Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Zubeneschamali

Philip Clean Ruler wrote: »

Do you not think the same will happen with off-licenses and supermarkets.

No.

Time will tell, i suppose.

ohnonotgmail

osarusan wrote: »

The shop could come under pressure from the German beer producer to raise prices to differentiate them from the swill that was cheaper but is now priced the same.

The shop could also come under pressure from producer of said swill to raise the prices of other beers, as the producer of swill know virtually nobody buys their swill for reasons other than price.

Is it not more likely that they will stop selling the cheap rubbish because the reason for its existence no longer exists?

Zubeneschamali

osarusan wrote: »

The shop could come under pressure from the German beer producer to raise prices to differentiate them from the swill that was cheaper but is now priced the same.

Heineken and Guinness have lots of management layers in Ireland micromanaging this stuff.

Franziskaner management probably can't point to Ireland on a map, but they know who Lidl are.

osarusan

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is it not more likely that they will stop selling the cheap rubbish because the reason for its existence no longer exists?

Sure, that might happen in some cases, but a shop like Lidl or Aldi would lose a serious amount of their range of alcohol (not just beer either) if they simply didn't stock the products that would be affected.

Just thinking about the beer, I think almost every beer in Aldi would be affected - very few are sold for over €2 for a 500ml bottle. O'Shea's are something of a premium brand at €1.89.

Glenster

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Philip Clean Ruler wrote: »

Heineken (though I think they came to an agreement) and Guinness refuse to allow their products be sold in weatherpersons as they feel they are not charging enough to distinguish between themselves and budget brands.

Do you not think the same will happen with off-licenses and supermarkets.

False. They refuse to sell in Weatherspoons because of a disagreement over the terms of sale.

Ask any public house hotel in Ireland Diageo and Heineken have the most onerous terms of sale I've ever seen, basically payment up front, weatherspoons refuse to operate that system.

Zubeneschamali

osarusan wrote: »

a shop like Lidl or Aldi would lose a serious amount of their range of alcohol (not just beer either) if they simply didn't stock the products that would be affected.

So change their range.

It would be rank insanity to try and sell a €1 can of Galahad for €2 when quality German beer is available at that price. Those products are simply going to vanish off shelves.

ohnonotgmail

osarusan wrote: »

Sure, that might happen in some cases, but a shop like Lidl or Aldi would lose a serious amount of their range of alcohol (not just beer either) if they simply didn't stock the products that would be affected.

Just thinking about the beer, I think almost every beer in Aldi would be affected - very few are sold for over €2 for a 500ml bottle. O'Shea's are something of a premium brand at €1.89.

I dont think there is issue for brands that are at or about the minimum price. I do think brands that are significantly below the minimum price will just disappear. Why would anybody pay significantly more than they do now when they can get better beers at the same price?

KungPao

Any loopholes I wonder?

Like e.g. supermarket sells 8 cans for €16 but throw in a free pizza worth €4.

pilly

KungPao wrote: »

Any loopholes I wonder?

Like e.g. supermarket sells 8 cans for €16 but throw in a free pizza worth €4.

That's a good point, they often do deals for a fiver where you get starter, pizza, desert for a fiver.

osarusan

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So change their range.

It would be rank insanity to try and sell a €1 can of Galahad for €2 when quality German beer is available at that price. Those products are simply going to vanish off shelves.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont think there is issue for brands that are at or about the minimum price. I do think brands that are significantly below the minimum price will just disappear. Why would anybody pay significantly more than they do now when they can get better beers at the same price?

I agree that of course it's the cheap crap that will be most affected. Dutch Gold, for example, is only sold in Ireland and has nothing going for it other than its price. I don't know what will happen to that. Others I suppose will just leave the Irish market.

But I don't think it's as simple as saying X, Y, and Z disappear and everything else stays the same. Price and price positioning is part of a sales strategy, and that strategy will be affected by a minimum price.

With a reduced/new range of products, there's no guarantee that the German beer at €2 represents the value it did before, and that there's no reason for it to change price.

Glenster

Glenster wrote: »

False. They refuse to sell in Weatherspoons because of a disagreement over the terms of sale.

Ask any public house hotel in Ireland Diageo and Heineken have the most onerous terms of sale I've ever seen, basically payment up front, weatherspoons refuse to operate that system.

..

Next up was Heineken. When JD Wetherspoon first came to town, the brewer said nothing, but as the weeks passed it grew unhappy to see the pub upstart charging €2.95 for its “premium product”.
Or at least the intervention of some publicans made it less than pleased. As the evenings drew in last autumn, Heineken stopped supplying its beers to Wetherspoon in Dublin on the back of other publicans’ complaints directly to it about the pricing there.
In response Wetherspoon pulled Heineken’s products from its entire network of almost 1,000 pubs across the UK,

Zubeneschamali

I think even Heineken and Guinness will have to be careful - they can't jack up their ordinary products too much in the off-license without letting the craft brewers in to compete.

I can get 4 craft beers for €10 most days in Tesco, €2.50 a bottle. If Heino gets too far above itself, it'll be competing with those, and it just can't.

