Night hunting & Safety courses.

Cass

This thread got me thinking. There are two issues under review that might give cause for concern.

One is shooting at night. The NPWS and other bodies have raised concerns about people shooting at night and the implied safety concerns. A review is under way and a report expected. So we could see guidelines (which we all know are treated as laws) regarding when we can shoot (night, etc) and perhaps even restrictions on night shooting during some seasons (deer, etc).

The second one is the issue of competence. I'm a fairly outspoken critic of the current way competence is proven. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can give a course and it's accepted. No regulation on the courses, and no recognition of any course.

While An Garda Síochána will not endorse any specific training course, it will consider amending the Commissioners’ guidelines to place a greater emphasis on this area in particular for first time firearms certificate applicants.

The Department of Justice is drafting a best practice document for firearms dealers which will also provide guidance in this area.

So they still will not recognise or approve any course yet say the onus is once again on ourselves to regulate and train ourselves to a level they deem necessary.

Now i'm all for safety and training, but not when it's a mockery as these courses can be. In the quote above about notifying Firearms Dealers. Why? Are they putting the onus on RFD to make sure people are trained before they can buy a firearm, or are they saying that RFDs should run these courses? Not picking on RFDs here, it's everyone. Like the lad down the road that will print of a spreadsheet from his home computer and charge you €30, €40, €50, etc for 30 minutes of his time then call you competent.

However, and i really want to stress this, this does not mean i am for this poxy idea of a graduated licensing system. I am all for continued safety training and most definitely for a qualified and regulated training course where the instructor has done a few courses themselves, all done in a safe and controlled environment.

Plus it should include all the types of firearms. What good is looking at, and if you're lucky getting to hold, a shotgun if you are going for a rifle?

The pigeon man

Shooting at night requires great care and knowledge of the land. The problem is if you're using a centrefire rifle the bullet will usually travel further than the beam of the torch. Therefore one has to be very careful to use a suitable backstop. I suppose some people may have concerns, of individuals using 'silenced' rifles with nightvision and going around the countryside under the cover of darkness without the knowledge of anyone else in the vicinity.

On the matter of competency certs there is a problem with the system as you have stated above. That siad I wouldn't like to see it turn into something like the driving theory test where you have to pay a fee and sit an exam. This would make it even more difficult for first time applicants to attain a firearm.

Vegeta

The pigeon man wrote: »

Shooting at night requires great care and knowledge of the land. The problem is if you're using a centrefire rifle the bullet will usually travel further than the beam of the torch. Therefore one has to be very careful to use a suitable backstop. I suppose some people may have concerns, of individuals using 'silenced' rifles with nightvision and going around the countryside under the cover of darkness without the knowledge of anyone else in the vicinity.

I agree that all shooting requires care and knowledge but the rules are the same night or day. Do not fire if the shot is not safe and you are not 100% of your backstop.

Cass do you have more info on this, are submissions being made through the FCP?

Rimfire Shooter

Vegeta wrote: »

................ are submissions being made through the FCP?

Yes for training. By one of the shooting reps with a vested interest, apparently. Most if not all the shooting reps on this FCP are commercial entities.

Cass

The pigeon man wrote: »

Shooting at night requires great care and knowledge of the land. The problem is if you're using a centrefire rifle the bullet will usually travel further than the beam of the torch. Therefore one has to be very careful to use a suitable backstop. I suppose some people may have concerns, of individuals using 'silenced' rifles with nightvision and going around the countryside under the cover of darkness without the knowledge of anyone else in the vicinity.

Vgeta has it exactly right.

night shooting is essentially the same as day shooting. Know your ability, distance ot target, safe backstop, and always practice sensible safe shooting. The fact this is done under a lamp changes nothing.

The wanted changes revolve around eliminating any excuses people may give for being out at night with a rifle. IOW possibly an attempt to curb poaching. now i'm all for anything we can do to wipe out the scum that are poachers, but much like the EU gun ban, and previous knee jerk legislation (handgun ban of 2008) stopping all legitimate shooting to prevent a few pieces of sh*t is lazy and will not stop the actual problem.

