MATCH THREAD: Ireland vs NZ, 19/11/16, 1730 - Who is the greatest side of all time?

former total

Russell Crowe! Peter Jackson! Blokes from Flight of the Conchords! Your boys took one hell of a beating!

So said Robbie Henshaw in the immediate aftermath of the historic Irish victory over New Zealand in Soldier Field two weeks ago. And while we can forgive Robbie his youthful over-exuberance, boards.ie/rugby was built on steely-eyed analysis, devoid of any local bias, so we need to look a bit more deeply at it.

Did they take one hell of a beating? After 110 years of trying, Ireland finally managed to get the monkey off their backs, but how?

Let’s be honest; New Zealand did not play well. The Chicago game was a huge marketing opportunity for the best-known brand in rugby and the reports are that a lot of off-field appearances may have disrupted preparations. A cobbled-together second-row was dismantled at lineout time and Aaron Smith, hitherto the best scrum-half in the world, had a bit of a shocker. This week, Smith can’t be as bad, the team will be a lot more focussed and the second-row has gone from Tuipulotu/Kaino to Whitelock/Retallick. So, do we need to panic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSU_5MgtDc8

No, we don’t.

Plenty of Ireland teams have gone up against worse New Zealand teams and been beaten out the gate. Plenty of Ireland teams have built up leads against New Zealand and collapsed in the third quarter. And let’s face it, when Scott Barrett ghosted past Toner to make it 33-29 with 15 minutes to go, not many of us were confident that this was going to be any different.

But it WAS different. Where previous Irish teams would have mentally caved or physically run out of gas, this team dug deep, the hits got harder and the kick, chase and tackles that led to Henshaw’s try was one of the finest moments in Irish rugby history.

So yes, New Zealand were poor, but Ireland have plenty of room for improvement too. We conceded four tries and three of those were directly the result of pretty poor Irish defence, with five or six different culprits for Andy Farrell to berate in the video review. If they can improve, so can we. We won’t score 40 points this week, but I really hope we don’t concede 29 either.

Team Changes
Joe Schmidt surprised nobody by keeping change to a minimum. The injury profile of his squad has never been better and this is probably as close to a first-choice XV as he has ever named. The temptation to bring Sean O’Brien back in was too great - which is harsh on Josh van der Flier (second-highest tackler in Chicago in only 55 minutes) – but O’Brien’s all-round game meant once he proved his fitness, he was in.

On the bench, Henderson (if fit…) will give us serious impact while Jackson will give us a steadier head if we need to close the game out. A well-rested side should be able to stick with NZ for the 80 minutes, physically at least.

Steve Hansen has resisted the urge to make huge changes, and rightly so. A side that wins 18 tests in a row doesn’t become bad overnight. In come the second rows, and also a new midfield of Fekitoa/Lienert Brown, with Israel Dagg replacing Naholo on the wing. It’s only an eighth cap for Lienert Brown, and only his sixth start, but Dagg brings a lot more experience and certainly better aerial skills and positioning than Naholo.

Crucially, like the Ireland XV, the All Blacks will be well rested. The stroll against Italy last week allowed most of the side to be rested and only Sam Cane will have started all three tests. It is also rumoured that the off-field activities were scaled back, even the mandatory visit to the Guinness Storehouse was cancelled, so they should be more focussed.

Tactical Changes

Minimal, frankly.

Ireland, for all the tactical mastery of Joe Schmidt, have a limited style of play that is heavily based on the tactical kicking of their half-backs, whether kicking for touch or for their hard-working three-quarters to chase and gather. That won’t change. The game plan is to win territory and then break out the play book of rehearsed moves, be it the driving maul that led to Jordi Murphy’s try in Chicago, or the switch pass from the back of a scrum that led to Henshaw’s.


More of this please

New Zealand’s main priority from two week ago will be a more reliable set-piece and fewer dropped balls, but don’t expect to deviate much from the ball-in-hand philosophy which has made them the most successful and arguably the greatest team in the history of the sport.

We might see Barrett sit back a bit deeper, to counter-act the rush defence of Henshaw and Payne and to set up more space for the superior open-field runners outside him.
Alternatively, we might see them use some of their forwards carrying up the middle, trying to suck Ireland defenders into the tackle/ruck and again, opening up the spaces further out. If this starts to happen, it’s critical that Ireland slow down recycling of possession from the ruck and O’Brien’s ability on the deck could be important here.

