The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

ancapailldorcha

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure - when the cost of manufacturing is lower in the target country, factories will move there.

Do you think Trump will be able to lower the cost of manufacturing in the US to compete with China? If so, how? - and will the people who voted for him want the resulting jobs?

If it were possible, he could implement huge tariffs on foreign imports. Then however, people would be forced to purchase much more expensive goods and things which can only be imported would only be available to the wealthy.

Lt Dan

Lt Dan wrote: »

Really? Not sure about that chief. Una Mullaley is already strong arming everyone for a seat on the Council

When Una Mullaley is voted into a legislative position, or even consulted on the formation of legislation then this might be an issue.

At the moment she is as powerful and influential as David Quinn, Fintan O'Toole and Gene Kerrigan.

Ryan Tubridy would have a bigger sway than her!

Yourself isit

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Not sure where the latter part of your claim came from. As to the former, can you disprove my statement? (Edited out) a link supporting my claim.

If you are glad that factory work has been eliminated then you are in fact glad that pensionable secure jobs were eliminated

The Cato institute isn't a bastion of scientific empiricism.

Yourself isit

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure - when the cost of manufacturing is lower in the target country, factories will move there.

Do you think Trump will be able to lower the cost of manufacturing in the US to compete with China? If so, how? - and will the people who voted for him want the resulting jobs?

The United States became the richest country in the world,and was always high waged, behind protective barriers. In the 19C.

You'd swear nobody could afford anything until china joined the world economy.

ancapailldorcha

Yourself isit wrote: »

If you are glad that factory work has been eliminated then you are in fact glad that pensionable secure jobs were eliminated.

Nope. I'm glad that people are now free to choose from a wide variety of courses available so they can pursue more fulfilling careers.

Yourself isit wrote: »

The Cato institute isn't a bastion of scientific empiricism.

And yet it's still more than you've provided.

legocrazy505

Yourself isit wrote: »

The United States became the richest country in the world,and was always high waged, behind protective barriers. In the 19C.

You'd swear nobody could afford anything until china joined the world economy.

The 19th century is irrelevant to the current situation. Factory jobs will become obsolete as we move toward AI and robotics, something which is already happening. Humans for manufacturing is dying, the American people would be much better off looking for what the future holds rather than nostalgically going on about the 19th century as if it can magically come back.

You can't just tell China "WE'RE TAKING OUR JOBS BACK BIGLY!" and you can't just tell companies that either. You earlier mentioned factories can move, maybe yes but why do you think companies will want to willing do that? Is it because they care so much about the middle-class white American? Is it because they care so much for America in general? The answer is no.

The only way you'll get manufacturing back for the few years it has left to live is by making it cheaper to run the shops in the US. How exactly will Trump achieve this? Lower taxes? That will have to involve hikes or cuts in other areas. Lower minimum wage? That will hurt the people who think Trump loves them.

A trade war is another option but all that will do is cripple the people who voted for him by raising the cost of production for the likes of Apple which in turn will result in exponential increases in the end price.

Face it this dream of getting those low-end jobs back is just a fantasy. People in America lose out either way. There is no way America today can beat out today's China when it comes to manufacturing jobs. The Democrats are just too afraid to tell people that and The Republicans will claim they can fix it tomorrow.

Yourself isit

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nope. I'm glad that people are now free to choose from a wide variety of courses available so they can pursue more fulfilling careers.



And yet it's still more than you've provided.

I can't link at the moment. However I'm pretty sure that it's fairly easy to google stagnant wages in the US. The country under discussion

(Ireland is different for historical reasons we didn't have much of an industrial proletariat)

The removal of the US's (and Britains, and much of Europe's) industrial base hasn't freed up most of the people who worked these jobs to become richer, more productive citizens with more interesting jobs. They are working 2-3 jobs at minimum wage in the US. Soon to be automated. They are on disability or long term employment in the EU.

All the while shouted at, if they have the audacity of being white, about their privilege.

Marx thought that the rise of the industrial proletariat would signal the end of capitalism. In fact by engaging with and garnering a good percent of the revenues of capitalism the unionised industrial working classes solidified capitalism. And with it democratic liberalism.