If they want to combat poaching, and i really don't want to turn this thread into another ranting on poachers, then throw some money into the NPWS. they are seriously short on rangers, resources and support (in the courts).

On the matter of competency certs there is a problem with the system as you have stated above. That siad I wouldn't like to see it turn into something like the driving theory test where you have to pay a fee and sit an exam. This would make it even more difficult for first time applicants to attain a firearm.

See there is the problem.

What we have is piss poor system. However how do we improve it, without turning into yet another racket for people to exploit?

• Exams - Who runs them. An Gardaí won't. They won't even approve the courses that are currently being run.
• Fees - ANOTHER cost to the average shooter. On top of the higher firearm prices, license fees, range/clubs fees, storage fees, security, etc.

I wouldn't be as troubled if the exam was part of the competence test, and someone actually failed. How many have you heard off that have failed a competence test. I have seen some people that shouldn't have a stick let alone a gun yet someone, somewhere deemed them fit. Why? Because the person that passed them was paid to do, and did not have to answer to a higher authority.

Vegeta wrote: »

I agree that all shooting requires care and knowledge but the rules are the same night or day. Do not fire if the shot is not safe and you are not 100% of your backstop.

Absolutely. 100%. Our safety record in matters of fieldsports speak for themselves.

Cass do you have more info on this, are submissions being made through the FCP?

There are still proposals being made through the FCP. By whom, i do not know. to what end, i don't know. However it scares me that the so called "Sports Coalition" is still going ahead with the ridiculous and impractical proposals they came out with before. Such as ballistic testing, etc.

As for more info. I was hesitant to post what i have because they are not the official minutes. However they can be long and hard to get so i'll post what i have with the note that they are reported minutes and not official.

Minutes from last FCP meeting wrote:

Minutes of Meeting of Firearms Consultative Panel

Monday 24 October 2016 at 12 noon

Department of Justice and Equality, 94 St. Stephens Green

Update on Firearms Licensing

Centralised Licensing

An Garda Síochána noted that the Commissioner has decided that there will be a single Chief Superintendent to decide on restricted firearm applications. As yet no decision has been taken as to which section within An Garda Síochána will be responsible but a decision is expected to be finalised in the near future.

Update on ballistic database of firearms

The Commissioner is not going to provide for the testing of all handguns at this time. The matter of ballistic testing will be dealt with on a case by case basis in accordance with Section 25B of the Firearms Act 1925 as amended.

The Sports Coalition outlined an alternative model for ballistic testing of handguns.

Update on reloading pilot scheme

There are two applicants for the pilot reloading project who are still working towards satisfying An Garda Síochána and Local Authority requirements on safety and security.

Update from AGS/IFA re storage conditions for Firearms

The Crimecall programme to be broadcast on October 24th will have a slot on safe storage of firearms.

Update on Commissioners’ Guidelines

While much work has been done on the Guidelines further matters are to be considered for incorporation including decision making on restricted licensing and the proposals on night time shooting.

The Commissioner will send the guidelines to the Minister in due course
for her consent.

The Sports Coalition raised the question of the establishment of a firearms assessment committee in advance of the establishment of the Firearms Assessment and Appeals Authority.

Update from NPWS on meeting regarding Night-time shooting/lamping

The group established to examine issues around night shooting safety is to finalise best practice guidance on night time shooting during November and thereafter the guidelines are to be circulated to all members of the Firearms Consultative Panel.

An Garda Síochána and the National Parks and Wildlife Service is to put in place a mechanism for the sharing of information on firearms relevant to wildlife crime and wildlife convictions.

Update on European Union initiatives in relation to Firearms

(A) Proposal for a DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN
PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL amending Council
Directive 91/477/EEC on control of the acquisition and possession of
weapons.

