Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118416722#Comment_118416722

If you overprice a product to the point of absurdity, where do you think people will go instead? Tobacco sales are plummeting because the government got greedy and have been continually greedy each budget - the money that is dropping is instead going to people who are providing the same product for cheaper (black market).

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118416733#Comment_118416733

when I was a kids everyone drank in the pub but the government got greedy and eventually they broke the camels back. Same with the smokes. Load of nanny state nonsense

dxhound2005

The blame game is very strong in that post. Also making up stuff, like almost everything is illegal.

Neamhshuntasach

When the studies that apparently show MUP having positive effects due to lower alcohol sales are shared as an example of it working, how do they account for the change in behavior from people in relation to consuming alcohol? Or of those in a quest to become inebriated?

For example, how are the below factored into these studies?

Why buy 6 cans when you can get a bottle a vodka for not too much more and get more drunk? Probably more relevant to a crowd pre-drinking or house parties. 6 cans = 3 liters while a bottle of vodka could be 700 mls. Is this recorded as a reduction in alcohol sales?

Drugs becoming more attractive due to being cheaper. Again for the going out crowd as i doubt many would probably trade their few cans in at a weekend for a bag of coke. But pills, coke and mdma definitely become more attractive. And just because drug deaths may have been increasing year on year, it doesn't mean that MUP did not have an effect. You don't have to die within a year of taking drugs for it to have a negative affect on health overall and use it as a positive for MUP don't turning people to drugs. I doubt many are dying after a few pills or a bag of coke on a week to week basis. It's more a long term thing.

Home brewing kits. Have sales of these been factored in? I know i'll be looking into it more as will a lot of mates. I reckon a lot of people will get into home brewing across the country. Also a dodgy beer might taste crap or make you a bit sick if not done right. But if people get into messing with spirits, that can kill you if not done correctly.

Sales in the black market. Have these been considered? Alcoholics after the harder stuff will drink anything and will find a way to drink regardless of price. Might end up in drinking some shite that should not be near the human body. At least in shops the contents are regulated and what is in them is known. Can't say the same for some unlabeled bottle of spirits that will be much cheaper and with who knows what in it.

When it becomes expensive to drink at home. People might say fúck it and go to the pub instead. Depending on environment, it might be easy for certain people to just head back after 2 or 3. Pubs can trap you and you can get caught up in a session. But guess pub pints don't impact your health according to MUP. Also with bookies being close to most pubs, might have people gambling that didn't do it before or as much. While not an impact on health, there is a wide reaching impact on families.

The MUP studies show that low income and high alcohol consuming households did not alter behavior. Low income implies not much disposable income, if any. So what is being foregone to allow the alcohol consumption continue? Is it food? Heating? Christmas/birthday presents for kids? Rent money being dipped into? Is a holistic analysis being considered at all?

Have impact on economy been considered? Like off licenses or supermarkets close to borders been analyzed for reduction in sales and a correlated increase in sales over the border? I fail to see how this will not send people up north. Within 10 minutes 7 of us have sorted a trip up north next weekend. And i will do this regularly. I'm not a big drinker by any stretch. But when i add up my yearly consumption is has a cost. Lets call this x. If i now this up north it will also have a cost. Let's call this y. y is going to be much cheaper than x. So i will save money. I will also look at bringing drink back from holidays abroad too. Something i have never really done. Doubt i'll be alone on this.

All the factors above can result in reduced alcohol sales and if using this metric. It can look like alcohol consumption is down. But is it really? And is something worse than alcohol being put into bodies as a substitute in some cases too? The alcohol related deaths in Scotland looked to be declining prior to the introduction of MUP. I have seen a few references on twitter saying that they increased in 2020 and 2021. But didn't search for sources so not sure how true that is. If they did increase, there is also probably likely to be a few alcohol related deaths labelled as covid deaths.

I just find this whole MUP thing a bit mad and short sighted. The alcohol culture can't be changed via price increases. It needs to be through education and community support services. I could get behind a tax if it mean money was transparently going back into services. But MUP brings no such money in to allow that. I simply don't get it.

Padre_Pio

MUP is just the easiest answer to a complex problem.

Want to reduce the amount people drink? Just increase the price and reduce access. It's been heading this way for years, with off-license hours, barriers to off-license sections in supermarkets and now MUP.

How about we tackle the root cause of alcoholism and associated anti-social behaviour? Nahh.. too much effort

MUP will do nothing to stop people buying alcohol. People have no issues spending €20 on a triple vodka and red bull in a nightclub, why would MUP put them off buying cans? the only impact will be that they drink a better class of beer.

AndrewJRenko

I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118414860#Comment_118414860

You know that they've done the research, right? They didn't just come up with this idea off the cuff.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118416981#Comment_118416981

MUP will do nothing, or you can reduce consumption by increasing the price?? Which is it?

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417001#Comment_118417001

Zero public support for this and they jumped ahead with it despite NI not proceeding, sounds like they did their “research” alright. Our government are great at hair brained simpleton ideas but this one really takes the fuckin cake.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417001#Comment_118417001

Eh, there's really not a lot to suggest that they actually did do that research. This is something specifically and extensively lobbied for by vintners while there were vastly legislatively simpler methods to do it if it was for public health reasons.

