Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

jealous dog

  • 29-11-2016 8:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭


    Hi,
    Basically looming for advice. I have 2 dogs a 13 year old Yorkie ( male) and a 3 year old springer/cocker female.

    My old man follows me everywhere and likes nothing now than jumping up on the couch for cuddles the problem is her jealousy. Take tonight for instance, I just sat down and the yorkie went to jump up next to me she latched on to him and bit him. I lost it and to my shame I slapped her before throwing out it the back to cool off. I left her back in after 10 minutes and she cowered away from me.

    I've never in my life hurt an animal but I lost it with her tonight. She does this at least once a week, he's an old man that deserves respect and cuddles. She gets them too .

    At the minute she's sulking in her bed he's asleep on the couch and I'm fretting over slapping her.
    If you've got this far I'll happily take any advice and thanks

    Can I just say she's always dominated him from the time she was a puppy but I don't want her to hurt him she's more than twice his size and weight


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Aw look op, you lost your rag... It happens... And you're big enough to recognise that you lost your rag. Gwan out to her and give her some cuddles... You guys will be ok :o
    Right. The problem itself. Just to start, the whole dominance thing has been disproven as an unlikely explanation as to why dogs do what they do. Instead, snarking between dogs is generally an argument over resources. If one dog hugely values a particular resource, she'll generally be prepared to use threatening behaviour to stop the other dog (or human) from taking that resource away. If being a bit of a bully works the first few times a dog tries it, it very quickly becomes the dog's go-to behaviour to resolve not just the initial problem, but more besides.
    What resources do I mean? It's usually one or some from the following list: food, edible treats/bones/chews, water, owner attention, sleeping space and comfortable resting spots, toys, their own body and space around it, they've even been known to protect their own vomit :D
    You can see from my non-exhaustive list that at least two are at play here, and both are very much intertwined: she wants to monopolise the attention and contact she's getting from you, and/or doesn't want the Yorkie disturbing her rest or sharing her "bed" (couch space). Does that make sense?
    I couldn't figure out from your post, but was she already ensconced on the sofa when the Yorkie tried to jump up?
    There needs to be some T+Cs attached to her being allowed up on the sofa. First of all, she should not be allowed use it as a bed unless you're there, and by your invitation only.
    If she so much as looks sideways at the Yorkie when he approaches the sofa (and I'm willing to bet that she gives him hard stares, tenses up her body, maybe a low, throaty growl?), then she's off the sofa with a verbal warning. End of.
    I'd be inclined to keep a light lead attached to her collar for a few weeks so that you can easily move her off the sofa quickly and without having to manhandle her or negotiate with her. The lead must only be attached when she's being supervised, for safety's sake).
    Another option is to keep them both off the sofa for a few weeks, then start letting them back up again by invitation only. Yorkie first, her second, just so that she's not physically in a position to guard the sofa again. Whilst many a Yorkie will convincingly stand up for themselves, your fella is getting on, and there's probably a fair size disparity between them which doesn't help his confidence.
    How would you see that panning out?

    PS I've just noticed she's a Cocker x... Cockers are little demons for resource guarding, in my experience.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,975 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    You need professional help from a qualified behaviourist. Your bitch is not 'jealous' or 'dominant', she's resource guarding. It's not something anyone can help with without being in your house and seeing what exactly is happening.

    There is also a book called Mine by Jean Donaldson. I haven't needed to read it myself but it comes highly recommended. You are beyond any help you would get from a book at this stage by the sounds of it though. If you let us know where you are someone can recommend a behaviourist for you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭now online


    Thanks DBB,

    She never gives him a warning one minute she's all sweetness and kind the next minute she's attacked him no warning given. They both went to jump up at the same time and she didn't like it.

    Everyone/dog is happy again she gave him a kiss like she was saying sorry.

    She's very obedient with me but it's like she can't stand him having any attention


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭now online


    You need professional help from a qualified behaviourist. Your bitch is not 'jealous' or 'dominant', she's resource guarding. It's not something anyone can help with without being in your house and seeing what exactly is happening.

    There is also a book called Mine by Jean Donaldson. I haven't needed to read it myself but it comes highly recommended. You are beyond any help you would get from a book at this stage by the sounds of it though. If you let us know where you are someone can recommend a behaviourist for you.


    We recognized from the outset she was strong willed or whatever you want to call it and got a dog trainer who in fairness I can still ring and maybe I should. .

    We've had them both from pups both loved and we'll treated I'm at a loss to understand her jealousy.

    There have been times I've (idly ) threatened to open the front door and let her walk.