Following the agreement reached between Ministers in June, the Directive is now the subject of negotiations between the Council led by the Slovakian Presidency, the Parliament and the Commission. The Department does not anticipate that the Regulation will have significant implications for firearms regulation in Ireland.

Commission implementing Regulation establishing common
guidelines on deactivation standards and techniques for ensuring
that deactivated firearms are rendered irreversibly inoperable

The Department noted that it has received seven expressions of interest from firearms dealers who wish to be considered as deactivation entities and is awaiting further information from the majority of them.

The working group whose focus it is to revise the technical specifications in the annexes of the Deactivation Regulation is due to have further meetings in Brussels.

Safety Training for Firearms Ownership

There is a shared concern that firearms certificate applicants should be competent in the use of firearms and be able to demonstrate same to the deciding member of An Garda Síochána.

While An Garda Síochána will not endorse any specific training course, it will consider amending the Commissioners’ guidelines to place a greater emphasis on this area in particular for first time firearms certificate applicants.

The Department of Justice is drafting a best practice document for firearms dealers which will also provide guidance in this area. The shooting groups acknowledged that they too have an important role to play in ensuring their members are competent in the use of firearms.

Next Meeting
The next meeting will on 15th February at 11.30a.m.

ligertigon

I'm surprised the HSA hasn't jumped at this opportunity to start the ball with a guidelines pamphlet, followed by accreditation for tutor panel,

Grizzly 45

Get the HSA involved and you might as well quit shooting altogether.

Cass

ligertigon wrote: »

I'm surprised the HSA hasn't jumped at this opportunity to start the ball with a guidelines pamphlet, followed by accreditation for tutor panel,

For the same reason An Gardaí do not recognise any course. It would require regulation, training, and a lot of money they're not willing to spend. It would also shift liability away from the hunters/shooters and this causes a host of other issues.

In short they want to control us as best they can without actually taking responsibility for how that happens.

tac foley

Here in UK we tend to shoot at night only the same places we do during the day, and therefore know them well enough to be sure of the final destination of any misses.

tac

Cass

That is not a UK only thing. We do it here too, and pretty much everyone else in any other country would do the same.

The issue here is not one of safety, and this is the pessimist in me, it's the attempted combatting of poaching via other means. So you trot out a health and safety issue to disguise the attempt to limit or eliminate night shooting which means anyone caught shooting at night is guilty of an offence.

It would be like banning anyone that drinks from owning a car to prevent future drunk driving offences. Some might see that as a conspiracy or thinking the worse but name one time when a so called "review" or "proposal" intended for one use was not bastardised into something else.

Just look at the situation with semi auto centrefires. A temporary ban is illegal. They are either legal or not. Yet the Minister, after reading the proposal from the "sports coalition" said she intends to review the issue of semi autos and may enact a retrospective ban. Now people won't buy them for fear of loosing them at a later date. So there is no temporary ban/cap but yet one is in place.

Cass

BTW i need to reiterate the safety record that we have and have had for the last 150 years. All of which is self regulated. One off if not the highest off any sport. So if we're so safe, and have been for so long, why the need to introduce safety measures?

Rimfire Shooter

Weren't one or more of the deer organisations pushing for a ban on shooting using lamps?

tac foley

Cass wrote: »

The issue here is not one of safety, and this is the pessimist in me, it's the attempted combatting of poaching via other means. So you trot out a health and safety issue to disguise the attempt to limit or eliminate night shooting which means anyone caught shooting at night is guilty of an offence.

Ah, it's a bit like stating -

1. Poaching is illegal, and....

2. It's a well-known fact that most poaching is carried out at night using lamps/NVE etc.

3. So let's make ALL shooting at night illegal! So that's illegal for those who presently undertake this legal form of their sport at night, but DOUBLE illegal for them pesky poachers.

THAT'll teach 'em!

Yeah, makes real sense................

tac

Cass

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

Weren't one or more of the deer organisations pushing for a ban on shooting using lamps?