Key Players
New Zealand have such phenomenal players in their ranks but, two weeks ago, Aaron Smith and Beauden Barrett failed to get them moving. If these guys click tomorrow, Ireland are in trouble. The return of Retallick and Whitelock in the row is also massive, not only at the lineout but in open play too, the NZ pack is going to have a much more balanced look to it and that is bad news for us.

It’s a bit of a cop-out to cite the half-backs as key players for Ireland too, but that is the reality of it. We saw two weeks ago how well Ireland can play when Murray is in imperious form and Sexton remains central to everything. Outside them, Robbie Henshaw was outstanding and will need to be again this week, shutting down the AB attack at source is crucial and Henshaw’s work rate and tackle count is key to this.

Miscellaneous Crap
After torrential rain yesterday, it’s bright and cold today and the forecast for tomorrow is similar, so hopefully we’ll have ideal conditions for a good game.
Referee is Jaco Peyper.
TV coverage is RTE2 and Sky Sports 2. Live radio commentary on RTE Radio 1.

Prediction Time
The bookies handicap is 16 points. When you think about it, considering we’re at home, that’s a pretty massive gap, but that’s the reality of it. Ireland are 6/1 to win a two-horse race on their own paddock.
Personally, I think we will lose and that’s OK. Just so long as we see a good performance and not the collapses that have so often followed good initial showings against New Zealand. If we’re in touching distance, I’ll be happy, and I’ll shoot with a 7-10 point win for New Zealand.

Teams:
Ireland: R Kearney; A Trimble, J Payne, R Henshaw, S Zebo; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, T Furlong; D Toner, D Ryan; CJ Stander, S O'Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, C Healy, F Bealham, I Henderson, J van der Flier, K Marmion, P Jackson, G Ringrose.


New Zealand: B Smith; I Dagg, M Fekitoa, A Lienert-Brown, J Savea; B Barrett, A Smith; J Moody, D Coles, O Franks; B Retallick, S Whitelock; L Squire, S Can, K Read (capt).

Replacements: C Taylor, W Crockett, C Faumuina, S Barrett, A Savea, TJ Perenara, A Cruden, W Naholo.


And just for good measure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T53EF4wtQo

Quint2010

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

I nodded off half way thru that...(joke)

6/1 you say?....

b.gud

Here you go former total

Awesomeness

Ireland by more than 15 - 55/1 . easy money

CMOTDibbler

Quint2010 wrote: »

I nodded off half way thru that...(joke)

6/1 you say?....

9/2 on PP now. NZ have come in from 10/1 on to 7/1 on.

What do PP know?

wp_rathead

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

9/2 on PP now. NZ have come in from 10/1 on to 7/1 on.

What do PP know?

That Irish people are being strangely optimistic ha

swiwi_

I haven't read the OP. No need. We all know the greatest side of all time is England 2003.

(Of course I did read it and very good it was too)

phog

I'm hoping this will be like Dublin bus, nothing for ages than two together.

While the win in Chicago was great another win and here at home would be deserving of a national holiday. To win tomorrow I think we need to be better than we were a fortnight ago and Joe will have spent the last fortnight highlighting things that went wrong and add to that that the lads are in camp a bit longer I'd expect to see those improvements.

I hate trying to predict scores and you'd have to expect some backlash from the ABs but I'm hoping for a home win.

Nice NZ preview here to get the juices flowing: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/86605973/The-All-Blacks-have-tended-to-make-rather-short-work-of-Ireland?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Quint2010

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

9/2 on PP now. NZ have come in from 10/1 on to 7/1 on.

What do PP know?

So NZ have gone out?

CMOTDibbler

Quint2010 wrote: »

So NZ have gone out?

As wp_rathead said, clearly a lot of money has gone on Ireland. THe bookies are just trying to make NZ a more attractive bet to spread the money.

7/1 on wouldn't entice me.

Quint2010

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice NZ preview here to get the juices flowing: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/86605973/The-All-Blacks-have-tended-to-make-rather-short-work-of-Ireland?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Terry Wright. Right.