Heino already has a fake Craft beer brand, Cute Hoor, in this space. Guinness has been trying to craftify Smithwicks with Pale Ale, Blonde, summer and winter specials, and released Hophouse 13 hoppy lager, too.

If regular Heino and Carlsberg take a price hike, then either they get closer to these products, or the crafty stuff also takes a hike, making it less competitive with real craft beer.

And the craft brewers will be jumping at the chance to expand, not dutifully jacking up prices to match since they all deservedly hate Heineken and Diageo.

Cantona's Collars

I await the day to witness the local al fresco drinkers in my town sitting on park benches or by the river drinking Craft Beer as they end up the same price as Dutch Gold or Galahad.

Zubeneschamali

zerks wrote: »

I await the day to witness the local al fresco drinkers in my town sitting on park benches or by the river drinking Craft Beer as they end up the same price as Dutch Gold or Galahad.

I think it is more likely that they will be swigging Budweiser because Dutch Gold and Galahad are no longer on sale. Craft beer is already more than €2 a can.

Cantona's Collars

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think it is more likely that they will be swigging Budweiser because Dutch Gold and Galahad are no longer on sale. Craft beer is already more than €2 a can.

Maybe they will become more discerning and drink craft beer then call it a hobby rather than a drink problem.:)

Leroy42

The whole craft beer is a massive success of marketing over reality.

Fine, you don't like the more mainstream stuff like Heineken etc, but please, don't try to pretend that your are doing some higher service by paying extra for some cinnamon flavour or special bottle shape.

There is no justification for the higher prices that the artisan beer charge, expect of course they happen to have convinced everyone that brewing normally is simple but what they do is lovingly prepared by Swedish virgins who only ever see daylight and live at 5000m meters so are untouched by modern pollution.

You are still just drinking a beer, get over yourself.

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think even Heineken and Guinness will have to be careful - they can't jack up their ordinary products too much in the off-license without letting the craft brewers in to compete.

I can get 4 craft beers for €10 most days in Tesco, €2.50 a bottle. If Heino gets too far above itself, it'll be competing with those, and it just can't.

Heino already has a fake Craft beer brand, Cute Hoor, in this space. Guinness has been trying to craftify Smithwicks with Pale Ale, Blonde, summer and winter specials, and released Hophouse 13 hoppy lager, too.

If regular Heino and Carlsberg take a price hike, then either they get closer to these products, or the crafty stuff also takes a hike, making it less competitive with real craft beer.

And the craft brewers will be jumping at the chance to expand, not dutifully jacking up prices to match since they all deservedly hate Heineken and Diageo.

Your assuming people are only drinking cheap beers or Heineken, Gunnness etc rather than craft beers because they are cheaper. In most instances this is not the case as they drink them because they like them. Also craft beers are rarely session beers, not many people will go out and drink 12 or 14 bottles (also annoying as bottles are harder to dispose of) of craft beer as it will blow your head off.

Don't get me wrong I like to try out different craft beers and have a bottle or two every now and then but I still prefer Bavaria and will buy it even if its the same price as a craft beer, particularly when there will be double digit amounts of cans drank.

ohnonotgmail

Leroy42 wrote: »

The whole craft beer is a massive success of marketing over reality.

Fine, you don't like the more mainstream stuff like Heineken etc, but please, don't try to pretend that your are doing some higher service by paying extra for some cinnamon flavour or special bottle shape.

There is no justification for the higher prices that the artisan beer charge, expect of course they happen to have convinced everyone that brewing normally is simple but what they do is lovingly prepared by Swedish virgins who only ever see daylight and live at 5000m meters so are untouched by modern pollution.

You are still just drinking a beer, get over yourself.

so the fact that they dont enjoy the economies of scale of mainstream brewers is irrelevant? Or that you get more bang for your buck because they generally have a higher abv?

Leroy42

They also don't have the massive marketing spend, the endorsements, the large corporations to fund. Clearly they are making super profits, albeit on a much smaller scale. If there wasn't massive money in it you wouldn't have the explosion in the industry.

If a guy at home can produce his own beer at 50c a pint (and that is a massive stretch), what is the justification for the craft beer? Not saying they need to be cheaper, if they can get people to pay more then good for them, I have no problem with that.

ohnonotgmail

Leroy42 wrote: »

They also don't have the massive marketing spend, the endorsements, the large corporations to fund. Clearly they are making super profits, albeit on a much smaller scale. If there wasn't massive money in it you wouldn't have the explosion in the industry.

If a guy at home can produce his own beer at 50c a pint (and that is a massive stretch), what is the justification for the craft beer? Not saying they need to be cheaper, if they can get people to pay more then good for them, I have no problem with that.

i think perhaps you need some lessons in economics.

BrokenArrows

Deedsie wrote: »

...

I think the only thing the government can do that the majority of people could get behind would be to stop alcohol advertising.

...

I think this is actually a reasonable suggestion.
I dont think any drinker cares if its advertised or not but its a much harder to accomplish.

The smoking industry put a huge amount of money into fighting the ban on advertising of cigarettes and it took a huge amount of time to pass this law.

