Pope will vist Ireland in 2018(mod warning in Op)

ArKl0w

Simi wrote: »

It's not the same though. If the abuse had been covered up by FIFA, and they'd protected and moved around the soccer coaches allowing them to continue abusing kids, and then intimidated the victims who came forward and tried to discredit them, it'd be kinda similar.

If that were the case we'd quite understandably investigate FIFA officials for acting like a pedophile ring.

Wasn't yer man that was arrested today in England moved round a few parishes clubs too though when people knew what was going on? Or so the various news programmes suggest
Who knows what's going to come out

And then there's jimmy savilles ring, them blasted kids tv presenters,we should close down children's tv altogether and cancel the late late toy show before it's too late

Point-there are evil people but tar brushing everybody related doesn't help

Dyr

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Er, I would -suspect- s/he's referring to the power that the Roman Catholic Church still holds in Irish society and decision making rather than mass murder. I dunno, it's AH. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on not advocating religious genocide!

Yeah mass murder is deffo wrong.

Although, there would be a certain irony in wiping out the religious orders, dumping their corpses in a septic tank and then shrugging and going "shurlookit, mistakes were made"

Simi

ArKl0w wrote: »

Point-there are evil people but tar brushing everybody related doesn't help

That's not what I'm doing though? I'm not having a go at all Catholics. I'm pointing out that those who aided and abetted in these horrific crimes have never faced punishment and they never will.

54and56

ArKl0w wrote: »

Wasn't yer man that was arrested today in England moved round a few parishes clubs too though when people knew what was going on? Or so the various news programmes suggest
Who knows what's going to come out

Complete apples and oranges and to equate the systemic abuse and denial perpetrated on an international scale by the Catholic Church with individual paedophiles who may have moved jobs but not with the assistance of the governing body to facilitate cover up is IMO an attempt to deny the horrific scale of what the Catholic Church did and continues to do.

ArKl0w wrote: »

And then there's jimmy savilles ring, them blasted kids tv presenters,we should close down children's tv altogether and cancel the late late toy show before it's too late

Your sick humour at the expense of abuse victims and denial of the unique level of depravity inflicted on society by the Catholic Church is a reflection of who you really are and shows how far we as a society still have to go to prorect ourselves from abusers and their apologists.

Shame on you.

ArKl0w

Simi wrote: »

That's not what I'm doing though? I'm not having a go at all Catholics. I'm pointing out that those who aided and abetted in these horrific crimes have never faced punishment and they never will.

Yeah but I don't think all the people who knew about Savilles carry on and said nothing or quietly facilitated it by default will be charged with anything either and ditto with this soccer thing

The actual perpetrators do get justice served when caught

Thankfully there's been an albeit way too slow evolution in thinking on how these crimes are dealt with and reported today versus decades ago

RobertKK

Simi wrote: »

It's not the same though. If the abuse had been covered up by FIFA, and they'd protected and moved around the soccer coaches allowing them to continue abusing kids, and then intimidated the victims who came forward and tried to discredit them, it'd be kinda similar.

If that were the case we'd quite understandably investigate FIFA officials for acting like a pedophile ring.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/25/football-sex-abuse-scandal-top-clubs-made-secret-payments-keep/

Top football clubs made secret payments to buy the silence of young players sexually abused by coaches, The Telegraph can disclose, as the growing scandal threatened to engulf the sport. A well-placed source said a number of clubs, including at least one Premier League team, had paid compensation to footballers but only after victims had signed confidentiality agreements so strict that along with their families and lawyers they are banned from saying publicly if the cases even existed.
The revelation will fuel concern that the national game has covered up historic sexual abuse for years.

The problem of sexual abuse has existed and does exist in every area of society.
The Catholic church as a moral authority made the church's own scandal worse, yet for a victim of sexual abuse, simply being abused is bigger than who or what organisation is associated with the abuse.

In soccer, sexual abuse victims were being bought off and it was happening on a much bigger scale than just one club.

For the victim, it is the same. Time and time again when you look at cases outside of the Catholic church, there has been cover up.
To try and avoid embarrassment, sexual abuse has been covered up by many organisations and no doubt many we don't know about, because it seems all try and cover it up for reputation sake rather than doing the right thing.
People who only think the church covered up sexual abuse, are being blind, there is a pattern of cover up in society.
So there is no difference, so many have chosen to deal with sexual abuse completely inappropriately.