    Eta I'm in Cork


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    You defo need some rules... Indeed, before they get up on the sofa, she must be sitting on X spot away from the sofa, to allow himself space and time to jump aboard.
    It may also help to do other exercises to teach her a bit more self control... Ask her to sit, tell her she's good, give the nearby Yorkie a second or two of attention, and as long as she stays sitting, come straight back to her with a small treat, praise and attention. If she gets up, stop everything and get her into the sit again on the same spot.
    As she cops that you giving him attention results in her getting lots of nice stuff, you can start to stretch out the time you're attending to Yorkie.
    A session with a good, qualified behaviourist would do no harm though... There is probably a bit of tweaking to be done to suit your particular dogs as individuals :)


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, dogs don't understand the nuances of fair treatment or not being jealous. It's unlikely this really has anything to do with her upbringing... Resource guarding is a perfectly natural behaviour, but that doesn't always sit well with us (despite the fact that we do it ourselves :D)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭now online


    DBB wrote: »
    Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, dogs don't understand the nuances of fair treatment or not being jealous. It's unlikely this really has anything to do with her upbringing... Resource guarding is a perfectly natural behaviour, but that doesn't always sit well with us (despite the fact that we do it ourselves :D)

    Honestly she's still sulking, I'm on one couch with the yorkie and she's on another by herself. Every now and then she looks over at me with a guilty / sorry face.

    If someone can pm me with a recommendation of a behaviourist instead of dog trainer I'd be grateful. I do love her just bit her bullying of my old man!


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Have you contacted Nanci Creedon in Cork?
    http://www.creedonsdoggiedaycare.ie/dog-behaviourist-cork-dog-expert-ireland/

    As for the "guilty look", have a read of this... https://nishidiaries.wordpress.com/tag/dog-guilt/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    You need professional help from a qualified behaviourist. Your bitch is not 'jealous' or 'dominant', she's resource guarding. It's not something anyone can help with without being in your house and seeing what exactly is happening.


    Resource guarding?!! Eh pack animals don't see their pack leader as a resource, it's dominant aggressive possessive behaviour. The fact that the OP has said that this has happened many times before leads me to believe that they should start reading up a little bit about dog behaviour and psychology and especially bits around how packs behaviour towards fellow pack members etc.

    Also OP you were correct to address your dogs behaviour obviously not in the way you did however, again there are techniques to do this correctly etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Resource guarding?!! Eh pack animals don't see their pack leader as a resource, it's dominant aggressive possessive behaviour. The fact that the OP has said that this has happened many times before leads me to believe that they should start reading up a little bit about dog behaviour and psychology and especially bits around how packs behaviour towards fellow pack members etc.

    Also OP you were correct to address your dogs behaviour obviously not in the way you did however, again there are techniques to do this correctly etc

    Oh dear.:o

    It's rather ironic that you tell the OP to read up on dog behaviour and psychology given that your advice is about 3 decades out of date.

    There's other posters that are far better at explaining why the entire dominance theory has been disproven and rubbished by science, and even by the author of the original theory himself. So I'll leave it up to them to point you in the right direction of where to read up yourself.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Resource guarding?!! Eh pack animals don't see their pack leader as a resource, it's dominant aggressive possessive behaviour. The fact that the OP has said that this has happened many times before leads me to believe that they should start reading up a little bit about dog behaviour and psychology and especially bits around how packs behaviour towards fellow pack members etc.

    Also OP you were correct to address your dogs behaviour obviously not in the way you did however, again there are techniques to do this correctly etc

    Hmmmm... Pack theory, dominance, and social climbing in dogs is accepted now by qualified behaviourists, who adhere to research-led analysis of behaviour, as being a myth. Ditto for the behavioural scientists, ethologists, geneticists, ecologists.
    A bit of reading for yourself ...
    http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/caninedominance

    http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

    http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787808001159

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327604jaws0704_7

    http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html

    https://apdt.com/pet-owners/choosing-a-trainer/dominance/

    https://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

    https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/the-truth-about-dominance/

    Also, read Ray Coppinger's books and articles about how dogs actually evolved from wolves inclined to solitary life.
    Also a great read which brings the mountains of recent (past 15 years) of scientific analysis into one book, John Bradshaw's "In Defence of Dogs".

    Enjoy! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    It's rather ironic that you tell the OP to read up on dog behaviour and psychology given that your advice is about 3 decades out of date.


    Wow that is shocking that you think that. Pack animals all display very similar traits not limited to Dominance, submission, and aggression. Are you even dismissing the role of Alpha pack leader for example?! There really is no theory involved here it can simply be observed in the animals especially in horses and dogs for example.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Pack animals all display very similar traits not limited to Dominance, submission, and aggression

    Dogs aren't pack animals.
    They don't understand what an Alpha leader is.
    They form loose groups in a feral setting which, the scientists have observed (cf Ray Coppinger, mentioned in my last post), the loose social structures of which are very much based on available resources, particularly access to fertile females.
    Again, as per Coppinger's groundbreaking research, which in fairness is 20+ years old at this stage, the domestic dog evolved from wolves which themselves were genetically distinct in a behavioural sense, in that they were not pack/group-forming animals. They no longer needed the group structure required for co-operative hunting due to the ready food supply inadvertently offered to them by early human settlers... And they essentially domesticated themselves.
    In any case, as you'll read in those links I posted, wolves themselves don't do dominance hierarchies, and don't have an Alpha leadership as it's widely understood by non-biologists. As a family-orientated species, their social structure is far more akin to a human family's, than it is too a dominance-based hierarchical system as seen in horses, elephants, chimpanzees etc.
    So, to put it very simply, if wolves don't do dominance hierarchies, and dogs came from wolves genetically inclined to a more solitary way of life, it stands to reason that the domesticated dog simply doesn't exist within a dominance hierarchy, nor comprehend what pack leadership is. That's not my personal opinion, as you'll see when you take a read of the articles I've posted :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Wow that is shocking that you think that. Pack animals all display very similar traits not limited to Dominance, submission, and aggression. Are you even dismissing the role of Alpha pack leader for example?! There really is no theory involved here it can simply be observed in the animals especially in horses and dogs for example.