Sanjuro

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice NZ preview here to get the juices flowing: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/86605973/The-All-Blacks-have-tended-to-make-rather-short-work-of-Ireland?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Slightly patronising, if factually correct. :mad:

dub_skav

Sanjuro wrote: »

Slightly patronising, if factually correct. :mad:

Well to be fair, an awful lot has changed in rugby in 111 years, hell a lot has changed in 11 years.
The relevant matches are the most recent ones - with some overlap of players and coaching staff. On that view we look pretty good, all our matches against them under Joe have been good for Ireland.
The only problem is the one immediately before that was a hiding.

However, the hiding was the last of 3 matches at the end of a season, away from home, under a different coach.

Using my "you're only as good as your last match (or2)" logic, we have nothing to fear.

Rightwing

Schmidt is maturing as an international coach, team selections are unquestionably better. NZ to win this 1 however, but we proved they are not well ahead of the pack, so it may be around a 10 point game. SH rugby is weak at the moment, this makes NZ look better than they actually are.

CMOTDibbler

Sanjuro wrote: »

Slightly patronising, if factually correct. :mad:

Not so much at the end though:

Ireland are now a different, more complete side under the coaching of New Zealander Joe Schmidt. And we're all the better for the fact that the outcome of their encounters with the All Blacks can be looked forward to with genuine uncertainty.
Long may that continue

irishbucsfan

Gallant defeat to the best team ever to play the game

Rightwing wrote: »

Schmidt is maturing as an international coach, team selections are unquestionably better. NZ to win this 1 however, but we proved they are not well ahead of the pack, so it may be around a 10 point game. SH rugby is weak at the moment, this makes NZ look better than they actually are.

Not bad going considering you were telling us to get rid of Schmidt for Pat Lam just a handful of months ago.

molloyjh

Gallant defeat to the best team ever to play the game

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not bad going considering you were telling us to get rid of Schmidt for Pat Lam just a handful of months ago.

It's mad that a guy who coached an international team to back to back 6Ns in his first 2 years hadn't matured as an international coach at that stage. RW must have enormous expectations for what Joe can achieve now that he is pushing on from those early days. #RightWingBelieves

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not bad going considering you were telling us to get rid of Schmidt for Pat Lam just a handful of months ago.

Correct, but back then he was picking chaps like D Kearney. Laughable. Now he has matured and will be judged accordingly.

sydthebeat

Gallant defeat to the best team ever to play the game

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct, but back then he was picking chaps like D Kearney. Laughable. Now he has matured and will be judged accordingly.

i dont think Joe Schmidt really gives a sh!t how you judge him to be honest.

minitrue

former total wrote: »

while Jackson will give us a steadier head

Have you forgotten Carbery's 22 minutes in Chicago already? I have no idea how anyone could be steadier then that.

I really feel sorry for him losing the 22 shirt for this game after that, it was an astonishingly calm and collected performance on debut in the worst possible scenario.

Mr Tickle

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

I don't think i can call this one with any confidence at all. The problem with calling results against NZ is that a very close game isn't always reflected in the scoreline.
If you're one score down with 10 mins left you have to throw caution to the wind and there's every chance they'll score two more.

former total

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

minitrue wrote: »

Have you forgotten Carbery's 22 minutes in Chicago already? I have no idea how anyone could be steadier then that.

I really feel sorry for him losing the 22 shirt for this game after that, it was an astonishingly calm and collected performance on debut in the worst possible scenario.

As much as I am a huge Carbery fan, and I would also love to have seen him tomorrow, those two missed kicks were down to nerves (and the game didn't really hinge on them). We have to be honest about that.

Based on what we've seen so far, Carbery could surpass Jackson and Sexton, but right now, if we're three points up with ten minutes to go, I'd be happier seeing Jackson stripping off.

CMOTDibbler

minitrue wrote: »

Have you forgotten Carbery's 22 minutes in Chicago already? I have no idea how anyone could be steadier then that.

I really feel sorry for him losing the 22 shirt for this game after that, it was an astonishingly calm and collected performance on debut in the worst possible scenario.

It's a good sign for the future. His only issue seems to be place kicking; his kicks from hand were very good.

