Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Mimon

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Make your own. All the kit is in Homebrew West.

While I enjoy brewing bottling is a pain in the hoop. If you factor in your own labour it is dearer per litre of beer.

odyssey06

yoyo wrote: »

I'd be interested to know what the EUs stance on this is? Would wine exporters in the likes of France for example not be concerned? I'm surprised at the silence from Europe here.

Spain made such vague murmurings about damaging competition but it wasn't a full scale objection. The Scottish version I think was challenged in Europe and kicked to touch by the European court as a matter for domestic courts.

"The Court of Justice considers that the effect of the Scottish legislation is significantly to restrict the market, and this might be avoided by the introduction of a tax measure designed to increase the price of alcohol instead of a measure imposing a minimum price per unit of alcohol. The court states that it is ultimately for the national court to determine whether measures other than that provided for by the Scottish legislation, such as increased taxation on alcoholic drinks, are capable of protecting human life and health as effectively as the current legislation, while being less restrictive of trade in those products within the EU."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35160396#:~:text=The%20European%20Court%20of%20Justice,Scottish%20Parliament%20in%20May%202012.

Of course, the governments in Ireland and Scotland have shown no such thing.

FileNotFound

yoyo wrote: »

What amazes me with this nonsense is they are starting to introduce it presumably when pubs reopen (although knowing this banana republic who knows if pubs will even be fully open by next January! :pac: ). So with the obvious increase of alcohol consumption starting next year potentially when pubs reopen, how will they measure the effectiveness with MUP? Will they use the increased alcohol consumption next year to further increase the minimum unit price? Is there a maximum unit price?!

I was amazed to notice in Copenhagen 3 years ago the off sale beer (and talking Tuborg/Carlsberg here, not their "dutch gold" equivalents) prices were actually inline if not cheaper than here. I was expecting it to be considerably dearer. Drinking out was basically temple bar prices, but in a country where the average salary is far higher than ours with a cost of living reflecting it.

I'd be interested to know what the EUs stance on this is? Would wine exporters in the likes of France for example not be concerned? I'm surprised at the silence from Europe here.

I think I recall Scotland being in the EU courts over it when they wanted to bring it in, As it is in I assume it was judged to be legal under EU law.

You actually think anyone will bother to measure the impact? If drinking drops this will get the credit, if it does not drop they will increase again most likely.

Nobody ever checked if the early close time for off licences had any impact - no reports, reviews or discussion at all.

It is my understanding that drinking in ireland has been on a steady decline between 2005 and 2019 Something like 30% drop over the period - so there is no correlation between the current prices and consumption as consumption was already dropping.

Assuming this trend continues, the advocates of this will claim this as their doing even though its just a changing ireland. Sad old situation.

Hotblack Desiato

biko wrote: »

This thread have been going on 4 years now. Is it very nigh nigh now?

1st January nigh enough for you? Legislation has been on the books for years but not activated. Cabinet decision this week to activate it from 1 Jan.

Hotblack Desiato

Macy0161 wrote: »

Pint Bottle of Bulmers was 6.50 about 4 years ago the last time I brought it in Town (not city centre either).

Not a beer and not craft but apart from that, totally relevant I'm sure!

How does that affect the price of, say, Guinness or Carlsberg?

FileNotFound

One thing i did not think of really is would this actually impact say Wetherspoons prices at all?

I assume even they have prices high enough that it would have limited to no effect.

ohnonotgmail

FileNotFound wrote: »

One thing i did not think of really is would this actually impact say Wetherspoons prices at all?

I assume even they have prices high enough that it would have limited to no effect.

it won't affect any pub prices. that is the point.

Doctor Jimbob

FileNotFound wrote: »

One thing i did not think of really is would this actually impact say Wetherspoons prices at all?

I assume even they have prices high enough that it would have limited to no effect.

They’ll be the next target no doubt. I wouldn’t be surprised to see minimum pub prices introduced that just coincidentally happen to line up with the lowest prices VFI members charge. In the interest of public health, of course.

ShamNNspace

Lies on news at one now

dubrov

dubrov wrote: »

Well we have a long history already of increasing the price of alcohol in Ireland.

Has it been effective at improving our relationship with alcohol?

Maybe it's time to look at other angles (see advertising/sponsorship)

To be honest, go the other extreme. Make it common as muck and cheap as chips and people might just grow up a bit.

Go to Central or Eastern Europe and you can buy a beer:

- In McDonalds
- In the train station
- On intercity buses
- In the gym.

It's no big deal. Being drunk and disorderly however is a big deal and is not tolerated.

Can we please adopt that model here?

ShamNNspace

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Lies on news at one now

Heard it. Shocking stuff.