    Alpha my eye. It is a theory. Dogs aren't wolves and they don't live in packs. They look to their humans for companionship, food and shelter, not to take over.

    Turn off Cesar Milan and start reading up on actual scientific, empirically based evidence. Everything you need to know is in the above links.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    My god what are you honestly talking about?!! Dogs aren't pack animals?! Watching one Documentary on African Wild Dogs will shown this is be completely self evident.

    How many dogs do you even have, if you watch them they pack display all the characteristics of a pack and pack behaviour towards each other.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    My god what are you honestly talking about?!! Dogs aren't pack animals?! Watching one Documentary on African Wild Dogs will shown this is be completely self evident.

    How many dogs do you even have, if you watch them they pack display all the characteristics of a pack and pack behaviour towards each other.

    Who are you aiming your question at? Because both of us said it. Here, I'll remind you:

    DBB said:
    Dogs aren't pack animals.
    They don't understand what an Alpha leader is.
    They form loose groups in a feral setting which, the scientists have observed (cf Ray Coppinger, mentioned in my last post), the loose social structures of which are very much based on available resources, particularly access to fertile females.
    I said:
    Alpha my eye. It is a theory. Dogs aren't wolves and they don't live in packs. They look to their humans for companionship, food and shelter, not to take over.
    Watching one documentary on a related species in the canid family does not compare like for like. Humans are Primates but we don't behave like Apes. (with the odd Trump like exception:D) As much as I love nature documentaries, or even dog programmes, most tend to be made from an entertainment perspective rather than an educational perspective and the viewer will probably focus on a tagline from the narrator, such as "From wolves came all breeds of dog from the Chihuahua to the Great Dane", which is technically not a lie, but leaves a LOT of important information out on the innate differences between them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭now online


    Hi and Thanks to everyone who posted.

    My only experience of dogs is that of an owner and dog lover but for what it's worth we had a female yorkie before the springer who also dominated him.

    Everything from food (separate bowls but he wouldn't eat till she was finished)

    I'm definitely going to contact our dog trainer for guidance first and look into the cost of the behaviorist. I have 2 young children and if she reacted that way to either of them coming up to me for a cuddle she'd be for the big sleep


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Who are you aiming your question at? Because both of us said it. Here, I'll remind you:

    DBB said:
    I said:
    Watching one documentary on a related species in the canid family does not compare like for like. Humans are Primates but we don't behave like Apes. (with the odd Trump like exception:D) As much as I love nature documentaries, or even dog programmes, most tend to be made from an entertainment perspective rather than an educational perspective and the viewer will probably focus on a tagline from the narrator, such as "From wolves came all breeds of dog from the Chihuahua to the Great Dane", which is technically not a lie, but leaves a LOT of important information out on the innate differences between them.

    Ah your just being pedantic now African wild dogs Canids are highly social carnivores that live in packs as do domesticated dogs but honestly that would be self evident if you had a couple of dogs.

    Ask any Sheep farming about the local dogs forming packs when chasing down their flock.

    There is ample evidence of dogs forming social groups, if you don't want to call that a pack then ill leave you too it to be honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,274 ✭✭✭cocker5


    now online wrote: »
    Hi and Thanks to everyone who posted.

    My only experience of dogs is that of an owner and dog lover but for what it's worth we had a female yorkie before the springer who also dominated him.

    Everything from food (separate bowls but he wouldn't eat till she was finished)

    I'm definitely going to contact our dog trainer for guidance first and look into the cost of the behaviorist. I have 2 young children and if she reacted that way to either of them coming up to me for a cuddle she'd be for the big sleep

    Wow just wow you ever heard of rehoming if that occurs?
    PTS should ALWAYS be the very last option.

    Everything DBB has posted is 100% spot on.. its not dominance , the alpha male pack / leader crap has long since been disproven....its resource guarding...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭now online


    cocker5 wrote: »
    Wow just wow you ever heard of rehoming if that occurs?
    PTS should ALWAYS be the very last option.

    Everything DBB has posted is 100% spot on.. its not dominance , the alpha male pack / leader crap has long since been disproven....its resource guarding...

    I was talking hypothetically,hopefully it'll never come to that. As I said I will address it with our dog trainer and if necessary the behaviorist. I love her loads as do the rest of my family. She'll be here till her dying day!

    I guess I was just angry at her behavior.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    now online wrote: »
    Hi and Thanks to everyone who posted.