It would be harsh on Jackson too. I'm sure Joe will have an eye on developing Carbery and he may well get a chance against Australia. Even if he doesn't, there will be a lot of games for Leinster leading up to the 6N and it will give him time to polish off the edges.

But definitely a far more assured performance than I was expecting. He has a way of playing that suits us and could potentially go a long way.

Mr Tickle

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's a good sign for the future. His only issue seems to be place kicking; his kicks from hand were very good.

It would be harsh on Jackson too. I'm sure Joe will have an eye on developing Carbery and he may well get a chance against Australia. Even if he doesn't, there will be a lot of games for Leinster leading up to the 6N and it will give him time to polish off the edges.

But definitely a far more assured performance than I was expecting. He has a way of playing that suits us and could potentially go a long way.

It also means that we're in a reasonably good way should sexton go down in the 6 nations.

Quint2010

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

former total wrote: »

As much as I am a huge Carbery fan, and I would also love to have seen him tomorrow, those two missed kicks were down to nerves (and the game didn't really hinge on them). We have to be honest about that.

Based on what we've seen so far, Carbery could surpass Jackson and Sexton, but right now, if we're three points up with ten minutes to go, I'd be happier seeing Jackson stripping off.

Well whatever does it for you!

minitrue

former total wrote: »

those two missed kicks

He slotted the conversion (to take us past a 10 point lead) but missed the late penalty we took to bleed the time off the clock. Where was the second miss?

I think if you pick your 10 or 22 to play NZ based on goal kicking you are setting yourself up for failure. But to be really clear, I was not suggesting it's a travesty he lost the shirt but that his performance in Chicago was superb and exceptionally calm so suggesting Jackson will bring steadiness was harsh.

CMOTDibbler

Mr Tickle wrote: »

It also means that we're in a reasonably good way should sexton go down in the 6 nations.

I'd imagine that's what's exercising Joe's mind. By rights, Sexton should be our starting out half for the next four years, but hoping that he'd make it to Tokyo would be foolish.

Which means plan B has to be Jackson and plan C; Carbery. Until and if someone better comes along, those two need to have enough game time to see who has the best potential to take over from Sexton.

I was always concerned that PJ was our only backup. I never really believed that Madigan was the answer and now suddenly we have a genuine second option just fall into our laps.

minitrue

Gallant defeat to the best team ever to play the game

minitrue wrote: »

He slotted the conversion (to take us past a 10 point lead) but missed the late penalty we took to bleed the time off the clock. Where was the second miss?

I think if you pick your 10 or 22 to play NZ based on goal kicking you are setting yourself up for failure. But to be really clear, I was not suggesting it's a travesty he lost the shirt but that his performance in Chicago was superb and exceptionally calm so suggesting Jackson will bring steadiness was harsh.

So far Carberry is 1 out of 4 for Ireland. Now the three he missed if I recall were all difficult enough kicks but you would expect him to be 2/2 by now.

Realistically we don't know his current kicking % because we don't have anything near enough a sample size but certainly by the six nations we will have a better picture if he starts kicking more regularly for Leinster.

I know a lot of people want to see him get game time for Ireland, but personally I'm happy to see him develop a little more with Leinster and am just glad we have a strong third choice option should we need it.

Neil3030

The win in Chicago has rendered this match a lot more important to the All Blacks for obvious reasons. Not ideal that they are now rolling into town thirsty to right a wrong, as opposed to having one eye on the beach. Hopefully Joe has a trick or two up his sleeve, but hard to see past them leveling the series.

stephen_n

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

Such a strange build up to a NZ gam. There is one part of me that doesn't care if we lose. Which is framed by the pragmatic logical side, that suggests NZ will be a far different prospect tomorrow, compared to two weeks ago. Then the more emotional part which suggests that if we did it then, we will probably be better now and more organised and could win it. Which leaves me in a not nervous but still excited state, which isn't normal for Irish games. Wish it would just hurry up and come at this stage.

I reckon New Zealand by one score, but hope I'm wrong.

former total

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

minitrue wrote: »

He slotted the conversion (to take us past a 10 point lead) but missed the late penalty we took to bleed the time off the clock. Where was the second miss?

