially now they've a side in Super Rugby

wp_rathead

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Japan always seen as SH and especially now they've a side in Super Rugby

Plus don't they play in the Pacific Cup with Fiji, Samoa and Tonga? Or has that been disbanded?

Richard Hillman

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Murrayfield in February in driving rain is a lot different to Murrayfield in late March. The 6N isn't a level playing field as it is with the difference between home and away fixtures but it is accepted because it works on a rota basis. Now with the weather, it completely throws up a disadvantage.

Edinburgh gets more rain in March than in February.


I'm all for this, the last few years has been some of the drabbest ****e to watch.