    My only experience of dogs is that of an owner and dog lover but for what it's worth we had a female yorkie before the springer who also dominated him.

    Everything from food (separate bowls but he wouldn't eat till she was finished)

    Females tend to be bossier, it's why it's always advisable to have a male/female pair of dogs as 2 bitches can be too hard to handle if they spark off each other. Your old male must be the type of dog who's happy enough to sit back and let the females boss him around for a quiet life!
    I'm definitely going to contact our dog trainer for guidance first and look into the cost of the behaviorist. I have 2 young children and if she reacted that way to either of them coming up to me for a cuddle she'd be for the big sleep
    While you already know a trainer, make sure they are up to date on their qualifications and methods. As DBB has pointed out earlier in the thread, so much has changed in the way that we view dogs, and there are plenty that are still stuck in their old ways because "they've got 20 years experience" but are doing more harm than good. BTW, not all trainers have behaviourists qualifications!

    It's not a given that a dog who shows aggression towards another dog will in turn be aggressive with their humans. However, resource guarding, in your case can be triggered by your attention and affections so it's not improbable that her behaviour may be extrapolated towards the other humans. A good behaviourist will be able to observe her behaviour in your home and work out a plan for you to follow through with. It's not just about changing the dogs behaviour, but your habits that lead up to that behaviour, so rather than just sitting down on the couch, you need to get into the habit of putting her in her bed with a treat before you sit down or even cuddle your other dog.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    I'm a bit disappointed, op, that I went to a fair bit of trouble to offer practical help to you with your dogs, in the process explaining to you, and indeed providing numerous links on how interpreting one dog's aggressive behaviour towards another as "dominant" is a mistake, yet you still plough on to post that your last dog was dominant too... I'd have hoped that when someone would take time out of their day to help you, that you'd have at least made an effort to absorb the information and use it to relate to other situations too.
    Frankly, I'm kinda sorry I bothered now :o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭now online


    DBB wrote: »
    I'm a bit disappointed, op, that I went to a fair bit of trouble to offer practical help to you with your dogs, in the process explaining to you, and indeed providing numerous links on how interpreting one dog's aggressive behaviour towards another as "dominant" is a mistake, yet you still plough on to post that your last dog was dominant too... I'd have hoped that when someone would take time out of their day to help you, that you'd have at least made an effort to absorb the information and use it to relate to other situations too.
    Frankly, I'm kinda sorry I bothered now :o

    I'm sorry you feel that way, I have looked into the Links you provided and posted looking for advice which I am very grateful for and will act on. Just because I used the wrong term i.e dominant doesn't mean I'm not listening! It's a lot to take in but I'm doing my best. Thanks for taking the time. I'll bow out now in case I offended anyone else


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Ah your just being pedantic now African wild dogs Canids are highly social carnivores that live in packs as do domesticated dogs but honestly that would be self evident if you had a couple of dogs.

    I have plenty of dogs thanks very much. They are part of my family, and while they play together, sleep together and exercise together, they always defer back to their humans for guidance, food and shelter - the difference between domesticated, companion pets and their related species - wild dogs.
    Ask any Sheep farming about the local dogs forming packs when chasing down their flock.

    There is ample evidence of dogs forming social groups, if you don't want to call that a pack then ill leave you too it to be honest.
    I wouldn't listen to most farmers opinions on dogs. I'm sure they know all about their livestock but most of them haven't got a clue about dogs. That much is evident from the amount of badly bred nervous collies and collie crosses and litters handed into every shelter and pound in the country by the local farmers - usually with the threat that if they don't take them that they'll "dispose" of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,763 ✭✭✭Knine


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    My god what are you honestly talking about?!! Dogs aren't pack animals?! Watching one Documentary on African Wild Dogs will shown this is be completely self evident.

    How many dogs do you even have, if you watch them they pack display all the characteristics of a pack and pack behaviour towards each other.

    4 dogs living together & several very regular visitors. No pack behaviour at all. There is no dominant or submissive dog. They simply all live reasonably happy together even though 3 of them are bitches.

    As DBB described in an excellent post above there can be sometimes resource guarding. The resource in their case is usually a toy but it can also be my male dog as my bitches are mostly entire. They all sleep on the sofa or floor etc without any issues. If two of the bitches spark it is always over the male dog (lucky him) or a toy.

    They are highly respectful of each others food bowls as I give each weaned puppy their own bowl & their mother teaches them a lot in this area!


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Ah your just being pedantic now African wild dogs Canids are highly social carnivores that live in packs as do domesticated dogs but honestly that would be self evident if you had a couple of dogs.

    Canids are highly social carnivores?
    Really?
    What about foxes?
    Seriously, African Wild Dogs are a completely different species and their common ancestor with the domestic dog is a long, long, long way further back than the common ancestor of the wolf and dog. Trying to compare the social structure of the African Wild Dog to the domestic dog is pretty near to comparing the social structure of lions (a sociable, group-living cat) to tigers (a largely solitary cat).
    I'm going to say this one more time as it seems you're ignoring the scientific evidence I have presented to you... Dogs evolved from wolves that themselves had evolved into non-pack animals. Dogs are not pack animals.
    Ask any Sheep farming about the local dogs forming packs when chasing down their flock.