The demise of the proletariat will probably be the death knell of (an increasingly illiberal) liberalism.

ancapailldorcha

Yourself isit wrote: »

I can't link at the moment. However I'm pretty sure that it's fairly easy to google stagnant wages in the US. The country under discussion.

Where are you getting stagnant wages from? Stagnant wages are due to a variety of factors.

Yourself isit

legocrazy505 wrote: »

The 19th century is irrelevant to the current situation. Factory jobs will become obsolete as we move toward AI and robotics, something which is already happening. Humans for manufacturing is dying, the American people would be much better off looking for what the future holds rather than nostalgically going on about the 19th century as if it can magically come back.

You can't just tell China "WE'RE TAKING OUR JOBS BACK BIGLY!" and you can't just tell companies that either. You earlier mentioned factories can move, maybe yes but why do you think companies will want to willing do that? Is it because they care so much about the middle-class white American? Is it because they care so much for America in general? The answer is no.

The only way you'll get manufacturing back for the few years it has left to live is by making it cheaper to run the shops in the US. How exactly will Trump achieve this? Lower taxes? That will have to involve hikes or cuts in other areas. Lower minimum wage? That will hurt the people who think Trump loves them.

A trade war is another option but all that will do is cripple the people who voted for him by raising the cost of production for the likes of Apple which in turn will result in exponential increases in the end price.

Face it this dream of getting those low-end jobs back is just a fantasy. People in America lose out either way. There is no way America today can beat out today's China when it comes to manufacturing jobs. The Democrats are just too afraid to tell people that and The Republicans will claim they can fix it tomorrow.

I don't think the increases in iPhone prices (if any) is going to cripple the working classes.

I reject your deterministic world view. Humans apparently can't change the world they live in. Factories will do this. Companies will do that. No political charge can ever happen. I disagree.

If the Chinese had kept Maoism and the Indians had kept autarky then the factories would be in the US and Europe and surviving. As they used to.

Yourself isit

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Where are you getting stagnant wages from? Stagnant wages are due to a variety of factors.

yes. Globalisation, immigration and outsourcing.

Tony EH

Yourself isit wrote: »

yes. Globalisation, immigration and outsourcing.

All of which are essentially right wing endeavours, if one includes immigration as a source of cheap labour and a way to drive wages and work conditions down.

What makes you think that the right wing are inclined to reverse these priciples that they were so wedded to before.

ancapailldorcha

Tony EH wrote: »

All of which are essentially right wing endeavours, if one includes immigration as a source of cheap labour and a way to drive wages and work conditions down.

What makes you think that the right wing are inclined to reverse these priciples that they were so wedded to before.

Can you prove that immigration lowers wages?

TheOven

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can you prove that immigration lowers wages?

I remember reading before that is lowers wages at the lower end but still has a positive outcome overall for the economy. Not sure how reliable this link is but it looks to match that and has links to research done on the topic.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/06/01/does-immigration-suppress-wages-its-not-so-simple/

ancapailldorcha

TheOven wrote: »

I remember reading before that is lowers wages at the lower end but still has a positive outcome overall for the economy. Not sure how reliable this link is but it looks to match that and has links to research done on the topic.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/06/01/does-immigration-suppress-wages-its-not-so-simple/

I've read that at the lower end, the effect is quite slight, not more than a few percent and yet we're presented constantly with the unsubstantiated narrative that it's systemically lowering wages for everyone.

K-9

Cut business taxes and regulations is Trump's solution, which is assuming that is always a good thing.

ancapailldorcha

K-9 wrote: »

Cut business taxes and regulations is Trump's solution, which is assuming that is always a good thing.

I think occupational licencing needs a serious cutting back. It's a form of protectionism. I'm in favour of environmental regulations and in a few other cases but that seems less likely.

Tony EH

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can you prove that immigration lowers wages?

