Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

weldoninhio

Sam Quentin wrote: »

I thought my points were common knowledge..
I will not explain how less drinking will save on health bill.
And I will not explain how less drinking will save/free up Garda resources.

Not this particular bill but as I stated previously>> the Government is making small steps in the right direction..

So you’ve no idea what you are talking about. Thanks for clearing that up.

Dr Crayfish

weldoninhio wrote: »

So you’ve no idea what you are talking about. Thanks for clearing that up.

Just ignore him

VinLieger

Sam Quentin wrote: »

MUP and less visibility of alcohol and anything advertising alcohol, is obviously targeting the younger generation..
As I stated small steps in the right direction.. And maybe in 15/20 years or so we will have reduced the amount of dependants!?

Ahh yes i know as a child if i was told i couldn't have something due to the arbitrary reason of my age and it was put on a shelf i couldn't reach then i definitely forgot about it and didn't obsess over getting access to it....

weldoninhio

Sam Quentin wrote: »

MUP and less visibility of alcohol and anything advertising alcohol, is obviously targeting the younger generation..
As I stated small steps in the right direction.. And maybe in 15/20 years or so we will have reduced the amount of dependants!?

Also I agree you have some great points and a mature attitude to alcohol.

Yeah, I remember reading about when prohibition hit in the USA, people just forgot about alcohol. How long have cannabis, cocaine and heroin advertising been banned?? Because you never hear of people using those. Especially the younger generation!!

Leroy42

Sam Quentin wrote: »

MUP and less visibility of alcohol and anything advertising alcohol, is obviously targeting the younger generation..
As I stated small steps in the right direction.. And maybe in 15/20 years or so we will have reduced the amount of dependants!?

Also I agree you have some great points and a mature attitude to alcohol.

But that goes against the evidence in the last number of years of reducing alcohol levels? Do you put that totally down to lack of funds as that is the only way that you can then assume that MUP will have the effects you seem to think.

It is interesting that you mention the younger generation as I think (but I readily admit that I don't know) that this is where the reduction is coming from and it has not much to do with price levels.

We are moving towards a greater influence of health and fitness. Triathlon, marathon running, MAMILS etc etc. People are playing sport far longer into their adult lives than previously and people are more health conscious.

This is naturally seen even more so in younger adults who have probably been doing sport for years. My own daughters are very involved in sport, something my sisters were not at the same age.

This is what is having the impact and the pubs are seeing it the hardest as their products are simply too expensive. People will always head to the pub for the special occasions but the era of the only thing to do was the pub is, I believe, past us.

So I don't believe that this bill, as currently proposed, will actually achieve what they are claiming (now) is its aim. It is clearly aimed at getting more people back into the pub.

I appreciate you comments on my attitude. I posted them to try to show that I am not against this bill out of some 2don't you dare touch my pint" attitude but rather that we actually deal with the problems instead of caving in to vested interests with the veil of doing something

Reputable Rog

The MUP in Scotland is before the UK Supreme Court and they may rule against it.
I read today that MUP aspect of this bill may not come into operation until it commences in Norn Iron as well, given the absence of a government up there for the foreseeable future it may be a long time before it's enacted here.
I am also confident that the Drinks industry will fight this tooth and nail and halt it for a few years at least.

BuilderPlumber

There are many issues at play here and one can bet that this alcohol bill is about serving various vested interests. Health legislation poses the most serious threat to democracy in the future and if left unchecked, poses the next dictatorial ideology to follow Fascism, Stalinism and 'Islamism'. For now, healthism is largely ignored but its creeping influence and its alliance with sport and the fitness industries means it is gaining an unwanted and ominous foothold in our media and our government. All the time though, the focus is when it turns to alcohol on home drinking and the pub will be supported.

Now, don't get me wrong: I don't want to see drunkenness on our streets and something needs to be done about it. But not punishing the rest of us with high prices. Or crucifying businesses with more requirements such as to build a shelf. Drunken louts will still exist.

I think this whole obsession with sport and fitness is overhyped. It is a major industry and it makes a lot of people rich. Ironically, most sporting events are followed up with alcohol but we are not told that by the powers that be. Most GAA and soccer teams will drink after their matches and most marathon runners the very same. Drink is part of our and the world's culture.

I do not like ideologies being forced on us to change our culture. It usually comes with disasterous consequences. Will healthism be any different to the current threat of 'Islamism' or the past threat of Stalinism? Any country that implemented both these ended up a shell of its former self. Ask any Romanian, North Korean, Iranian or Afghan for an answer about how forced ideology destroyed their nations. I have a right to be suspicious of a dangerous ideology called healthism being forced piecemeal on us and our media brainwashing us with a lifestyle they themselves hardly live.

The biggest advocates in government and the media for healthism will most likely drink alcohol more than the average person and will have other 'unhealthy' habits like a love of fine food/desserts or smoking cigars. Just like the average politician in a Stalinist or 'Islamist' country also had far more lavish a lifestyle than the average citizen. Ireland's legislation on alcohol is fine as it is.