AndrewJRenko

I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415205#Comment_118415205

There's one;

https://twitter.com/carraigeen/status/1477041591349039109

AndrewJRenko

I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417028#Comment_118417028

If we had waited for public support for the smoking ban, we'd still be waiting. Yet it has dramatically improved the environment and reduced the number of smokers.

fritzelly

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417045#Comment_118417045

Well done, you found one

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417056#Comment_118417056

I forgot the smoking ban gave more money directly to the people making cigarettes......

They could have added more excise if this was about the publics health and ringfenced the extra cash for health purposes but they didn't because that would affect the vintners, this is solely about punishing people for not drinking in pubs.

dxhound2005

It's not fair to say there is zero support for MUP. The poll at the start of the thread shows 2% support. The OP set the tone with their references to North Korea, Hitler and the Nazis. They have disappeared from Boards since.

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417056#Comment_118417056

Smoking ban had some support, this has zero. Nobody wanted this and nobody asked for this and if they were so sure about bringing it in, it should have been put to the people (which would have also been a landslide NO).

Anyway talk on an Internet forum is cheap, people need to put their money where their mouth is on this topic. I have a list of all VFI pubs in my city - none of them will be seeing another cent from me. I’ll be going up North to buy my drink and as soon as the “man with a van” style services pop up I’ll be using them. Basically anything I can do that will stop the cash I spend on drink going to this government will be done from now on, they can **** right off.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417117#Comment_118417117

It would not be one of the things which could be put to a referendum.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417056#Comment_118417056

Ah yes, because smoking in public buildings is totally equivalent to purchasing alcohol in an off-sales environment. Idiotic post.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118416733#Comment_118416733

So raising the price does decrease consumption. Forget the black market cause the kids are not flocking to it they are just not smoking anywhere near old levels.

I said dont mention the fags if you are anti MUP because it will prove their point and now here you are saying it proves their point.

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417135#Comment_118417135

Pure naivety. Raising the price does not decrease anything since the whole system is based on a supply and demand - if you price something too high I will find the same thing for cheaper and get it there. Same thing will happen here.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417135#Comment_118417135

Alcohol sales here have been dropping year on year despite alcohol being 'too cheap' here.

Alcohol consumption here dropped 6.5 percent in 2020 despite pubs being closed and people doing more drinking at home at off sales prices v more expensive on sales.

MUP is not needed to reduce alcohol consumption but if you really want to... close the pubs.

AndrewJRenko

I agree because we have drinking problems in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417126#Comment_118417126

No-one mentioned 'totally equivalent'. It's a fair analogy in relation to government implementation of public health measures. We were all told about the revolution that would happen if the smoking ban was brought in.

There was no revolution, and most people now realise it was a good thing.

Idiotic post.

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417208#Comment_118417208

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-is-the-most-expensive-country-in-the-eu-to-buy-alcohol-40624162.html

What’s so good about it then? We were already the most expensive country to buy drink in, what does this nonsense achieve? (Apart from sending a train full of gold out of the country to NI for the foreseeable future)

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417135#Comment_118417135

Education decreases consumption of harmful substances. Price just means you have to get creative, black market fags for example. Or recreational drugs instead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417208#Comment_118417208

And tell us AndrewJenko, what public health measure does this achieve?

dxhound2005

Sterling is very expensive to buy now.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118416447#Comment_118416447

I think it's a situation where they would have to do a extremely deep dive into the consumption habits of all kinds of different people.

There will be some households where that extra booze expenditure will just be offset by spending less money elsewhere. Big problem if people on a tight budget with an alcohol issue are, for example, spending less on clothes or food for their kids.

I don't know why the assumption is that if we charge more for booze then absolutely everyone will be discouraged. This simply isn't true. Some people will reduce their consumption, yes, but has it really been established which demographics are likely to reduce their consumption and which will keep on drinking regardless and neglect other areas of their life?

It may be that people who have a drink or two at the weekend will decide to not bother while people who have a daily drinking habit will just think "Ok but I can spend a bit less on food and other items to keep my booze habit going". This would show up as a reduction in alcohol sales and consumption at a high level but on a more granular level you could actually be making an already existing social issue worse.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118416981#Comment_118416981

I love those Barriers, makes buying booze feel like a real treat or experience, almost naughty.

I probably go in more now than before the barriers

SleetAndSnow

For all these smoking arguments, recent studies show smoking is actually increasing among young adults, after years of decline... And as a young adult, it's fairly true

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/smoking-rates-among-irish-teenagers-on-the-rise-after-more-than-two-decades-of-decline-40870216.html

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417304#Comment_118417304

It reduces the buying power of binge and problem drinkers, who were not well served by having cheap and nasty sub-one Euro grog readily available to them.

Will there be lost sales to Northern Ireland, generally speaking? Yes, definitely.

Will those sales be from those who would consume very cheap drink heretofore? No, not much at all.

And so it is a net beneficial health measure. Nobody ever said it was a panacea though, let's not pretend otherwise.

Damien360

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417454#Comment_118417454

That’s caused by E-cigarettes making smoking look acceptable again. What I see in general (in my opinion) is a lot of teenagers using those E-cigs, then those in mid twenties smoking cigarettes (have money…will spend ?) a gap to the next big group of 50’s and over using E-cigs. The 30’s and 40’s group seem to not be smoking in the same numbers as younger and older. If you want to extrapolate to the drinking argument, I would argue that cheap spirits in comparison to beer will drive a new market away from beers and the minimum pricing will have solved nothing, if anything, it may cause bigger issues.

sporina

will my 4 cans of Bud on the weekend go up in price?