The retailers slightly south of the border have a point though. If a bottle of Jameson is 5 quid cheaper in Newry than it is in Monaghan town, then I'm going to go to Newry and get a couple of bottles, and while I'm there, I might as well do the weekly shop, and I might pick up a new suit while I'm there too.

Savings for me. Income for the guy in Monaghan town = £0

Hotblack Desiato

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it won't affect any pub prices. that is the point.

Yes apparently only off-licence alcohol can damage your health. Never ever heard of anyone passing out drunk after being in a pub either, or getting into a fight. Pub alcohol is magical stuff. Clearly the vintners reason to want us to forsake the evil offy and drink in their establishments instead is because they have nothing but our better interests at heart.

KrustyUCC

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Lies on news at one now

Who was on?


What we're they saying?

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes apparently only off-licence alcohol can damage your health. Never ever heard of anyone passing out drunk after being in a pub either, or getting into a fight. Pub alcohol is magical stuff. Clearly the vintners reason to want us to forsake the evil offy and drink in their establishments instead is because they have nothing but our better interests at heart.

Yes and all publicans make a mature sober analysis of their clients and decline drink to someone who has had enough. :rolleyes:

In 20 years of pub visits, I never saw anyone be declined drink in Ireland. Even the fella who fell over three times on the way to the bar got served.

Muahahaha

FileNotFound wrote: »

You actually think anyone will bother to measure the impact? If drinking drops this will get the credit, if it does not drop they will increase again most likely.

I can see how this will go already. MUP will bring about a boom in both home brewing and black market booze sold by the lads already doing black market cigarettes and tobacco. Homebrew and bootleg booze obviously wont show up in the official consumption figures which will go down as people find alternatives over paying through the nose for alcohol. Government will point to consumption being down and declaring victory because of MUP.

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Lies on news at one now

They said the republic is introducing it on Jan 1st 2022 but that the north is not in a position to introduce it until 2023 "at the earliest". So we are going to have a full year at least of people flooding up north to do their shopping and stock up on alcohol. Id say they government will be getting it in the ear off relaters in the south because people will do big massive shops up north.

10000maniacs

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, go the other extreme. Make it common as muck and cheap as chips and people might just grow up a bit.

Go to Central or Eastern Europe and you can buy a beer:

- In McDonalds
- In the train station
- On intercity buses
- In the gym.

It's no big deal. Being drunk and disorderly however is a big deal and is not tolerated.

Can we please adopt that model here?

Martin, Varadkar, Donnolly and co. get turned on by mothering the Irish nation. It's their fetish.
We don't have minds of our own and need to be saved from ourselves.

KrustyUCC

Stephen Donnelly "It is “not OK and not healthy” that some supermarkets are currently selling alcohol “cheaper than they are selling water”, according to the Minister for Health.

Drank Feighan "pocket money prices"

I'd love to know what the gombeens would call alcohol prices in the rest of Europe seeing as we have the second highest prices in Europe before MUP

gormdubhgorm

In answer to the OP's poll I am in the middle yes we do have a drinking problem in Ireland. It is a problem with the drinking culture and Ireland's relationship with drink.
That is beyond question.

The Dáil know this only too well while sitting in the Dáil bar! But will minimum pricing make a difference and save lives as Leo claims? It would be negligible as far as I am concerned. But it will definitely increase the takings for the Minister for Finance which is what it is really all about. Money, dressed up as a public health issue.

ohnonotgmail

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In answer to the OP's poll I am in the middle yes we do have a drinking problem in Ireland. It is problem with the drinking culture and Ireland's relationship with drink.
That is beyond question.

The Dáil know this only too well while sitting in the Dáil bar! But will minimum pricing make a difference and save lives as Leo claims? It would be negligible as far as I am concerned. But it will definitely increase the takings for the Minister for Finance which is what it is really all about. Money, dressed up as a public health issue.

but it won't do this. it isn't an increase in excise duty. they couldn't do that because that would affect the publicans as well and we can't be having that.

FileNotFound

10000maniacs wrote: »

Martin, Varadkar, Donnolly and co. get turned on by mothering the Irish nation. It's their fetish.
We don't have minds of our own and need to be saved from ourselves.

In fairness where was our opposition.. What are we paying the shinners for? They are utter tripe as an opposition unless its for a handy headline.

Overall when it comes to things like this seems the only decency in the Dail comes from the Healy Raes, who'd have thought they would be the ones to fight the fight that matters to us.

Shinners off covering up GDPR breaches while chasing some GP contract that matters nothing to the people who voted for them.

yoyo

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly "It is “not OK and not healthy” that some supermarkets are currently selling alcohol “cheaper than they are selling water”, according to the Minister for Health.