You're correct, I'm confusing it with the Canada game when he was 0/2.

minitrue wrote: »

I think if you pick your 10 or 22 to play NZ based on goal kicking you are setting yourself up for failure. But to be really clear, I was not suggesting it's a travesty he lost the shirt but that his performance in Chicago was superb and exceptionally calm so suggesting Jackson will bring steadiness was harsh.

I'm not suggesting we pick our 22 based on goal-kicking, I'm suggesting we pick the more proven player. That is Jackson.

Bigbok

swiwi_ wrote: »

I haven't read the OP. No need. We all know the greatest side of all time is England 2003.

(Of course I did read it and very good it was too)

SA 2009 best team ever even said so by Richie MCCaw

CMOTDibbler

Bigbok wrote: »

SA 2009 best team ever even said so by Richie MCCaw

You seem to be a stranger to irony. swiwi_ was being very tongue in cheek.

A bit like the best ever soccer team was England 1966.

irishbucsfan

Gallant defeat to the best team ever to play the game

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You seem to be a stranger to irony. swiwi_ was being very tongue in cheek.

A bit like the best ever soccer team was England 1966.

It's funny how a joke about the myopic nature of some fans brings out the very same in others

awec

Gallant defeat to the best team ever to play the game

Ireland by 15+

Mr Tickle

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'd imagine that's what's exercising Joe's mind. By rights, Sexton should be our starting out half for the next four years, but hoping that he'd make it to Tokyo would be foolish.

Which means plan B has to be Jackson and plan C; Carbery. Until and if someone better comes along, those two need to have enough game time to see who has the best potential to take over from Sexton.

I was always concerned that PJ was our only backup. I never really believed that Madigan was the answer and now suddenly we have a genuine second option just fall into our laps.

and there's two or three other potential options floating around that could potentially come into play over the next few years.

irishbucsfan

Gallant defeat to the best team ever to play the game

awec wrote: »

Ireland by 15+

Welcome to the forum Mrs. Awec

b.gud

Bigbok wrote: »

SA 2009 best team ever even said so by Richie MCCaw

Buer

awec wrote: »

Ireland by 15+

Look at you....all optimistic and happy and married.


You've changed man.

molloyjh

Gallant defeat to the best team ever to play the game

awec wrote: »

Ireland by 15+

We need a boards meet up soon before this wears off....

wp_rathead

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

molloyjh wrote: »

We need a boards meet up soon before this wears off....

Think he just got the + in the wrong place and meant within the +15 handicap, :P

Adbrowne

wp_rathead wrote: »

Think he just got the + in the wrong place and meant within the +15 handicap, :P

Nah he was right the first time. Its not like he will ever get to say 15+ with Ulster. :rolleyes:

CMOTDibbler

Not to criticise Former Total or anything but, well it is a criticism; we have the date of the match, the television channels it's on and the teams and officials, but no kick off time?

I'd forgive the lack of a table, but in the circumstances, you failed there too :pac:

Up your game man! Joe Schmidt will be looking at the replays on Monday morning.

For the record it's 5:30pm

former total

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Not to criticise Former Total or anything but, well it is a criticism; we have the date of the match, the television channels it's on and the teams and officials, but no kick off time?

Thanks for the constructive criticism. It's been duly noted.

But if you need me to tell you the kick-off time, then you're not much of a fan, HAH?

Hey lads, is anyone else sick of these bandwagon jumpers?





<thread title begrudgingly updated>

swiwi_

Bigbok wrote: »

SA 2009 best team ever even said so by Richie MCCaw

Where is your sense of humour man?

If I was being serious it is of course Australia 1991, greatest team ever for sure.

Buer

swiwi_ wrote: »

Where is your sense of humour man?

If I was being serious it is of course Australia 1991, greatest team ever for sure.

Personally I like the 1999 Australian side, the 2003 NZ side, the 2011 Australian side and the 2015 NZ side.

Ireland 2016

dedaw

NZ to give us the rugby equivalent of a wedgie and take our lunch money

Where can I Stream the match from? Mobdro acting the pr#@k!
Cheers.

pickarooney

Buer wrote: »

Personally I like the 1999 Australian side, the 2003 NZ side, the 2011 Australian side and the 2015 NZ side.

France 1999

Buer

pickarooney wrote: »

France 1999

But they didn't knock SA out of the RWC.