As for the pubs (and we must remember these get scant criticism from the healthists), they need to improve and reduce their prices. Places with nothing on and no appreciation of customers does not cut the mustard and pubs need to do more to get people in and stop moaning about cheap beer in Tesco.

McMurphy

Hard days graft finally over.....

10000maniacs

The price of alcohol in Ireland an incredible 75% higher than the EU average.
Yet there is no evidence that levels of alcoholism are any worse in European countries where the prices are much cheaper, like Spain, France and Poland.
I think that minimum pricing is pure hyperbole invented by politicians with a vested interest in keeping prices high. Maybe there is a pub in their extended family and when they see 24 slabs of Guinness in Tesco at Christmas for €24 they think of their family members who are struggling to sell their pints for €6 in the family pub. It's all hyperbole and twisted agendas.
And why should sensible drinkers be coughing up to fund treatment for alcoholics. I don't get the reason why there should be a connection there? Surely that is the responsibility of the health services.

hatrickpatrick

Seanad was just adjourned. I'm pretty confused as to what's happened TBH, will have to read up on it all tomorrow - they're talking about discussing it again next stage on Tuesday next, which would imply that it's not going to be filibustered and withdrawn like last time

elperello

10000maniacs wrote: »

The price of alcohol in Ireland an incredible 75% higher than the EU average.
Yet there is no evidence that levels of alcoholism are any worse in European countries where the prices are much cheaper, like Spain, France and Poland.
I think that minimum pricing is pure hyperbole invented by politicians with a vested interest in keeping prices high. Maybe there is a pub in their extended family and when they see 24 slabs of Guinness in Tesco at Christmas for €24 they think of their family members who are struggling to sell their pints for €6 in the family pub. It's all hyperbole and twisted agendas.
And why should sensible drinkers be coughing up to fund treatment for alcoholics. I don't get the reason why there should be a connection there? Surely that is the responsibility of the health services.

Even if they were setting up a fund to treat people who need it why should only the home drinkers fund it?
Those who drink in fancy restaurants and in the golf club won't pay a penny extra to help the people who need help.

Sam Quentin

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

weldoninhio wrote: »

Yeah, I remember reading about when prohibition hit in the USA, people just forgot about alcohol. How long have cannabis, cocaine and heroin advertising been banned?? Because you never hear of people using those. Especially the younger generation!!

Prohibition.
Now there's a good idea.......

Phil.x

Don't be fooled into thinking the government are concerned about your health, all they are concerned is about extra revenue and not upsetting the drinks companys too much if at all.
Also they are trying to drum up business for their pub owner TD'S. Money money money it's so funny

Sam Quentin

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Leroy42 wrote: »

But that goes against the evidence in the last number of years of reducing alcohol levels? Do you put that totally down to lack of funds as that is the only way that you can then assume that MUP will have the effects you seem to think.

It is interesting that you mention the younger generation as I think (but I readily admit that I don't know) that this is where the reduction is coming from and it has not much to do with price levels.

We are moving towards a greater influence of health and fitness. Triathlon, marathon running, MAMILS etc etc. People are playing sport far longer into their adult lives than previously and people are more health conscious.

This is naturally seen even more so in younger adults who have probably been doing sport for years. My own daughters are very involved in sport, something my sisters were not at the same age.

This is what is having the impact and the pubs are seeing it the hardest as their products are simply too expensive. People will always head to the pub for the special occasions but the era of the only thing to do was the pub is, I believe, past us.

So I don't believe that this bill, as currently proposed, will actually achieve what they are claiming (now) is its aim. It is clearly aimed at getting more people back into the pub.

I appreciate you comments on my attitude. I posted them to try to show that I am not against this bill out of some 2don't you dare touch my pint" attitude but rather that we actually deal with the problems instead of caving in to vested interests with the veil of doing something

You put forward the only understandable comments and posts about why this bill shouldn't go ahead..
You don't promote drinking which is a good thing.
I'm looking at it differently now thanks to your straight forward honest answers/explanations.
I just seen an awful lot of destruction due to alcohol consumption, and let me tell you it's an eye opener and would put any man in my line of work of drink(maybe forever)
Anyway fair play to you..

10000maniacs

elperello wrote: »

Even if they were setting up a fund to treat people who need it why should only the home drinkers fund it?
Those who drink in fancy restaurants and in the golf club won't pay a penny extra to help the people who need help.

Even these people should not be responsible for funding alcoholism treatment in this country. There is no correlation between alcoholism and drink prices.
It really annoyed me when nanny Varadkar starting talking rubbish on this issue when he was health minister.

elperello

10000maniacs wrote: »

Even these people should not be responsible for funding alcoholism treatment in this country. There is no correlation between alcoholism and drink prices.
It really annoyed me when nanny Varadkar starting talking rubbish on this issue when he was health minister.

Varadkar clearly sees this as an open goal and an easy way to get a bit of his "legacy" in place.

goose2005

Noveight wrote: »

The problem is you believe a change in legislation will solve Ireland's problematic relationship with alcohol.