Yup. I also heard reports of proposals to eliminate any shooting at night with anything that is deer legal. IOW if you're caught out at night with anything over say 223 you're guilty of an offence.

This was a non runner from the start for many reasons, but it shows the way of thinking of some.

tac foley wrote: »

THAT'll teach 'em!

Yeah, makes real sense................

tac

Essentially, yes. Quite literally taring everyone with the same brush. Or a more accurate way to describe it would be to punish everyone in an attempt to target a few.

tac foley

Well, the democratically-elected government of the UK did it to the legal gun-owners there.

Twice.

tac

Cass

Shouldn't say this in case it happens, but i'd sooner have the "band aid" approach. If they're going to take it off us then just do it. This back handed, sideways approach that is illegal yet effective is strangling the sport.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Th
Just look at the situation with semi auto centrefires. A temporary ban is illegal. They are either legal or not. Yet the Minister, after reading the proposal from the "sports coalition" said she intends to review the issue of semi autos and may enact a retrospective ban. Now people won't buy them for fear of loosing them at a later date. So there is no temporary ban/cap but yet one is in place.

Not quite,As of this year she did a CF pistol stunt on them,IE grandfathered the liscense to those already out there.As they were informed that they would fall foul of Irish law and Article 14 of EU law,this is the cute hoor solution.Those that have ,get to keep them,and will slowly die off by attrition or make it difficult with refusals and the district court shuffle.So cover all the bases,no new liscenses will be issued,but those that have,keep,and havent any claim on the state. This is now the same proposal in the EU by Alan Alexis to avoid the 100s of billions this could cost the EU in compo and why the EU never did an impact report on this.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

........... grandfathered the liscense to those already out there.As they were informed that they would fall foul of Irish law and Article 14 of EU law,..................

Link to the SI or amendment to the statute law please.

Irish law as it stands allows for the licensing of semi auto centrefires, and as far as i know that has not been changed. If it has then it was done under the radar.

Even if EU law made them illegal we would need an SI or amendment to the act to make it law here. However after following the proposals in the EU since they began i have seen the majority of changes and the worse one was the mag limit for those not a member of a range (IOW people that have no reason to have high capacity mags).

All that along with the deacts, dealer stuff, etc.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Cass;101785469]Link to the SI or amendment to the statute law please.

Irish law as it stands allows for the licensing of semi auto centrefires, and as far as i know that has not been changed. If it has then it was done under the radar.

Statement Sept 20th last year
Immediate cap on licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic rifles

The Minister intends to introduce an immediate temporary cap on the licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic rifles pending the establishment and determination of the Authority.

Legislation will provide for the revocation of any licenses issued between today
(18 September 2015) and the enactment of the legislation and it is intended that anyone applying for licenses of this nature will be informed of that fact.


So IOW a cute hoor stroke,under the ministerial powers.No new liscenses for SA and those that exist can keep them.Doesn't need to be done by SI at all,just ministerial power.And once the big boys say in EU they must be banned......

Even if EU law made them illegal we would need an SI or amendment to the act to make it law here. However after following the proposals in the EU since they began i have seen the majority of changes and the worse one was the mag limit for those not a member of a range (IOW people that have no reason to have high capacity mags).
.

Bit of a change there again,for the worse. The comission issued a document on the 16th the day Firearms United were in Brussels putting the case forward,that the comission now wants a TOTAL BAN on any AK or AR style rifle and its derivitaves..Obviously forgetting god knows how many other stuff there is out there... How long do you think it would take Frannie to sign that SI into law and not even have it debated in the Dail or Senad??After all she has signed willy nilly any other piece of EU legislation in Brussels that has been put before her on this matter sofar.

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/EU-new-proposal-restrictions-firearms/

http://www.gunsweek.com/en/current/articles/eu-gun-ban-new-call-action-firearms-united#points-be-made-3179

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So IOW a cute hoor stroke,under the ministerial powers.No new liscenses for SA and those that exist can keep them.