    I posted about this elsewhere last week, and if you'll permit me to once again use research-led evidence rather than supposition, DEFRA in the UK carried out an extensive survey of the facts and stats behind attacks on sheep. The majority of dog attacks on flocks is by single dogs acting alone. Of the remainder where there is more than one dog, the vast majority of attacks is by two dogs. Interestingly, it also found that most attacks were carried out by dogs that themselves belong to farmers.

    Anyway. I digress. Even if you get a group of dogs in a big field with, say, a hare... What you get is a group of dogs running like eejits after the hare. There is no co-ordination, no planning, no team roles assigned between dogs. When two greyhounds are coursing a hare, do you think they're working together as a team? Of course not. It's me, me, me... All they're interested in is catching (turning) that hare for themselves.
    Contrast that to a wolf hunt, and no doubt you've seen the documentaries... Highly organised, each family member with a role to play (blockers, chasers, ambushes etc), they deliberately move the herd of prey animals along so that they can pick out a weak one, and co-ordinate themselves to effectively bring it down.
    There is ample evidence of dogs forming social groups
    The only evidence I've seen is that presented by Ray Coppinger and team (sorry for bringing him up again... It's just that he's the Charles Darwin of dog social behaviour :)) whereby he describes temporary, unstable groups formed amongst feral dogs (he has studied feral "dump dogs" and village dogs all over the world... It's likely the way such dogs live mimics very closely how those ancestral solitary wolves lived) around mating time. There's nothing particularly co-ordinated or close about them. He'll tell you himself... The domestic dog and their ancestors are not pack animals. There is a tendency for non-biologists to see a group of animals together and to call this a "pack", but in the biological sense of the word, being a pack suggests a close-knit, co-ordinated, often family group which carries out every action they need to survive in a deliberate, considered way, from hunting to reproduction to self-preservation. As I've touched on above, these words do not describe what happens when you put a bunch of domestic dogs together.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    now online wrote: »
    I'm sorry you feel that way, I have looked into the Links you provided and posted looking for advice which I am very grateful for and will act on. Just because I used the wrong term i.e dominant doesn't mean I'm not listening! It's a lot to take in but I'm doing my best. Thanks for taking the time. I'll bow out now in case I offended anyone else

    Please don't bow out, I'd like to hear an update. Will be very upsetting for this to happen, and (most) of the guys on here really know their stuff, so you should be able to get this sorted.

    All the best - I hope all turns out well for you all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭muddypaws


    OP, please keep us updated. I have a 'pack' ;) of dogs here, 12 of my own, 1 foster and at the moment one paying guest for training/behaviourial issues. One of my dogs is a young eejit, jumps on the other dogs, wants to play all the time, sometimes goes too far with them. Usually I'll just remove him from the situation if it is getting out of hand, and no stress, but I also have an old, ill dog, he snapped at her the other night and whilst I reacted the same as I do with the other dogs, put him out of the room, inside I was livid because she's old and sick, its not fair. Thats my human reaction, just as yours was, and there's nothing wrong with that, if I see someone being treated unfairly, I react.

    Mayosalmon, wolves actually live in family groups, so there is a hierarchy, but it is a parent/offspring one. The scientist that came up with the alpha theory has retracted it completely, it was done while he studied captive wolves, so would be similar to a human prison population being studied, and then that society being used as an example of the way that the whole of humanity lives.

    As above, I have 12 dogs of my own living in the house, along with a long term foster dog, so yep lots and lots of experience of dogs interacting with each other. No alpha here, not even me ;) sometimes one dog takes the lead in something, other times a different dog will. They are all working or retired working sled dogs, so they are used to working together as part of a team, some of them are definitely better at being lead dogs in harness, not all of them have the confidence to do that, I love watching how they all interact and they have taught me a huge amount about dogs and how they view the world.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Op, I didn't mean for you to go off and not post again. I just got a bit exasperated. I happens us all ;)
    Please come back and let us know how you get on :)


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    There's ample scientific evidence that dogs are pack animals. I could write pages upon pages about these comparisons.

    Dogs are social animals and have high ritualized displays of dominance and submission that are used to prevent conflict, it is primarily rituals of submission that keep peace and not always displays of dominance.

    Any given dog may be dominant or submissive at any given time depending upon the situation. A problem I am seeing with some posters here is that the term dominance conveys some sort of sadist evilish that should never be mentioned.

    What does dominance truly mean though? What does leadership truly mean then?

    It means establishing yourself as someone your dog willingly defers to, looks for guidance, trusts and follows. The "Pack Leader" asserts leadership/dominance however this does not have to be forceful, violent or aggressive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭muddypaws


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    There's ample scientific evidence that dogs are pack animals. I could write pages upon pages about these comparisons.

    Dogs are social animals and have high ritualized displays of dominance and submission that are used to prevent conflict, it is primarily rituals of submission that keep peace and not always displays of dominance.

