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Terminally ill British girl wins right to freeze her body

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135

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    #62
    Ayuntamiento
    Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭Ayuntamiento


    psinno wrote: »
    I doubt he would have gotten to say goodbye anyway since he was refused his requests to see his daughter for the last 8 years and he offered to agree to the cryogenics if he could say goodbye to her after she died.

    If he loved her why would he ever make conditional requests like that he would agree to cryogenics as long as he got access to her prior to her death. If that's the case then he's an absolute sc**bag.


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    #63
    Flint Fredstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Flint Fredstone


    Ted111 wrote: »
    It's a disputed point whether she is dead/permanently dead.
    Some argue that with no tissue damage, thawed and heart/life systems restarted that she will be up and foxtrotting around the place.

    No it's not. She died.


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    #64
    Ted111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Ted111


    Flint Fredstone wrote: »
    No it's not. She died.

    So if there's a patient in James' hospital tonight who is clinically dead and
    they are resuscitated, as far as your concerned the medical staff are suffering a mass hallucination and should promptly bury her alive.


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    #65
    Flint Fredstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Flint Fredstone


    Ted111 wrote: »
    So if there's a patient in James' hospital tonight who is clinically dead and
    they are resuscitated, as far as your concerned the medical staff are suffering a mass hallucination and should promptly bury her alive.

    She died from cancer. Hardly the same.
    Why are they not trying to resuscitate every patient that dies in hospital?


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    #66
    TireeTerror
    Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭TireeTerror


    There is more chance of her being revived and being cured than going to heaven or hell, yet plenty worship a fictitious load of pish every day of their lives. Humans are so weird.


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    #67
    Ted111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Ted111


    Flint Fredstone wrote: »
    She died from cancer.

    No. You said she died from freezing.

    Which is it ?


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    #68
    Flint Fredstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Flint Fredstone


    Ted111 wrote: »
    No. You said she died from freezing.

    Which is it ?

    I didn't say she died from freezing. I put forward a hypothetical which I see now that's what you were replying to.


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    #69
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    I'd be of the view the it's an extremely long shot that anyone will ever be revived from cryonics, but its still better than the absolute zero chance you'll have being revived from rotting in the ground or being incinerated. So if someone can afford it and it gives them peace of mind, more power to them. I'm not gonna stand in their way.


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    #70
    Ted111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Ted111


    Flint Fredstone wrote: »
    I didn't say she died from freezing.
    she would still be dead as freezing her solid would like... you know... kill her.

    Freezing and unfreezing her won't prevent her life systems restarting.
    When that was pointed out to you you changed your story to oh she's dying of cancer. Like that's up for debate.


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    #71
    Flint Fredstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Flint Fredstone


    Ted111 wrote: »
    Freezing and unfreezing her won't prevent her life systems restarting.
    When that was pointed out to you you changed your story to oh she's dying of cancer. Like that's up for debate.

    What are you on about? I said if she was frozen while still alive so again, I did not say she died from freezing.

    How many people have been unfrozen and brought back to life?


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    #72
    Ted111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Ted111


    Flint Fredstone wrote: »
    What are you on about? I said if she was frozen while still alive so again, I did not say she died from freezing.

    How many people have been unfrozen and brought back to life?

    Since you're too stupid to follow your own argument there's nothing I can do for you.


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    #73
    MrDiyFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭MrDiyFan


    it must cost a fortune?


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    #74
    Flint Fredstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Flint Fredstone


    Ted111 wrote: »
    Since you're too stupid to follow your own argument there's nothing I can do for you.

    Well done you.

    Maybe if I travel back in time and then teleport to a place with no Internet I can prevent this little exchange with you.


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    #75
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Something that many people appear to miss here, how do you properly grieve and get over the death of a loved one who may or may not actually be fully dead...ok, they probably are dead...but...

    Imagine living a life where every cancer breakthrough story means having to consider whether now is the time you might see your daughter again. Sorrow-hope-despair...repeat ad infinitum.

    I'd also be extremely critical of a company that takes the consent of a 14 yo girl to do this.