It won't.

What's so problematic? Ireland's alcohol issues are unexceptional. Look at any country in the world, it's similar or worse.

goose2005

The Hill Billy wrote: »

A "message to the people of Ireland"? Get off your generalizing high horse. The majority of the people in the country do not abuse alcohol. Those who do will continue to abuse alcohol regardless of the price - even it it means that they (or their dependents) forego a meal or two to pay for their expensive gargle.

Or worse, turn to smuggled alcohol - more money for the lads making a fortune from smuggled cigarettes. Or make their own moonshine, or drink surrogate alcohol. Last Xmas 62 Russians were killed after drinking bath lotion - if vodka becomes €30 a bottle, I'm sure some Irish homeless will start looking at mouthwash or methylated spirits.

VinLieger wrote: »

Turned it off after that eejit claimed "we have to pass this soon, the public expect it and want it"

I think he meant to say "publicans"...

goose2005

elperello wrote: »

Varadkar clearly sees this as an open goal and an easy way to get a bit of his "legacy" in place.

Most Irish politicians achieve little of consequence in office. MicheMartin's only real highlight was the smoking ban, I suppose Leo wants a similar legacy

hatrickpatrick

F*ck. It's passed the committee stage. :mad:

Anyone know how easily it can get stalled or blocked from here on out? Is that the main hurdle over?

Kermit.de.frog

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

I'm trying to get my head around the poll. So if you disagree you also agree Ireland has no drinking problem among it's populace and it's government fake news

elperello

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm trying to get my head around the poll. So if you disagree you also agree Ireland has no drinking problem among it's populace and it's government fake news

Go on have wrestle with your conscience

Your vote is important to us:D

VinLieger

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

F*ck. It's passed the committee stage. :mad:

Anyone know how easily it can get stalled or blocked from here on out? Is that the main hurdle over?

Balls, i dont know enough about the process unfortunately, looks like ill be buying wine and beer kits this weekend to stock up for christmas

Zubeneschamali

Sam Quentin wrote: »

When most people who understand and see the devastating effects alcohol has on families and society in general... At the same time we have people who choose to have a blind eye on this, they sit there complaining and protesting about what I would consider a small step towards getting people to cut down on alcohol consumption....

This bill is not intended to reduce consumption, it is intended to increase sales in pubs. Check the 2011 Fine Gael manifesto, where they tell the truth and openly push this policy as a support for the Vintners.

Now, of course, they are disguising it as a health measure to sell it. A real health measure (which I would support) would be to increase excise on alcohol - all alcohol, sold everywhere. Consumption would go down, revenue would go to the government. But your TD's brother-in-law is a publican, so that won't fly.

McMurphy

Here's where I see the responsible drinker will get punished.

As a self employed individual, I work some weeks 50-60 hours.

I like to unwind some evenings with a can of beer (I usually go for Polish beer as I find it better tbh) I can grab 4 cans for €6 (Zywiec 5.6%) last night I had 2.

Under these proposed changes, I am going to be forced to pay exceptionally more, because of the tiny minority they claim they wish to target?

It's a sop to the Vintners. Plain and simple.


I will most probably continue to drink my polish beer, but tbh I will source it now in 24 can trays from Polish truck drivers.

End result = lost revenue to the exchequer and I still will very, very seldom go to the pub.

2smiggy

if they are worried about consumption, then should not the price per unit be tied to your earnings. The likes of the politicians/vintners pushing this should pay €10 a can (for their own health and well being and all that) where as some one on minimum wage can still buy a can at €1 ?

We can all remember former minister Jim McDaid driving drunk up the wrong side of a duel carriage way

link here

He can well afford to buy drink at the new prices, but surely a steeper price for him might stop him putting people in danger again ?

VinLieger

2smiggy wrote: »

if they are worried about consumption, then should not the price per unit be tied to your earnings. The likes of the politicians/vintners pushing this should pay €10 a can (for their own health and well being and all that) where as some one on minimum wage can still buy a can at €1 ?

We can all remember former minister Jim McDaid driving drunk up the wrong side of a duel carriage way

link here

He can well afford to buy drink at the new prices, but surely a steeper price for him might stop him putting people in danger again ?

They arent worried about consumption thats a front for digging out the VFI, the proof of that is consumption has been steadily decreasing since the mid 2000's

2smiggy

VinLieger wrote: »

They arent worried about consumption thats a front for digging out the VFI, the proof of that is consumption has been steadily decreasing since the mid 2000's

ah I know, just pointing out they would not do something that would affect their own pockets.

elperello

So called expert Dr Garrett McGovern on radio just now saying that this Bill on it's own won't change our drinking culture.

They're only getting going lads!

VinLieger

2smiggy wrote: »

ah I know, just pointing out they would not do something that would affect their own pockets.

It is going to affect everyone though, premium brands will up their prices to stay above the cheaper brands new minimum baseline, everything will increase