    Any given dog may be dominant or submissive at any given time depending upon the situation. A problem I am seeing with some posters here is that the term dominance conveys some sort of sadist evilish that should never be mentioned.

    What does dominance truly mean though? What does leadership truly mean then?

    It means establishing yourself as someone your dog willingly defers to, looks for guidance, trusts and follows. The "Pack Leader" asserts leadership/dominance however this does not have to be forceful, violent or aggressive.

    If you could put some links up to that scientific evidence, it would be good.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    muddypaws wrote: »
    If you could put some links up to that scientific evidence, it would be good.

    Yes, I'll second that request. Whenever suits is fine.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    MayoSalmon wrote: »

    Dogs are social animals and have high ritualized displays of dominance and submission that are used to prevent conflict, it is primarily rituals of submission that keep peace and not always displays of dominance.

    Any given dog may be dominant or submissive at any given time depending upon the situation. A problem I am seeing with some posters here is that the term dominance conveys some sort of sadist evilish that should never be mentioned.

    Yep, all social animals use displays of body language to communicate with others of their species, dogs are no exception. Some displays are threatening, some are backing down, depending on the scenario, the individual dogs etc.
    But to suggest that dogs use these threats and appeasement behaviours in order to climb a ladder of social hierarchy is where it all falls down for the "pack leader" argument. This is what's been disproven, that becoming pack leader, or climbing to any higher social standing, is categorically not what motivates or causes these behaviours in dogs. Being a social animal does not in any way mean that such an animal must live within a dominance hierarchy by the way. A dominance hierarchy is one way of maintaining order, it's just not one that's used by wolves or dogs.
    People who rely on anecdote and supposition have long been misinterpreting these behaviours... They say that threatening/agonistic behaviours are displays of dominance to assist the dog in climbing the social ladder. They say that appeasement behaviours are a submissive dog abjectly accepting his lowly place in a pack. They continue to believe this despite the fact that the guy who initially proposed the idea that dogs live within a dominance hierarchy (David Mech... Look him up :)) has long, long since retracted his theories. This is why the word "dominant" has become quite the hot potato, because it has been hijacked and misrepresented as a biological concept by pack theorists.

    In fact, and I say "in fact" because this has been shown again and again in objective, unbiased, empirical scientific research, these threatening and appeasement behaviours are used in order to secure prized resources for each dog as an individual. For an individual dog, having a greater drive to protect a squeaky ball/food/sleeping spot/self/owner attention etc is certainly not the same thing as trying to ascend a social hierarchy. It's just not that complicated.
    Similarly, behavioural scientists have tested dogs to measure whether supporting them in these perceived apparent dominance hierarchies bears any relation to the exhibiting of threatening ("dominant") or appeasing ("submissive") behaviours. It might come as no surprise that the answer to this was a resounding "no".
    As for dogs being pack animals, I think I've waxed lyrical enough about that and how the concept is completely rejected by scientific analyses... So... If a dog is not a pack animal... Why would he have any concept of a "pack leader"? I've said it many times... How anyone seriously believes that we could live in any sort of harmony with an animal that has aspirations to dominate us socially is beyond me. It would be a nightmare across the board. You certainly wouldn't fondly refer to the animal as a "pet"!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    MayoSalmon wrote: »

    Thanks for those. Though the second link pretty much says what I said in my last post, as it's not really supporting the concept of dogs being motivated to become "pack leader", rather that it's a one-to-one relationship between individuals.
    And in the first paper from Vienna, they are also describing linear one-to-one relationships, which as some of the links I posted yesterday say, a "dominant/submissive relationship" between two individual dogs (or dog to human) is absolutely normal... "dominance" is more accurately a descriptor of a two-way relationship, not a frame of mind. See my post above for why "dominance" is a misrepresented concept and as a result, a bit of a hot potato as a word!). But even in what you've linked, it does not denote a desire in dogs to ascend a social hierarchy... Which seems to me to be where the pack-theorists' confusion lies.

    For the record, and bear with me here, I did a bit of research and study with those researchers in Vienna and other labs they're associated with. We tested amongst other things, the dog opening the plastic box test in which Monique Udell (the American researcher quoted in the first article) said in her tests, dogs couldn't do without instruction.
    In contrast, we found that this very much relied on the individual dog, and that the "independent" breeds such as terriers, huskies, hounds etc were quite adept at opening the boxes with speed and without any human interference. Indeed, even with co-operative breeds such as herders and gundogs, they were also good at opening the boxes without direction... The ones that wouldn't open the boxes without direction were the trained dogs that had learned to seek the go-ahead from their owners!
    So... That's the thing about research, replicate the experiment and if you get a match, you're heading down the path of proof. But there have been countless, countless times when the researchers in Vienna have come up with X result in an experiment, only for it not to be replicated by Udell in America, and other researchers worldwide. And vice versa. The ongoing tete-a-tete between these labs is a source of bemusement amongst other researchers, but it goes to show that for research to be accepted, it's gotta be reliably replicate-able. Both "sides" who you quote there are often criticised for their tendency to go for shock headlines, again to the bemusement of other researchers. So there... A bit of "inside track" info for ya ;)
    So whilst I think your first link is certainly interesting, at the moment it's a bit of an outlier until it is replicated again in another lab... And it certainly flies in the face of the oodles of established research I linked to yesterday... For now at least :o