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    #76
    Edups
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Edups


    Ayuntamiento wrote: »
    The money has already been raised via a funding campaign. But yes you're right, what a selfish dying 14yr old cancer victim she was...

    Oh good throw in the cancer victim to make your point more valid

    Oh wait.


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    #77
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    To all the people calling her selfish, Id like to see you in her place, dying of a horrible painful slow death before you've even done your junior cert. Also she's ****ing 14, what child that young is going to be okay with death? How could you expect a 14 year old to be okay with that in any way? The comments on this thread are shocking


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    #78
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    Something that many people appear to miss here, how do you properly grieve and get over the death of a loved one who may or may not actually be fully dead...ok, they probably are dead...but...

    Imagine living a life where every cancer breakthrough story means having to consider whether now is the time you might see your daughter again. Sorrow-hope-despair...repeat ad infinitum.

    I'd also be extremely critical of a company that takes the consent of a 14 yo girl to do this.
    I do think you are right on the grieving part.....but I assume the parents here don't actually believe in this

    And presumably just wanted to do anything to help/ease their child minds to accept it.


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    #79
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,818 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    A lot of opinion but no one explains the process.
    How can someone who could be dead for 50 years be brought back to life.
    It's like a person dying on an operating table as there was simply no time to help them before they passed. If time is no issue then one could let a person die on table , treat their wounds and then bring them back once treated.


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    #80
    Flint Fredstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Flint Fredstone


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    A lot of opinion but no one explains the process.
    How can someone who could be dead for 50 years be brought back to life.
    It like a person dying on an operating table as there was simply no time to help them before they passed. If time is no issue then one could let a person die on table , treat their wounds and then bring them back one treated.

    Lightning or something???


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    #81
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,818 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Today’s technology has no way to revive a cryonically-suspended patient


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    #82
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Today’s technology has no way to revive a cryonically-suspended patient

    Yes the point is that theyre frozen until there is


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    #83
    Edups
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Edups


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Yes the point is that theyre frozen until there is

    And if there never is? They need to develop both a cure for cancer - and death. These cryo labs are con men. They promise the world to you while in fact you're not only dead - you're frozen and dead. This isn't science fiction this is real life. When you've died you're dead. It's horrible this happened to a child but that doesn't dispute the facts. Even if this was scientificly possible, she's never going to be back as the person she was. Who's to say she'll be back worse off than if she had died? I completely agree her father was against it, we don't spend 37k to preserve ourselves, when the time is up we are all going to die. If this had an credible evidence it worked we would all be saving for cryogenic storage not funerals. That girl has died she won't be back and the thing that upsets me most is those con men got another 40 grand to keep going a few weeks longer. No one wants to die either. But everyone gets to. That's how life works. We don't get to turn off dying because we are afraid. Doesn't make a difference what age you are.


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    #84
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Yes the point is that theyre frozen until there is
    The big problem, especially with a lot of the early cases won't be thawing - it is the freezing where trouble begins. Rate of freezing (it needs to be slow) is critical to avoid ice crystals forming, and it is the ice crystals that end up lysing cells. However too slow and cells end up dying anyway.

    In cell culture we use DMSO as a cryopreservant, which minimises the size of ice crystals formed, but DMSO is pretty toxic so when you thaw it needs to be as quickly as possible and removed.

    Not sure how they do whole body cryogenics but I suspect early adopters will be screwed in any case.


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    #85
    Skommando
    Registered Users Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Skommando


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Today’s technology has no way to revive a cryonically-suspended patient

    if there was they wouldn't need to be cryonically-suspended in the first place


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    #86
    Skommando
    Registered Users Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Skommando


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    A Journal comment on this actually made me laugh;

    'your brain cells are dead, at best you'll come back as a Daily Mail reader.'

    wheras journal readers will remain brain dead ;)


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    #87
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    Puts a lot in perspective. It doesn't bear thinking about that prospect to me at 29 let alone being 14. Life can be so cruel.

    That's true, but now we have the ability to gloss over that fact with fantastical ideas that death doesn't have to be forever.