Drank Feighan "pocket money prices"

I'd love to know what the gombeens would call alcohol prices in the rest of Europe seeing as we have the second highest prices in Europe before MUP

It costs me €4.99 for 24 50cl bottles of water:
https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=296923532

Where can I purchase these 24 50cl bottles of beer for less or equal to that? I am very interested for Mr Donnelly to provide his sources :D

Doctor Jimbob

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly "It is “not OK and not healthy” that some supermarkets are currently selling alcohol “cheaper than they are selling water”, according to the Minister for Health.

Drank Feighan "pocket money prices"

I'd love to know what the gombeens would call alcohol prices in the rest of Europe seeing as we have the second highest prices in Europe before MUP

Someone should point out to that gobshíte that a) you can get water for feck all from your tap or a drinking fountain and b) he's clearly comparing "premium" water with the cheapest alcohol. According to tesco.ie, Tesco brand water is 26c per litre. Tesco brand lager is €1.50 per litre.

It's not a reasonable comparison and he knows it. Assuming he's not thick (which in fairness is up for debate) Donnelly is intentionally misleading the public.

JPup

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

May have already been covered here, but Sean Barrett Professor of Economics at Trinity made a good point in a letter to the Irish Times. If you are going to introduce minimum pricing, better to do it as a tax. For example, we have de facto minimum pricing on cigarettes and petrol but the majority of the sales price goes to the exchequer, not the retailer or manufacturer. As things stand, the benefit of the proposed minimum pricing for alcohol will go to the retailers and producers.

10000maniacs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In answer to the OP's poll I am in the middle yes we do have a drinking problem in Ireland. It is problem with the drinking culture and Ireland's relationship with drink.
That is beyond question.

The Dáil know this only too well while sitting in the Dáil bar! But will minimum pricing make a difference and save lives as Leo claims? It would be negligible as far as I am concerned. But it will definitely increase the takings for the Minister for Finance which is what it is really all about. Money, dressed up as a public health issue.

We don't have any bigger problem with alcohol than anywhere else. The big problem is the price of alcohol, especially in pubs. It always has been. The amount the government take in taxation. It has always meant that in Ireland, the family of an alcoholic suffered more financially in Ireland than anywhere else.
And then the cretins come up with this hairbrained scheme to make matters worse.

ohnonotgmail

JPup wrote: »

May have already been covered here, but Sean Barrett Professor of Economics at Trinity made a good point in a letter to the Irish Times. If you are going to introduce minimum pricing, better to do it as a tax. For example, we have de facto minimum pricing on cigarettes and petrol but the majority of the sales price goes to the exchequer, not the retailer or manufacturer. As things stand, the benefit of the proposed minimum pricing for alcohol will go to the retailers and producers.

increasing the excise duty on alcohol would be counterproductive. how would that benefit the publicans?

Fr Tod Umptious

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, go the other extreme. Make it common as muck and cheap as chips and people might just grow up a bit.

Go to Central or Eastern Europe and you can buy a beer:

- In McDonalds
- In the train station
- On intercity buses
- In the gym.

It's no big deal. Being drunk and disorderly however is a big deal and is not tolerated.

Can we please adopt that model here?

I really don't think we need the alcohol habits of Central and Eastern Europe

See the below report
https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/190430/Status-Report-on-Alcohol-and-Health-in-35-European-Countries.pdf

Central and Eastern European countries fare much worse that us when it comes to alcohol related deaths from injury, liver cirrhosis and cancer.

No thanks.

gormdubhgorm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but it won't do this. it isn't an increase in excise duty. they couldn't do that because that would affect the publicans as well and we can't be having that.

Ah Jayus I didn't think of that. It pointless so, a kind of 'we care' we want more money for caring, marketing trick.

ShamNNspace

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Who was on?


What we're they saying?

Feighan and for the life of me I can't see whats in it for him, dressing up a pig in all that finery

KrustyUCC

yoyo wrote: »

It costs me €4.99 for 24 50cl bottles of water:
https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=296923532

Where can I purchase these 24 50cl bottles of beer for less or equal to that? I am very interested for Mr Donnelly to provide his sources :D

Goes back a few years to this article


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/beer-cheaper-than-water-in-shops-30035540.html


Of course we never know which brand of water they were on about or if similar big bottles of water were available to break down the prices similar to alcohol packets


Alcohol prices were increased in the budget after that and the alcohol quoted in that article isn't the 'cheap strong alcohol' that MUP is about


It's a false comparison though


Donnelly knows it

VinLieger

JPup wrote: »

May have already been covered here, but Sean Barrett Professor of Economics at Trinity made a good point in a letter to the Irish Times. If you are going to introduce minimum pricing, better to do it as a tax. For example, we have de facto minimum pricing on cigarettes and petrol but the majority of the sales price goes to the exchequer, not the retailer or manufacturer. As things stand, the benefit of the proposed minimum pricing for alcohol will go to the retailers and producers.

But that would mean hiking prices for publicans too and as we know from the FG 2011 manifesto we cant allow that to happen.