The drinks industry would do exactly the same.

Leroy42

This is moving OT so I'll leave the Craft beer there.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So change their range.

It would be rank insanity to try and sell a €1 can of Galahad for €2 when quality German beer is available at that price. Those products are simply going to vanish off shelves.

Or alternatively, it'd be rank insanity to sell a higher-quality beer for only €2 when you can get away with charging €3.50 for it because the cheaper options have just become less cheap.

If Franzikaner or whatever costs €0.95 per unit for a supermarket to get on the shelf, Galahad costs €0.65, and you can't sell your cheapest beer for less than €2, which one is it going to be?

Jayop

Deedsie wrote: »

I think the only thing the government can do that the majority of people could get behind would be to stop alcohol advertising.

At sporting events anyway.

There is a definite problem with alcohol misuse in Ireland and it needs to be addressed. I don't envy the government trying to sort it out. It's an ingrained cultural problem in our society.

Gambling advertising seems to be a bigger problem to me now anyway. If they banned Alcohol ads then the gambling firms would be the ones sponsoring almost everything and the massive problem there would be bigger.

People drinking isn't price dependent. If you put the price of alcohol up then people will simply spend more to drink the same.

9or10

entropi wrote: »

Because people who are dependent on alcohol, both functioning and non-functioning alcoholics, will still somehow find the cash to buy this already overpriced alcohol, thus a win for the brewer and seller. Profits win here, not health.

Maybe Baby - but.

• Surely the majority of vintners revenue does not come from alchoholics
• If the price goes up Mr and Mrs Sensible do their shoppin in Newry - vintners revenues go down.

Deedsie

Deedsie wrote: »

I think the only thing the government can do that the majority of people could get behind would be to stop alcohol advertising.

At sporting events anyway.

There is a definite problem with alcohol misuse in Ireland and it needs to be addressed. I don't envy the government trying to sort it out. It's an ingrained cultural problem in our society.

Stopping alcohol advertising is a nonsense argument imo. Advertising has no influence on how much or what people drink.

It does on the other had keep many sporting organizations going, where is the money going to come from to replace it if it was cancelled. The money for funding underage sports etc would dry up very fast in many areas without the money being pumped in by alcohol advertising.

9or10 wrote: »

• Surely the majority of vintners revenue does not come from alchoholics
• .

You would be surprised, one or two bar flies drinking 10 pints a day each would cover the wages of the bar man for the day making other money coming in from other drinkers go to profits much quicker.

Leroy42

Philip Clean Ruler wrote: »

Stopping alcohol advertising is a nonsense argument imo. Advertising has no influence on how much or what people drink.

I would love to see the research done to back this claim up. You will single handedly destroy the entire marketing industry.

andekwarhola

"Leroy42 wrote: »

If a guy at home can produce his own beer at 50c a pint (and that is a massive stretch), what is the justification for the craft beer?

While I'm not cheerleading higher prices for the sake of it (some strike me as too high although I don't run a craft brewery so what would I know), comparing brewing beer in commercial quantities with knocking out 50 bottles of hooch at home is a bit mad.

You're also have to look at the costs of small to medium breweries versus the product and supply scale of super brewers and also the general price gouging for all products in ireland.

There's plenty of decent so called craft beer that not majorly overpriced compared to so called mainstream stuff. There's plenty of stuff in the 5% to 6. 5 % range in and around 3 quid that significantly stronger than your Heinekens and Guinness.

The far more expensive craft beers tend to be stuff like Imperials that are obviously a more premium (and often *much* stronger in abv) product.

You can say something is 'premium' without denigrating the non premium. Either are grand in their own way and time, but the former is usually a more complex product.

On the point of JDW, I'm almost certain the beef with Heineken was that the brand would be 'devalued' by being 'underpriced' in their outlets. They're used to other pubs here accepting the monopoly game.

Jayop

Philip Clean Ruler wrote: »

Stopping alcohol advertising is a nonsense argument imo. Advertising has no influence on how much or what people drink.

It does on the other had keep many sporting organizations going, where is the money going to come from to replace it if it was cancelled. The money for funding underage sports etc would dry up very fast in many areas without the money being pumped in by alcohol advertising.

TBF if advertising didn't work then the drinks companies wouldn't be wasting a ton of money on it. Advertising effects both peoples choice of what to drink and how much they do drink.

I do agree though that banning advertising in sport for example would cause huge problems in Ireland. For one thing we're too small a market to do it effectively. If for example a Premier League team are sponsored by Guinness then how would the ban work? Would their games and highlights not be shown? Would their team photos be banned from the papers?

darkpagandeath

Jayop wrote: »

TBF if advertising didn't work then the drinks companies wouldn't be wasting a ton of money on it. Advertising effects both peoples choice of what to drink and how much they do drink.

I do agree though that banning advertising in sport for example would cause huge problems in Ireland. For one thing we're too small a market to do it effectively. If for example a Premier League team are sponsored by Guinness then how would the ban work? Would their games and highlights not be shown? Would their team photos be banned from the papers?

What companies advertising has decided what you drink and how much just curious ?