RobertKK

ArKl0w wrote: »

Yeah but I don't think all the people who knew about Savilles carry on and said nothing or quietly facilitated it by default will be changed with anything either and ditto with this soccer thing

The actual perpetrators do get justice served when caught

Thankfully there's been an albeit way too slow evolution in thinking on how these crimes are dealt with and reported today versus decades ago

I hear people on the radio, usually DJs who praise John Peel despite him being involved in sexual abuse of underage girls.

Then the BBC go and erect a plaque to honour him.
John Peel said of the underage girls he sexually abused:
‘Well, of course, I didn’t ask for ID,’ he said.‘All they wanted me to do was to abuse them sexually which, of course I was only too happy to do.
‘It was the glamour of the job . . . but frustratingly, American girls of that period — as they do now, actually — had this strange notion of virginity as a tangible thing which you surrendered to your husband on your wedding night.
‘So they would do anything but s*** you. They’d give you a b*** *** before they’d s*** you.’

54and56

RobertKK wrote: »

People who only think the church covered up sexual abuse, are being blind, there is a pattern of cover up in society.
So there is no difference, so many have chosen to deal with sexual abuse completely inappropriately.

No one thinks abuse only happened in the Catholic Church or that the Catholic Church is the only organisation to conver it up but there are some major differences between what the Catholic Church did /does and other organisations such as football clubs such as:-

1. The prevalence of abusers amongst its staff.

2. The long term international systemic facilitation of abuse by the leaders of the organisation at the very top levels.

3. The long term coverup and subsequent attacking of victims.

4. Uniquely the Catholic Church holds itself out as the authority on morals and social behaviour but instead of adhering to its own standards it totally subverts them in favour of self preservation.

A football club or business might well mistakenly try to cover up abuse by an employee in order to protect its reputation and there is no excuse for that but such behavior is nowhere near as serious from a societal (not individual victim) perspective as the scale of what the Catholic Church did/does and we certainly wouldn't be welcoming someone who was a senior manager of such a football club during the peak period of abuse who has now climed the ladder to top spot!!

RobertKK

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

No one thinks abuse only happened in the Catholic Church or that the Catholic Church is the only organisation to conver it up but there are some major differences between what the Catholic Church did /does and other organisations such as football clubs such as:-

1. The prevalence of abusers amongst its staff.

2. The long term international systemic facilitation of abuse by the leaders of the organisation at the very top levels.

3. The long term coverup and subsequent attacking of victims.

4. Uniquely the Catholic Church holds itself out as the authority on morals and social behaviour but instead of adhering to its own standards it totally subverts them in favour of self preservation.

A football club or business might well mistakenly try to cover up abuse by an employee in order to protect its reputation and there is no excuse for that but such behavior is nowhere near as serious from a societal (not individual victim) perspective as the scale of what the Catholic Church did/does and we certainly wouldn't be welcoming someone who was a senior manager of such a football club during the peak period of abuse who has now climed the ladder to top spot!!

The sexual abuse scandal in soccer is just starting, it started off with one club, now many more clubs are implicated.

Do you trust FIFA after all the scandal they had over the past number of years?

The Telegraph said there are historical cases of abuse. So it has been long term cover up.

The cover up in soccer was no mistake, abuse victims and their families paid off under strict legal agreements with lawyers involved.
Yes, the abuse scandals were worse for the church given it is a moral authority.
One can argue being sexually abused by person A is worse than being sexually abused exactly the same way by person B, but it is all the same.
It doesn't matter what organisation is associated with abuse, for the victims it makes no difference who abused them, one can't say it would be better to be sexually abused in soccer, by a DJ, by a swimming coach than by a priest.
It is all equally as bad. One of the abuse cases in the BBC, a 15 year old girl killed herself with an overdose, so we can't say being abused by one is worse than being abused by some other.

foggy_lad

Glenster wrote: »

Nah mate not really, Look in a church next sunday.

Old people.

The parents with kids aren't even there anymore.

The old are there watching! Thankfully people are more educated now and don't have such large families so are not as reliant on the church to take their children and put them through school hell.

The Draugan wrote: »

I think its fair to say the catholic church along with most other religions are experiencing a decline in the west , it unsurprising given how out of touch they are with modern life. This didn't actually start with the current generation , it started with their parents and was accelerated in the RCC's case by the abuse scandals , Magdalene laundries , industrial schools etc...

They never moved with the times because they can't! Their game plan was always to take advantage of the poor, ignorant and illiterate people who they themselves created with their rules on family and contraception and how a woman was committing crimes against God by not letting her husband fcuk her or even rape her till she had a baby every ten months!

The catholic church here was worse than Nicolae Ceaușescu in Romania!

Once people got education and travelled to see the world they knew they didn't have to accept the rule of the church.

A Little Pony wrote: »

How can you get rid of the Catholic Church? You have them all over the Island. I can literally walk a mile to one near my home.

Tax them and all other religious groups out of existence!
Pass a law that any property owned by these groups is forfeited to the state!

JupiterKid

The church also bitterly opposed the change in the law in the 1990s that made marital rape a criminal offence. Utterly vile. They have no moral right to preach to people. The objective of the church was to treat women as baby making third class citizens who had no voice. Keep people poor and ignorant by having far too large families that they couldn't afford.

Reprehensible really...

HellSquirrel

RobertKK wrote: »

Well there are cases of non religious committing genocide against religious.
No one can be too careful these days...

When it doubt in an internet debate with moderately reasonable people, it's usually best to assume that they're -not- advocating religious genocide. I mean, it's a pretty low bar to set, but it's a start...

Dyr

HellSquirrel wrote: »

When it doubt in an internet debate with moderately reasonable people, it's usually best to assume that they're -not- advocating religious genocide. I mean, it's a pretty low bar to set, but it's a start...

When you have a guy who compares John peel to Brendan Smyth you can safely assume that moderately reasonable assumptions will not be their forte

RobertKK

Bambi wrote: »

When you have a guy who compares John peel to Brendan Smyth you can safely assume that moderately reasonable assumptions will not be their forte

So it is ok for John Peel to say he did not ask for ID and that the underage girls wanted him to abuse them sexually, and that it was the glamour of the job...
I never even mentioned Brendan Smyth. One is not alright and the other wrong, both are wrong, and making excuses doesn't change it.
I was simply saying sexual abuse is sexual abuse and some here are downplaying sexual abuse based on who or what organisation is connected to it.

54and56

RobertKK wrote: »

So it is ok for John Peel to say he did not ask for ID and that the underage girls wanted him to abuse them sexually, and that it was the glamour of the job...
I never even mentioned Brendan Smyth. One is not alright and the other wrong, both are wrong, and making excuses doesn't change it.
I was simply saying sexual abuse is sexual abuse and some here are downplaying sexual abuse based on who or what organisation is connected to it.

A big issue here is scale and systematic protection of the abusers by their governing organisation. From a victims perspective its a depraved nightmare regardless of whether the perpetrator was a priest, a DJ or a football coach but from a societal perspective there is no comparison to the role the Catholic Church played on a global basis in facilitating and covering up systematic abuse by thousands of priests over decades and the negligence or poorly advised response of the BBC or a football club when they discover an employee is an abuser and your attempts to equate the two situations are nothing short of outrageous. Your language is that of an apologist for the behaviour of the Catholic Church and you should be ashamed of yourself.

RobertKK

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

A big issue here is scale and systematic protection of the abusers by their governing organisation. From a victims perspective its a depraved nightmare regardless of whether the perpetrator was a priest, a DJ or a football coach but from a societal perspective there is no comparison to the role the Catholic Church played on a global basis in facilitating and covering up systematic abuse by thousands of priests over decades and the negligence or poorly advised response of the BBC or a football club when they discover an employee is an abuser and your attempts to equate the two situations are nothing short of outrageous. Your language is that of an apologist for the behaviour of the Catholic Church and you should be ashamed of yourself.

People don't know the scale of the abuse in soccer, anyone who thinks it is isolated to England are sticking their heads in the sand.
It more than just 'a football club', it appears to be more widespread than simply a problem at Crewe Alexandra FC, even Chelsea are implicated in it and of clubs buying the silence of victims and their families.
Do people trust the governing bodies in soccer/football who were eyeball deep in other scandals which they tried to keep quiet?

We can all be really stupid and believe the BBC didn't know Jimmy Savile was sexually abusing girls and women since 1959.

I heard the head of the FA in England saying how sexual abuse was not taken seriously in the past in most organisations.
As one can see John Peel even backed up this saying he didn't look for ID from girls who looked underage and he went onto say they wanted to be sexually abused.
So the BBC has the Jimmy Savile scandal and others then were discovered...the BBC after all of this puts up a plague on their new BBC building to honour a sexual abuser...

The problem will persist when people choose to categorise a sexual abuser as to whom is worse.
All these organisations tried to cover up sexual abuse, but the church...doesn't make it better or worse.
They all committed the same crimes.

WinnyThePoo

The catholic church is a sick organisation.

Any organisation that promotes discrimination and inequality can rightly go f*ck itself.

Bubbaclaus

RobertKK wrote: »

People don't know the scale of the abuse in soccer, anyone who thinks it is isolated to England are sticking their heads in the sand.
It more than just 'a football club', it appears to be more widespread than simply a problem at Crewe Alexandra FC, even Chelsea are implicated in it and of clubs buying the silence of victims and their families.
Do people trust the governing bodies in soccer/football who were eyeball deep in other scandals which they tried to keep quiet?

We can all be really stupid and believe the BBC didn't know Jimmy Savile was sexually abusing girls and women since 1959.

I heard the head of the FA in England saying how sexual abuse was not taken seriously in the past in most organisations.
As one can see John Peel even backed up this saying he didn't look for ID from girls who looked underage and he went onto say they wanted to be sexually abused.
So the BBC has the Jimmy Savile scandal and others then were discovered...the BBC after all of this puts up a plague on their new BBC building to honour a sexual abuser...

The problem will persist when people choose to categorise a sexual abuser as to whom is worse.
All these organisations tried to cover up sexual abuse, but the church...doesn't make it better or worse.
They all committed the same crimes.

I don't ever recall FIFA ruling Ireland with an iron fist or running our schools/sticking their noses in our healthcare and laws.

Your whataboutery is tiresome and as a previous poster has alluded to you should be ashamed of yourself.

RobertKK

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I don't ever recall FIFA ruling Ireland with an iron fist or running our schools/sticking their noses in our healthcare and laws.

Your whataboutery is tiresome and as a previous poster has alluded to you should be ashamed of yourself.

The running of schools...ever wonder why the church runs so many schools? They did before the state existed.
It is quite sad that some complain about schols the church set up to educate the people of Ireland which helped to lift living standards of all people in this country.
It is terrible the church provided healthcare when it was not available, shame on them shame.

I have nothing to be ashamed of. This is about the Pope visiting, not me. If you want to make it personal, argue with yourself.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

God almighty.

WinnyThePoo

Don't think i've seen someone dig so deep before.

RobertKK

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Don't think i've seen someone dig so deep before.

Some have dug in so deep they are in the dark and can see no good.

Bubbaclaus

RobertKK wrote: »

Some have dug in so deep they are in the dark and can see no good.

Winny is referring to you.

WinnyThePoo

RobertKK wrote: »

Some have dug in so deep they are in the dark and can see no good.

Yep especially when they dig up mass graves.

RobertKK

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Yep especially when they dig up mass graves.

Are 'they' digging up mass graves?

RobertKK

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Winny is referring to you.

You may not have noticed I did know that and turned it around.
But a lot of things go unnoticed...both good and bad.

54and56

RobertKK wrote: »

People don't know the scale of the abuse in soccer, anyone who thinks it is isolated to England are sticking their heads in the sand.
It more than just 'a football club', it appears to be more widespread than simply a problem at Crewe Alexandra FC, even Chelsea are implicated in it and of clubs buying the silence of victims and their families.
Do people trust the governing bodies in soccer/football who were eyeball deep in other scandals which they tried to keep quiet?

We can all be really stupid and believe the BBC didn't know Jimmy Savile was sexually abusing girls and women since 1959.

I heard the head of the FA in England saying how sexual abuse was not taken seriously in the past in most organisations.
As one can see John Peel even backed up this saying he didn't look for ID from girls who looked underage and he went onto say they wanted to be sexually abused.
So the BBC has the Jimmy Savile scandal and others then were discovered...the BBC after all of this puts up a plague on their new BBC building to honour a sexual abuser...

The problem will persist when people choose to categorise a sexual abuser as to whom is worse.
All these organisations tried to cover up sexual abuse, but the church...doesn't make it better or worse.
They all committed the same crimes.

You are hypothesising about soccer having a systemic multi decade sexual abuse problem and the BBC has a small number of staff members who were abusers, probably in line with the percentage of deviants in society as a whole. Their handing of it was clearly inappropriate but AFAIK they have now put policies and procedures in place to ensure future cases of abuse are dealt with correctly.