You had me worried there for moment that some new SI or law was brought in.

You've got it wrong though, but its not your fault. A temporary cap is illegal. There is no legislation for temporary caps. An item is either allowed or not. The law says it is legal and can be licensed.

The statement you are referring to is a copy and paste of what the so called "sports coalition" called for and we informed them that asking for an illegal action only showed them to be foolish and to thin more carefully before writing. The Minister has acted outside her power by declaring a temporary cap, as there is NO LEGISLATION (and i use caps to emphasise, not shout) to support it/make it legal.

Same thing with the pistol ban. In November 2008 the Minister made a statement declaring that date to be the date the new legislation would be retrospectively applied from. However it was June 2009 when the Bill was signed into law. During that time anyone could legally buy and license a centrefire handgun, but only a fool would knowing that a ban was coming (albeit a grandfathering rather than outright ban).

Doesn't need to be done by SI at all,just ministerial power.

An SI (statutory instrument) is Ministerial power, not word of mouth.

No Minister has the power to enact legislation or even an SI by just saying so. It must be done via an Act, an Amendment to an existing act, or an SI. The SI being the quickest and easiest option for a Minister as they can sign it into being so long as a form of subordinate legislation.

Now my legal talk may not be the best so excuse me if it is not 100%, but that is the crux of the matter.

What you have at this very moment is the exact same thing as the pistols. The Minister made her statement in Sept 2016. If and when any legislation comes in it can be applied retrospectively from the date the Bill is made law back to Sept 2016. Meaning anyone that has bought one in that period will loose it, if the legislation says they are not longer to be licensed.

In the interim it has, as i said above, effectively stopped the buying and licensing until people know if they will be Grandfathered, outright banned, or not touched. She [the minister] can leave it in this state for as long as she wishes meaning the illegal temporary cap that she cannot use, has been bypassed, but with the same effect. No new licenses.

And once the big boys say in EU they must be banned......

Even if that happens, it will still require Irish legislation. Member states can impose harsher restrictions than EU law, but not more lenient. Not too sure on veto, but i think we can all agree that won't happen in relation to this subject.

Bit of a change there again,for the worse. The comission issued a document on the 16th the day Firearms United were in Brussels putting the case forward,that the comission now wants a TOTAL BAN on any AK or AR style rifle and its derivitaves..

Yeah i read that. There are unelected MEPs citing ridiculous numbers from 800 to 100,000 deaths in the last ten years at the hands of civilian owned semi auto rifles. Pure fiction.

Much like the Minister here using skewed figures to show how high gun thefts were. When we got the figures we discovered over 40% were not even a firearm under any legislation.

How long do you think it would take Frannie to sign that SI into law and not even have it debated in the Dail or Senad??

I've no doubt it'd be done in a New York Minute, but that is utterly outside our control. All we can do is keep writing, and keep contacting our MEPs, and TDs.

Grizzly 45

So IOW the only way to really take this down is simply to go and apply to liscense a new semi auto,and take it thru the courts to find out is it possible or not??Only way I can see this being challanged..

OK,who is going to stick their head over the parapet?:D

I've no doubt it'd be done in a New York Minute, but that is utterly outside our control. All we can do is keep writing, and keep contacting our MEPs, and TDs.

Better get writing tonite then...This could be in the parliment by next Tuseday!!
Again our only Irish MEP to respond and offer support was Marian Harkin MEP..

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So IOW the only way to really take this down is simply to go and apply to liscense a new semi auto,and take it thru the courts to find out is it possible or not??

If someone were to apply for a license then can do so. If a Chief Super were to refuse it, it must be on legal grounds and not on an illegal temporary cap or the promise of future legislation (that may or may not happen).

If such a refusal were to come then the only route to appeal, until this new civilian appeals thingy is up and running, is to bring it to court. Once there the Chief Super would have to reiterate his refusal reasons and if they were not "legit" or keeping within the law then the Judge may tell the CS to reconsider or simply issue the license.