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    DBB wrote: »
    Thanks for those. Though the second link pretty much says what I said in my last post, as it's not really supporting the concept of dogs being motivated to become "pack leader", rather that it's a one-to-one relationship between individuals.
    And in the first paper from Vienna, they are also describing linear one-to-one relationships, which as some of the links I posted yesterday say, a "dominant/submissive relationship" between two individual dogs (or dog to human) is absolutely normal... "dominance" is more accurately a descriptor of a two-way relationship, not a frame of mind. See my post above for why "dominance" is a misrepresented concept and as a result, a bit of a hot potato as a word!). But even in what you've linked, it does not denote a desire in dogs to ascend a social hierarchy... Which seems to me to be where the pack-theorists' confusion lies.

    For the record, and bear with me here, I did a bit of research and study with those researchers in Vienna and other labs they're associated with. We tested amongst other things, the dog opening the plastic box test in which Monique Udell (the American researcher quoted in the first article) said in her tests, dogs couldn't do without instruction.
    In contrast, we found that this very much relied on the individual dog, and that the "independent" breeds such as terriers, huskies, hounds etc were quite adept at opening the boxes with speed and without any human interference. Indeed, even with co-operative breeds such as herders and gundogs, they were also good at opening the boxes without direction... The ones that wouldn't open the boxes without direction were the trained dogs that had learned to seek the go-ahead from their owners!
    So... That's the thing about research, replicate the experiment and if you get a match, you're heading down the path of proof. But there have been countless, countless times when the researchers in Vienna have come up with X result in an experiment, only for it not to be replicated by Udell in America, and other researchers worldwide. And vice versa. The ongoing tete-a-tete between these labs is a source of bemusement amongst other researchers, but it goes to show that for research to be accepted, it's gotta be reliably replicate-able. Both "sides" who you quote there are often criticised for their tendency to go for shock headlines, again to the bemusement of other researchers. So there... A bit of "inside track" info for ya ;)
    So whilst I think your first link is certainly interesting, at the moment it's a bit of an outlier until it is replicated again in another lab... And it certainly flies in the face of the oodles of established research I linked to yesterday... For now at least :o

    Theres plenty more studies of which you can try discredit all you want

    http://dogspies.com/Dog_Spies/Science!_files/CSF%202012%20Abstracts.pdf

    https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/84470/rkt_1.pdf?sequence=1

    While I agree Dog behavior is a very complex subject the issue of Hierarchical dominance in dogs is a fact and anybody with a pack of dogs would be well witnessed in that.

    You seem to think nobody can call their dog a "pet" if he/she see's me as this dominant powerful human being some sort of emotional tyranny to his life.

    When we think of dominance-based relationship, we tend to think of high-ranking animals routinely showing their power and strength to the lower ranking animals to reinforce their status. In reality, dominant relationships are primarily established by low ranking individuals showing formal submissive signals to high-ranking animals, in recognition of their supremacy. Ears behind the head, lay down exposing the belly, excessive licking all submissive behaviors.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Theres plenty more studies of which you can try discredit all you want

    With all due respect, I'm not trying to discredit, merely being objective and putting it to you that (a) the research is actually saying what you think it's saying, and (b) it's important that the research has itself been consolidated, which isn't yet the case with what you've posted, but is the case with what I've posted.
    While I agree Dog behavior is a very complex subject the issue of Hierarchical dominance in dogs is a fact and anybody with a pack of dogs would be well witnessed in that.

    But it's not. You have misunderstood what the research says, even the research you posted earlier, and you've misunderstood what I've said. Your own observations have been with a strong bias towards what you believe, but would be pulled apart if you spent time with a behavioural scientists who is looking at interactions with a research-led eye.
    You seem to think nobody can call their dog a "pet" if he/she see's me as this dominant powerful human being some sort of emotional tyranny to his life.

    With respect, nowhere have I said anything of the sort and again you have utterly twisted what has actually been said. Please don't put words in my mouth :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    DBB wrote: »
    How anyone seriously believes that we could live in any sort of harmony with an animal that has aspirations to dominate us socially is beyond me. It would be a nightmare across the board. You certainly wouldn't fondly refer to the animal as a "pet"!

    Your words not mine.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Your words not mine.

    You are twisting my words or deliberately misunderstanding me, I can't figure out which.
    You believe that dogs aspire to be pack leaders.
    I have refuted this with lots of research.. As have you but I don't think you realise it.
    You posted research that pretty much backs up what I've already said, before you posted links, about linear relationships of "dominance" and "submission" between individual dogs. You don't seem to understand that this is not the same thing as a dog aspiring to be a pack leader. None of the research posted by you or I suggests (that I can see... That's a lot of abstracts to wade through above before I found what I assume you wanted me to see) that dogs try to become pack leader.