I've seen it in Ireland. We had a building boom with an industry that used to popularted by Irish people. During that boom, thousands of Poles came to Ireland for work and were willing to work for less than a lot of Irish people were and live in conditions that could be shocking at times. By the middle of the boom in the mid naughties, it was rare to find Irish labourers. Most Poles knew that their time in Ireland was going to be a temporary situation and they were probably going to be heading back home at some stage, so were willing to put up and in any case, the work situation back home was dire.

There's also the likes of zero hour contracts in Britain, I think, that are largely taken up by immigrants, desperate to have some sort of job. These people's labour is exploited in a most awful way and there's signs that these zero hour conditions are spilling over into other areas of work at the lower end of the pay scale.

ancapailldorcha

That's not evidence at all.

legocrazy505

Yourself isit wrote: »

I don't think the increases in iPhone prices (if any) is going to cripple the working classes.

I reject your deterministic world view. Humans apparently can't change the world they live in. Factories will do this. Companies will do that. No political charge can ever happen. I disagree.

If the Chinese had kept Maoism and the Indians had kept autarky then the factories would be in the US and Europe and surviving. As they used to.

So tell us then since you seem to know what we "should" be doing, "changing" the world, what would it take to get US and MNCs, in general, to start manufacturing again in the west? Start listing policies or we're done.

My Apple case is just an example but please to act like the iPhone is exclusive to the wealthy in society these days is a bit ridiculous. Cars, toys, any piece of tech and countless other things are manufactured in places like China so please stop lying when you claim price increases because a trade war won't affect the white middle-class who voted Trump.

K-9

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think occupational licencing needs a serious cutting back. It's a form of protectionism. I'm in favour of environmental regulations and in a few other cases but that seems less likely.

There may be less will to actually enforce some legislation.

As for labourers, the labour court had high minimum wage agreements for them so that would limit a lot of downward wage pressure. Plus we had full employment.

WoolyJumper

The alt right usually have a complicated relationship with free speech. They tend to feel their free speech is being taken away. The actual problem is people with different views from them also have free speech...allowing them to freely comment on, criticise and ridicule their opinions.


They also tend to throw around meaningless cringy terms like feminzi, SJW's and special snowflakes about people who have differing opinions from them.

ancapailldorcha

K-9 wrote: »

There may be less will to actually enforce some legislation.

As for labourers, the labour court had high minimum wage agreements for them so that would limit a lot of downward wage pressure. Plus we had full employment.

Trump has a Republican-majority congress behind him so it's possible he could get some of his manifesto through.

GreenFolder2

WoolyJumper wrote: »

The alt right usually have a complicated relationship with free speech. They tend to feel their free speech is being taken away. The actual problem is people with different views from them also have free speech...allowing them to freely comment on, criticise and ridicule their opinions.


They also tend to throw around meaningless cringy terms like feminzi, SJW's and special snowflakes about people who have differing opinions from them.

The biggest snowflake of the lot is actually Trump.
How many presidents elect have ever gone after a Broadway show cast demanding apologies and ranting about how "theatre is supposed to be a safe space".

Poor little frsbkle flower seems to have forgotten about all the nasty rents he went on over the last few months. Where were the safe spaces then?

MRnotlob606

Alt Right consists of a bunch disgruntled teenagers who post on 4chan and try to blame their ills on any sort of ism they can find, feminism, socialism, communism, marxism. Theoretically they are like they guys had too many pints at the bar and just rambles on.

Chuchote

Alt-Right is a new name for white supremacists. Or in the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) definition:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/alt-right

alt-right
NOUN

(in the US) an ideological grouping associated with extreme conservative or reactionary viewpoints, characterized by a rejection of mainstream politics and by the use of online media to disseminate deliberately controversial content:

and in an OED blog about the question of this word being added to the dictionary:

https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/11/alt-right/

At an event in Nevada back in August, Democratic Presidential nominee Hillary Clinton headed to a community college, often a favourite venue for politicians to talk about education. But her theme this time wasn’t student debt or making university accessible – she decided to talk about her opponent’s ideology, one she described as based on ‘prejudice and paranoia’. The Democratic nominee told her supporters in Reno that Donald Trump wasn’t espousing ‘Conservatism as we have known it’, but instead was taking up ‘racist, race-baiting, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-women ideas – all key tenets making up an emerging racist ideology known as the “alt-right”.’