Here is the kicker. The threat of future legislation has effectively caused a temporary cap/ban without issuing one. Who in their right mind would go through this process, go to court, and if successful, risk loosing it all if future legislation bans any new licenses which would work retrospectively to Sept of this year.

Again our only Irish MEP to respond and offer support was Marian Harkin MEP..

One, out of 11 (or is it 8 now) Irish MEPs. Also like national political parties, MEPs are also part of EU parties and will follow the party rule.

If you add in the lies being thrown about by some MEPs regarding the numbers of so called deaths at the hands of legally owned guns, coupled with ignorance shown at the voting earlier this year (towards the topic, and the details of it) and then add it all to the fact that they still have not, and apparently will not, do due diligence by completing fact checks, impact studies, cost analysis, etc.

I mean seriously. One unelected MEP said the number was in the 800 mark, another unelected MEP said it was 10,000, and the last unelected MEP said 100,000. Lies. All off it. Pure and utter made up numbers designed to sensationalise the issue.


Once again it shows how the impotent EU cannot protect it's citizens from terrorists, criminals, etc. so seek to show how "strong" they are by lying and taking from the very citizens it's meant to serve.

The EU is a failed, lame duck, and needs to be brought out the back and metaphorically shot. Its a disgrace that Ireland follows like a good lap dog, and heels at the command of it's EU masters.

With another reported story saying how we are expected to be paying even more to the EU in the coming years, how we were lied to by the Minsters before and during the financial crisis (they knew about the imminent collapse and did nothing then later denied it) that lead to the worst austerity measures of any country within the EU, all the while our so called leaders do backroom deals to seize any bit of power, give themselves a big rises while our old either freeze or starve, and our disabled are forced to feed, cloth and home themselves on €180 a week.

Enda Kenny gets more per year, actually almost twice as much, as the next EU country leader. Twice. When you go down the list he earns five times more than others.

Apologies for the political rant, i know this is not the place for it, but it sickens me when i see the corruption, scandals, lies, and excess that surrounds us and we as a people just sit back saying "they're is nothing i can do about it", and all the while our rights, liberties, freedoms, etc are taken away from us a piece at a time under the guise of protection.

The EU, like any institution, gets it power from the people, not the other way around. When people realise this perhaps then we will see meaningful change that benefits the people and not the unelected elite that live outside the realities of the 99%.


Rant over.

Grizzly 45

Well,as far as I am concerned the sooner this EU reich is dismantled and it goes back to a trading block with free movement of people and goods as what we signed up to and not a micro managing Federal superstate of unelected beuracrats the better.It seems to be the unelected by the people comission of Euro communists and other red lefties that insist on pushing this forward and insisting onthis ban .Go ahead ,Switzerland wont take it and will be out of Shenegen if they do,and after a few thousand court cases,which m any German EU law heads have said is inevitible under the German constitutional law and EU law if they plan on confiscation,will cause no end of trouble in the EU courts..Imagine the UK handgun ban on a power of 100 for fuk ups and compensation cases being settled.It is farscial with the mag bans,as nobody knows how many mags are out there,and even the deact ban is ridicilous as the guns are now been traded and sold in KIT form!!In fact the best option for them is to do nothing,as that would be more effective against criminality and terrorism than their planned meddling. But its not about that at all...Its about civillian disarmement under the guise of preventing terrorism... That really worked well here didn't it?:(

cavan shooter

Rimfire Shooter wrote:

Weren't one or more of the deer organisations pushing for a ban on shooting using lamps?

That's right at the same time they were saying anyone with a lamp at night is a poacher...good work on building relationships with other shooters.

I'm worried about the FCP were not hearing much about it. We could be blindly walking into a pile of ****. I have no problem with fire arm safety training but if you follow for example the SOLAS Construction programmes it's a pure ****e money making racket.