    With that in mind, what I said above is that if dogs truly were motivated to be pack leaders, we could not live with them as pet dogs. They would be a nightmare.
    But, as I've said above, the reality is that they're not motivated by such aspirations, and that is what makes them such suitable pets and working companions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭now online


    Wow....I guess debate is healthy.

    Overreacted DBB sorry!

    Update is dog trainer is coming to my house tomorrow to observe and advise, he's fully up to date with latest methods,training and theories.

    I let you know how we get on.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭muddypaws


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    While I agree Dog behavior is a very complex subject the issue of Hierarchical dominance in dogs is a fact and anybody with a pack of dogs would be well witnessed in that.

    You seem to think nobody can call their dog a "pet" if he/she see's me as this dominant powerful human being some sort of emotional tyranny to his life.

    When we think of dominance-based relationship, we tend to think of high-ranking animals routinely showing their power and strength to the lower ranking animals to reinforce their status. In reality, dominant relationships are primarily established by low ranking individuals showing formal submissive signals to high-ranking animals, in recognition of their supremacy. Ears behind the head, lay down exposing the belly, excessive licking all submissive behaviors.

    I have a 'pack' and disagree.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    muddypaws wrote: »
    I have a 'pack' and disagree.

    And then you are sadly misinformed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭muddypaws


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    And then you are sadly misinformed.

    What? That doesn't make sense, misinformed, who by?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    muddypaws wrote: »
    What? That doesn't make sense, misinformed, who by?

    I think, that MayoSalmon thinks, that we're all wrong and he's the only one that's right.

    It doesn't matter that we work with dogs all day every day, or study dog behaviour, or go to seminars, or even be the most educated person in Ireland on the topic;). We're ALL wrong in his opinion:D

    On a side note, I really dislike ready American articles and publications. It's no wonder that the terms dominance/alpha/pack leader are misinterpreted they way American people bandy them about. It's the same on any of the facebook pages I'm on when members ask for advice on behaviour problems. The American members simply say that it's "dominance" or the dog wants to be the "Alpha" and give out that the other person isn't being the "pack leader" without ever getting to the proper cause of the problem. National Geographic has a lot to answer for!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    I think, that MayoSalmon thinks, that we're all wrong and he's the only one that's right.

    It doesn't matter that we work with dogs all day every day, or study dog behaviour, or go to seminars, or even be the most educated person in Ireland on the topic;). We're ALL wrong in his opinion:D

    On a side note, I really dislike ready American articles and publications. It's no wonder that the terms dominance/alpha/pack leader are misinterpreted they way American people bandy them about. It's the same on any of the facebook pages I'm on when members ask for advice on behaviour problems. The American members simply say that it's "dominance" or the dog wants to be the "Alpha" and give out that the other person isn't being the "pack leader" without ever getting to the proper cause of the problem. National Geographic has a lot to answer for!

    Give me a break would ya! You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

    I have presented studies supporting my theory as have other posters supporting theres!

    Most dogs "Don't" want to Alpha just like most people in life probably don't want to be CEO's or TD's with all the stress and responsibilities that come with these.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭muddypaws


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Give me a break would ya! You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

    I have presented studies supporting my theory as have other posters supporting theres!

    Most dogs "Don't" want to Alpha just like most people in life probably don't want to be CEO's or TD's with all the stress and responsibilities that come with these.

    But the scientist that came up with the term 'alpha' has retracted it and said it is wrong, it was built on a false premise.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Just to get back on topic for a moment, on behalf of the op, this is the lady in question... Milly! Cute, huh?

    2djwea8.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Bells21


    MayoSalmon wrote:
    Give me a break would ya! You are entitled to your opinion as am I.


    These are opinions that are backed by in depth studies, from a variety of people and not on one person's belief.
    Op I hope your trainer will be able to help you and as I'm sure you probably know already it may take time and patience but I'm sure the issue will be resolved. Please keep us updated on your progress.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭SillyMangoX


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Give me a break would ya! You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

    It is my opinion that the theory that the world is flat is true. I am entitled to this opinion as is anyone else.

    However this doesn't take from the fact that the world is in fact round.

    People are of course allowed to have opinions on whatever they like, but it doesn't mean that opinion coincides with fact.

    Dominance theory was taken as fact when it first came out, as was the world being flat.
    But time has expanded on that to more modern research.
    While many many many many people may not be aware of the shift in research, largely due to the old thinking still being spouted on a lot of modern dog behaviour related tv programmes etc, (which is no ones fault!), those people who study dogs both academically and through working with them in every day life, have gone out and done the research themselves that leads to the more up to date studies on the hierarchy of dogs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    now online wrote: »
    Wow....I guess debate is healthy.

    Overreacted DBB sorry!

    Update is dog trainer is coming to my house tomorrow to observe and advise, he's fully up to date with latest methods,training and theories.

    I let you know how we get on.

    Oh that's excellent news. I do hope you get sorted. Please let us know how you all get on.


  • Advertisement
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement