Dairy chit chat II

Buford T. Justice XIX

kowtow wrote: »

Stupid question I am sure, but when we refer to additional profit per cow as a result of a reduced calving interval, where - exactly - is that profit coming from? Are assumptions being made about drying off dates and lost milk as if a herd was already in a tight spring calving pattern, or is it about matching future calving dates to peak grass production? ... I think what I am trying to say is would the additional profit or loss from fertility be the same if a herd was already a deliberately all year round calving herd?

It's the extra profit from cows at grass, longer lactations and better calf sales.

A cow calving 1st Feb will be in milk longer than the exact same cow calving 3 weeks or 6 weeks later, she will have 3 months to sort out her uterus to go back in calf rather than 2 months or 1 month. Her calf will be bigger and easier to manage in a group rather than being one of the tail enders having to get preferential treatment. She will have a much better chance of going in calf again and again having a longer lactation and likewise any heifer calves she will have.

And the majority of her lactation will be at grass which is the cheapest feed we have.

kowtow

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It's the extra profit from cows at grass, longer lactations and better calf sales.

A cow calving 1st Feb will be in milk longer than the exact same cow calving 3 weeks or 6 weeks later, she will have 3 months to sort out her uterus to go back in calf rather than 2 months or 1 month. Her calf will be bigger and easier to manage in a group rather than being one of the tail enders having to get preferential treatment. She will have a much better chance of going in calf again and again having a longer lactation and likewise any heifer calves she will have.

And the majority of her lactation will be at grass which is the cheapest feed we have.

All agreed, but most of it only applies in a Spring calving system? i.e. the lost milk is based on you drying her off with the rest of the herd, the time to repair on you wanting to bring her back calving earlier next year, etc. etc. ??

blackdog1

kowtow wrote:

All agreed, but most of it only applies in a Spring calving system? i.e. the lost milk is based on you drying her off with the rest of the herd, the time to repair on you wanting to bring her back calving earlier next year, etc. etc. ??

Yea all teagasc care about is spring and it's based in a 5500 litre cow and 300kg of meal. If a 9000 (305 day )litre cow calves every 360 days it's unreal but if she takes 60 days longer to calve she's still a good cow. Problem is if you dry her off in December she might only milk for 7 months so it reduces her profibility from milk. If your in a all year round system she'll still be a very profitable cow.

Buford T. Justice XIX

kowtow wrote: »

All agreed, but most of it only applies in a Spring calving system? i.e. the lost milk is based on you drying her off with the rest of the herd, the time to repair on you wanting to bring her back calving earlier next year, etc. etc. ??

Dont the same principles apply in Autumn calving? Compact calving the minimum numbers in a short period to supply the bonused milk? While milking on will supply cash flow, does it supply enough profit relative to feed and labour costs to justify not focusing on compact calving for both periods? Especially in low milk price years which now appear to be two out of every three years?

yewtree

blackdog1 wrote: »

Yea all teagasc care about is spring and it's based in a 5500 litre cow and 300kg of meal. If a 9000 (305 day )litre cow calves every 360 days it's unreal but if she takes 60 days longer to calve she's still a good cow. Problem is if you dry her off in December she might only milk for 7 months so it reduces her profibility from milk. If your in a all year round system she'll still be a very profitable cow.

Will that not in time just lead to calving cows all year round, fertility would seem to me to be just as important in winter milk

blackdog1

yewtree wrote:

Will that not in time just lead to calving cows all year round, fertility would seem to me to be just as important in winter milk

If o have a cow doing 7500 and calving 365 days that's what I'm aiming for. If it calves later say 400 days and does 9000 and 700kg of milk solids I'm not going to complain. I'm milking everyday anyway. If it's a bull calf I'll get 120-150 at 2 -3 weeks and when she's culled I'll get 700-900 out of parlour . Both cows will make me money. I generally find is the bigger milkers that I have trouble getting back in calf...they're body condition score needs to be managed better. But that's down to my management skills not the cows genetics (maybe 10% genetics)

Mooooo

Sent 11 cows to factory, should have cheque fri but 10 averaged 980 and 1 with bad legs 500, 6 straight from parlour but were rolled over calved last year

whelan2

Mooooo wrote: »

Sent 11 cows to factory, should have cheque fri but 10 averaged 980 and 1 with bad legs 500, 6 straight from parlour but were rolled over calved last year

Party on at your house the weekend so

yosemitesam1

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

While milking on will supply cash flow, does it supply enough profit relative to feed and labour costs to justify not focusing on compact calving for both periods? Especially in low milk price years which now appear to be two out of every three years?

That surely comes back to how efficient you can utilise feed, labour etc. If you can be at the top of yor game what makes sense won't always be in line with teagasc because the majority of their advice is aimed toward people who are below/around average

Mooooo

whelan2 wrote: »

Party on at your house the weekend so

Main entertainment being stone picking! All welcome!

kowtow

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Dont the same principles apply in Autumn calving? Compact calving the minimum numbers in a short period to supply the bonus-ed milk? While milking on will supply cash flow, does it supply enough profit relative to feed and labour costs to justify not focusing on compact calving for both periods? Especially in low milk price years which now appear to be two out of every three years?

I'm sure they do, it must be better to have a cow that goes in calf well and freshens more or less when you want her to whatever time of year - it was really the basis for the profit figure which had me stumped - clearly all the metrics work against the baseline of the ideal Spring Calving herd, which is just fine so far as it goes. And becoming an "accidental winter milker" probably isn't desirable or profitable if you aren't set up for it.

The more I think about the detail of the research and the boards I saw yesterday the more I am persuaded that Teagasc have in mind a Spring Calving herd, grass fed, of 100+ cows - which Gerry Boyle apparently thinks is half the herds in the country (although that was corrected on Twitter yesterday). If you take that in conjunction with the recent farm competitiveness report where an "optimal" 110 cow Irish herd is used as an example - labour costs included - I think it is fair to say you can see where they are going with this. And no harm in that, it may well be the direction which most suits most of the herds.

But I wonder whether they should try, as the years go by, to make it clearer that they see that as the basis of their mandate and that other systems and herd sizes are essentially "alternative". In a sense that would make things easier for everybody, although I can see that they may struggle to fund research into the alternative systems with budgets tight everywhere.

It's very difficult to be all things to all men without being accused of "one size fits all"!

Mooooo

kowtow wrote: »

I'm sure they do, it must be better to have a cow that goes in calf well and freshens more or less when you want her to whatever time of year - it was really the basis for the profit figure which had me stumped - clearly all the metrics work against the baseline of the ideal Spring Calving herd, which is just fine so far as it goes. And becoming an "accidental winter milker" probably isn't desirable or profitable if you aren't set up for it.

The more I think about the detail of the research and the boards I saw yesterday the more I am persuaded that Teagasc have in mind a Spring Calving herd, grass fed, of 100+ cows - which Gerry Boyle apparently thinks is half the herds in the country (although that was corrected on Twitter yesterday). If you take that in conjunction with the recent farm competitiveness report where an "optimal" 110 cow Irish herd is used as an example - labour costs included - I think it is fair to say you can see where they are going with this. And no harm in that, it may well be the direction which most suits most of the herds.

But I wonder whether they should try, as the years go by, to make it clearer that they see that as the basis of their mandate and that other systems and herd sizes are essentially "alternative". In a sense that would make things easier for everybody, although I can see that they may struggle to fund research into the alternative systems with budgets tight everywhere.

It's very difficult to be all things to all men without being accused of "one size fits all"!

Many have no problem producing by fresh milk in winter it's what you get paid for it is the issue

Water John

Teagasc are largely working with the KISS formula. This reaches the majority of their clients with the one message. One that is also, easily imparted by their own staff.
That's fine, but anyone operating outside of that, may be operating an equally valid system.

stanflt

Can't understand how lads don't believe in ebi Teagasc and Fertilty

It doesn't matter what system or cow type you have but if you follow the basics as on display in moorepark you will be much better off financially

stanflt

stanflt wrote: »

Can't understand how lads don't believe in ebi Teagasc and Fertilty

It doesn't matter what system or cow type you have but if you follow the basics as on display in moorepark you will be much better off financially

Milk sold

charolais0153

Is abergain ,aberchoice ,tryrella/drumbo the best mix still for grazing

visatorro

stanflt wrote: »

Milk sold

Where are you losing the cent per litre compared to top 10% of glanbia? Don't take question the wrong way just curious because there should be nothing wrong with your figures.

kowtow

stanflt wrote:

Can't understand how lads don't believe in ebi Teagasc and Fertilty

stanflt wrote:

It doesn't matter what system or cow type you have but if you follow the basics as on display in moorepark you will be much better off financially

I totally believe in them, each of the fundamental points being so well researched and well put across that as others have said there are plenty of actionable items which will increase any farms profitability.

If the conversation and debate here and on Twitter is anything to go by people are chewing over everything they saw yesterday and that alone should give Teagasc huge cause for satisfaction. By any standards they over-delivered and for a quasi govt. Organisation that is a rare thing indeed.

pedigree 6

charolais0153 wrote: »

Is abergain ,aberchoice ,tryrella/drumbo the best mix still for grazing

Drop the tyrella anyway.
Palatability lets it down.

Maybe go with just aberchoice (D) and abergain (T)

Maybe go with aberwolf if wanting a third grass and a diploid. The only drawback if it is a drawback is it's heading out date is the 31st may as opposed to aberchoice 9th june and abergain 5th june.
They say you should have the grasses heading out date fairly close but aberwolfs ground cover is top of the list at 7 and should compliment choice and gain and it has that spring growth of 58.
It is a little bit lower on palatability than choice and gain but not as bad as tyrella.

Edit: drumbo is better on palatability than wolf but wolf trumps it on yield and ground cover.

stanflt

visatorro wrote: »

Where are you losing the cent per litre compared to top 10% of glanbia? Don't take question the wrong way just curious because there should be nothing wrong with your figures.

Not enough liquid contract to meet the production of the spring calving cows in late lactation

Keepgrowing

charolais0153 wrote: »

Is abergain ,aberchoice ,tryrella/drumbo the best mix still for grazing

Drop Tyrella, doesn't impress me. I'd go with the two Abers and Drumbo heading date shod run into first week of June.

It better be right as we've a load of it just ready to graze.

Keepgrowing

Ayr calving being seen as acceptable despite the fact that our whole industry is set up for spring calving milk.

So some feel it's ok to calve cows any time and milk through the winter without any bonus/contract.

In my honest opinion that's winter milk for slow learners. The market and uses for winter milk are limited here. We have Baileys and a few other small outlets. Our population is too small to support any decent volume of liquid milk production.

I know the argument is that our coops should have an outlet but the reality is that as of now that don't. Teagasc rightly promoted a compact spring based calving to grass system. There should be no other system even considered till there's a better alternative.

By supplying un contracted milk your allowing the processor cheap milk so should really disqualify one from complaining about price.

jaymla627

stanflt wrote: »

Can't understand how lads don't believe in ebi Teagasc and Fertilty

It doesn't matter what system or cow type you have but if you follow the basics as on display in moorepark you will be much better off financially

The crux of your above slides doesn't paint a full picture though would love to see another proper analysis done and used as a kpi regarding longevity of cows in a herd, its all well and good having a 365 calving interval and 90% 8 week calving rate but if your culling/selling in milk 25-30% of your herd every year to inflate the above figures your basically a hot house herd in America terminology...

stanflt

jaymla627 wrote: »

The crux of your above slides doesn't paint a full picture though would love to see another proper analysis done and used as a kpi regarding longevity of cows in a herd, its all well and good having a 365 calving interval and 90% 8 week calving rate but if your culling/selling in milk 25-30% of your herd every year to inflate the above figures your basically a hot house herd in America terminology...

Cows that are being sold are fresh calved heifers that are surplus to requirements- not late calving mature cows- cow numbers rising so more heifers entering every yr which keeps overall age of cows well down

I reckon the nature replacement rate is around 12-15 % but we do cull hard on type and solids tbh

blackdog1

stanflt wrote:

Can't understand how lads don't believe in ebi Teagasc and Fertilty

Your not exactly farming the teagasc way Stan. Your feeding way too much and have no cross breeds. Your more of an ebi purist which is fine. I don't believe in Teagasc research on cow type or breed. They have very good grass research and I think Riona Sears on disease is exellent.

blackdog1

jaymla627 wrote:

The crux of your above slides doesn't paint a full picture though would love to see another proper analysis done and used as a kpi regarding longevity of cows in a herd, its all well and good having a 365 calving interval and 90% 8 week calving rate but if your culling/selling in milk 25-30% of your herd every year to inflate the above figures your basically a hot house herd in America terminology...

Don't think he's inflating the figures much if anything myself. He probably has a feed to yield system and feeds his cows extremely well and keeps them in good order. Problem is if you put stans cows into a grass based farm feeding only 300kg of feed they would melt and his calving interval would go way up and milk production down. I think him and his brother are good managers and feed they're cows well and he's getting the results. Problem is Stan takes no credit he gives it all to Ebi.

stanflt

blackdog1 wrote: »

Your not exactly farming the teagasc way Stan. Your feeding way too much and have no cross breeds. Your more of an ebi purist which is fine. I don't believe in Teagasc research on cow type or breed. They have very good grass research and I think Riona Sears on disease is exellent.

Same basic principles- grass and fertility

mahoney_j

blackdog1 wrote: »

Don't think he's inflating the figures much if anything myself. He probably has a feed to yield system and feeds his cows extremely well and keeps them in good order. Problem is if you put stans cows into a grass based farm feeding only 300kg of feed they would melt and his calving interval would go way up and milk production down. I think him and his brother are good managers and feed they're cows well and he's getting the results. Problem is Stan takes no credit he gives it all to Ebi.

You forget to mention the boss man. His dad .noe there is a cow man open mind and progressed with stans ideas .was up last year and chatting to him on way back from cows ,a mountain of knowledge

GrasstoMilk

How's breeding going for everyone?
Week 10 finished here tomorrow and getting 4/5 a week returning. Haven't got as good s conception rate to first serve this year as last year but they look to have settled down in the last 3 weeks.
2 more weeks of breeding and that's us finished.

mahoney_j

blackdog1 wrote: »

Your not exactly farming the teagasc way Stan. Your feeding way too much and have no cross breeds. Your more of an ebi purist which is fine. I don't believe in Teagasc research on cow type or breed. They have very good grass research and I think Riona Sears on disease is exellent.

He sort of his he is embracing the core principles the big one been grassland management and getting as much grass into cows as possible ,not afraid to push. Boundaries getting cows out in spring /autumn but crucially knows when and how to supplement efficiently .id have my views and faults with tegasc butvwould in no way dismiss them,great work and info constantly been given back,were lucky to have them