Brian?

Yourself isit wrote: »

Well that and your open borders extremism. Not a belief the unskilled can afford.

There are billions of unskilled workers in Asia and Africa who's only hope is globablisation and increasingly open economic borders.

They can move in either direction.

Let's put it this way. No matter what Trump does, it will be prohibitively expensive to move most manufacturing jobs back to the US.

GreenFolder2

The big issue is that Trump, a wealthy populist from liberal NYC, has basically played to the far right, alt right and all sorts of disgruntled types to get to the Whitehouse.

He's made a lot of ludicrous and dangerous promises and has basically whipped up all sorts of nasty stuff simply to get into power.

My concern now is that having portrayed himself as this right wing leader type, he will fail to deliver economically and will leave angry groups who are keen to take out their frustrations on all sorts of "others".

Whatever about being a Republican (which Trump really isn't) or a Democrat, this presidential race (well just Trump) has opened a can of worms that's going to be very difficult to close.

I fully expect to see huge social problems and social unrest in the USA over the next few years. What's just happened isn't likely to be something that can just fizzle out without any consequences.

Trump and his populism have just given a huge boost to a whole load of scary organisations that have been bubbling away behind the scenes and below the radar for a long time. He's played with fire on this one and I don't think he gives a damn about the consequences as long as he got himself into the oval office.

Lt Dan

WoolyJumper wrote: »

The alt right usually have a complicated relationship with free speech. They tend to feel their free speech is being taken away. The actual problem is people with different views from them also have free speech...allowing them to freely comment on, criticise and ridicule their opinions.


They also tend to throw around meaningless cringy terms like feminzi, SJW's and special snowflakes about people who have differing opinions from them.

Snowflakes has become a very well defined term actually. It is a pretty good description of the attitudes of the people today, in particular the youth of today. So not sure about how it is a meaningless word

SJW is also pretty well defined as well

Of course, then you have the left wing groups and their need to shout "racism", " sexist", "bigot" , yet, a lot of the times, whatever disagreeable statement is made, it falls short of the true definition. Oh, and "hate" has be taken onto another level

Free speech is not being restricted by someone shouting those "cringey" words. That speaker has not been stopped from speaking. There are no laws against Snowflakes or SJW''s. In fact, there are laws against the speech of bigots, racists, sexists etc. All of that is fine, no issue with that. The issue is however, the over eagerness for those seeking to shut down the "alt right" even where their statements fall way short of the dictionary and legal meaning of the aforementioned terms

Lt Dan

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

The big issue is that Trump, a wealthy populist from liberal NYC, has basically played to the far right, alt right and all sorts of disgruntled types to get to the Whitehouse.

He's made a lot of ludicrous and dangerous promises and has basically whipped up all sorts of nasty stuff simply to get into power.

My concern now is that having portrayed himself as this right wing leader type, he will fail to deliver economically and will leave angry groups who are keen to take out their frustrations on all sorts of "others".

Whatever about being a Republican (which Trump really isn't) or a Democrat, this presidential race (well just Trump) has opened a can of worms that's going to be very difficult to close.

I fully expect to see huge social problems and social unrest in the USA over the next few years. What's just happened isn't likely to be something that can just fizzle out without any consequences.

Trump and his populism have just given a huge boost to a whole load of scary organisations that have been bubbling away behind the scenes and below the radar for a long time. He's played with fire on this one and I don't think he gives a damn about the consequences as long as he got himself into the oval office.

If Trump, and this is a big if, lifts the economy, a lot of the problems will be swept under the carpet. You know what Clinton's people said, "economy , stupid".

Can Trump really be blamed for the rise of the Alt Right? It clearly was already present. At least we know that Trump is really a liberal and even a Democrat in disguise. He can be reasoned with, he may well be a little more predictable compared to the true leaders of the Alt Right

Lt Dan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Trump has a Republican-majority congress behind him so it's possible he could get some of his manifesto through.

Did and does Trump really have many in the Republicans truly behind him?