    Of course, the flipside is that the mourning process also becomes never ending.


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    #88
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    A 14 year old dying of cancer can have anything she wants and if that bit of hope made things easier for her well so be it

    What ever happened to the old tried and tested way of dealing with this kind of thing:
    "You're going to see your auntie Bettie in heaven, and one day we'll all be together again"

    That solution has its flaws, but at least its scalable.


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    #89
    arayess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭arayess


    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/dad-of-cryogenically-frozen-girl-i-never-got-to-see-her-body-35228111.html

    interesting side story to this
    also interesting to hear from the fathers side - whatever his stance on this matter , him not being able to see his daughter was cruel.

    If this is true , the mother is a cnut.


    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/dad-of-cryogenically-frozen-girl-i-never-got-to-see-her-body-35228111.html

    The father of the 14-year-old girl cryogenically frozen after she died of cancer has spoken of his profound sadness that he was prevented by a judge from saying goodbye to her.
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    Mr S, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is also suffering from cancer and spent months in the same hospital as his daughter, JS, without ever being told she was there.
    Speaking for the first time since his daughter's death, he said he blamed his former wife for preventing him from even seeing his daughter's body before work began to embalm and freeze it.

    Other family members suggested JS had been "brainwashed" into thinking she could cheat death by signing up with the US-based Cryonics Institute, which is now storing her body in liquid nitrogen after she became convinced she could be cured and brought back to life in the future.
    JS died in a London hospital on October 17 and was immediately prepared for freezing by volunteers from Cryonics UK, the only British organisation working in the unregulated field of cryopreservation. Her estranged father had been opposed to the process, but JS won the right to be frozen after a judge in the Family Division of the High Court awarded sole responsibility for her post-mortem arrangements to her mother, who supported her wishes. The judge also refused Mr S permission to view his daughter's body because it was against JS's wishes.

    Mr S said: "Last time I saw her was in 2007. The reason for this is purely her mother's doing - she said no way, full stop. She has caused this sadness between me and my daughter and she died in the end without me being able to see her. It's so sad she didn't let me have any sight of her."
    Mr Justice Peter Jackson, who granted JS's wish in a court hearing 11 days before she died, said she had been the centre of "a tragic combination of childhood illness and family conflict".

    Her father revealed just how bitter and destructive the family rift had been.
    He and JS's mother separated in 2002, when their daughter was just a few months old. He estimated that he had been to court 10 times to ask for the right to see her and despite managing some contact with his daughter in 2005-06, his last face-to-face contact with her was when she was six.

    He said: "My daughter didn't even know all the court case procedures [through which] I have been so desperately trying to see her. I am so sad about it. Unfortunately it has ended this way."
    A paternal uncle of JS said: "I loved JS and I wanted to help her when she was ill. But her mother wouldn't let us get a second opinion. Only once, I talked to JS on the phone. She said 'I'm dying but I'm going to come back again in 200 years'. And then she asked me for £50,000. I said, 'Look, I don't know how they brainwashed you but this is impossible. If you find a professor in hospital who supports this theory then I will go out and find the money for you'.

    "But these companies are hope-traders. They are just trying to get money off people."
    The £37,000 cost of JS's cryopreservation was raised by her maternal grandparents, but a cousin of her mother said there had also been misgivings on that side of the family.

    A solicitor representing JS's mother said she did not want to comment.


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    #90
    Skommando
    Registered Users Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Skommando


    Beats me as to why anyone would want to try to survive longer 60-80 years in this world . . that's a very long tiring sentence.
    And at that stage you'd have seen more than enough of it, the same thing, and the same antics going on, over and over and over.
    Though granted, I can understand why a 14 year old or even someone in their 20-30's might not understand that yet.


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    #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A lot of what was seen as science fiction is fact now. We don't know what technology is around the corner in the next decades or so. Maybe we'll be able to do everything they say. Maybe she'll be back. But I can only imagine the hope it gives the family (and the girl who died) that while she is dead now, at some point in the future she might be alive again.

    That's what matters. Nothing more.


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