The Catholic Church on the other hand have been sexually, physically and psychologicaly abusing children and vulnerable adults on a global scale which is exponentially more prevalent than any other organisation on the planet and they promote themselves as doing Gods work!!!

A half a dozen paedophiles in the BBC and a similar number in football clubs over the past three or four decades is in no way comparable to the 100+ paedophile priests IN ONE SINGLE DIOCESE in Ireland over the same period. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/101-priests-in-single-diocese-accused-of-abuse-in-40-years-268345.html

You are doing your best to somehow "normalise" the systematic depravity practiced by the Catbolic Church by equating it to some well publiscised cases in other organisations but they are absolutely not comparable and as long as apologists like you refuse to acknowledge the difference we all have to be on guard.

Welcoming the Head of the world's greatest ever paedophile ring is not something I think we should be doing.

RobertKK

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

You are hypothesising about soccer having a systemic multi decade sexual abuse problem and the BBC has a small number of staff members who were abusers, probably in line with the percentage of deviants in society as a whole. Their handing of it was clearly inappropriate but AFAIK they have now put policies and procedures in place to ensure future cases of abuse are dealt with correctly.

The Catholic Church on the other hand have been sexually, physically and psychologicaly abusing children and vulnerable adults on a global scale which is exponentially more prevalent than any other organisation on the planet and they promote themselves as doing Gods work!!!

A half a dozen paedophiles in the BBC and a similar number in football clubs over the past three or four decades is in no way comparable to the 100+ paedophile priests IN ONE SINGLE DIOCESE in Ireland over the same period. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/101-priests-in-single-diocese-accused-of-abuse-in-40-years-268345.html

You are doing your best to somehow "normalise" the systematic depravity practiced by the Catbolic Church by equating it to some well publiscised cases in other organisations but they are absolutely not comparable and as long as apologists like you refuse to acknowledge the difference we all have to be on guard.

Welcoming the Head of the world's greatest ever paedophile ring is not something I think we should be doing.

This thread is about the Pope coming to Ireland, and all some want to talk about is sexual abuse, dismiss any good the church has done and some even made out it;s purpose is to sexually abuse.
If people want to be irrational, that is their thing, but the fact is churches are open, churches are operating and churches have priests because it was a small percentage of priests who did the abuse, but some generalise and tar and feather all with their comments.

There has been justified criticism and irrational hatred of the church in this thread.
Paedophiles joined the church as it had too much respect, too much reverence, and too much power, if anyone thinks they cared about the church they are deluded.
The cover up is where the real damage was done.
The measures taken by the church to protect children shows the church has taken the abuse scandals seriously.
But for some nothing at all has changed, and anyone who thinks that is quite frankly irrational, because I am sure they haven't been to church to see child protection policies in action.

Bubbaclaus

Speaking of irrational...will the Pope be bringing his imaginary friend with him to Ireland?

54and56

RobertKK wrote: »

This thread is about the Pope coming to Ireland, and all some want to talk about is sexual abuse, dismiss any good the church has done and some even made out it;s purpose is to sexually abuse.
If people want to be irrational, that is their thing, but the fact is churches are open, churches are operating and churches have priests because it was a small percentage of priests who did the abuse, but some generalise and tar and feather all with their comments.

A small percentage? Relative to 100% of priests, yes, relative to the percentage of paedophiles in general society? No!!

RobertKK wrote: »

There has been justified criticism and irrational hatred of the church in this thread.
Paedophiles joined the church as it had too much respect, too much reverence, and too much power, if anyone thinks they cared about the church they are deluded.
The cover up is where the real damage was done.
The measures taken by the church to protect children shows the church has taken the abuse scandals seriously.
But for some nothing at all has changed, and anyone who thinks that is quite frankly irrational, because I am sure they haven't been to church to see child protection policies in action.

If the church was truly transparent it would release all victims from the confidentiality agreements they made them sign, report all internal information they have relating to abuse which has not yet been made public or included in any prosecutions and if they were truly repentant they wouldn't continue to attack abuse victims like they did to Michael O'Brien in the video previously posted above and they would set aside the sweetheart deal they did with fellow Catholic ministers from Fianna Fail and pay the compensation due to all of their victims.

Their words are not backed up by their actions and until that happens they have to be viewed as a dangerous organisation who are paying lip service to sexual abuse due to the public pressure they are under but ultimately they are not changing one bit. The sooner they fade away the better and a few more decades of record low ordination numbers should hopefully see that happen in my lifetime.