The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

20Cent

What is the alt right?
Been hearing the term used more frequently since Trump has been elected.
I thought it was just milo and Katie Hopkins type trolling but it seems to be something bigger than that.

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Thanks.

Manach

From a subjective basis and purely on my flawed observations:

They are the mirror image of the SJW types. There are a few common threads, disengagement with conventional politics and a wiliness to rebel against the now liberal societal norms. There are a disparate groups, from the alt-white that are taking the identity language politics pioneered by the left to disillusioned libertarians or those who feel ill at place in a very change world. In the US some of their ideological writers are the likes of Ann Coulter and they subscribe to newsite Breitbart (named after the late right-wing journalist of that name who had little time for the main stream national press). They also seem to have a distaste for old-school conservatives (hence the phrase cuckservative) who they regard as the perennial bow-tied losers to the left in the culture wars. They seem to more open to alternative life style choices, so long as they are perceived to be on message ( hence Milo Y. will remain a key figure in their ranks),

To sum up, the alt-right have taking the culture shaming tags used by the PC left and have embraced them as badges of merit.

alastair

20Cent wrote: »

What is the alt right?
Been hearing the term used more frequently since Trump has been elected.
I thought it was just milo and Katie Hopkins type trolling but it seems to be something bigger than that.

It's not a whole lot more than that tbh. A loose and lazy label for a broad range of reactionaries - from white pride racists to the professional dicks you mentioned. It's simply those who don't fall under the umbrella of mainstream conservatism groupings. There's not a whole lot of commonality amongst this supposed group.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

20Cent

What do the alt right actually want?

Do they want to be racist etc without anyone pulling them up on it?

20Cent

Manach wrote: »

From a subjective basis and purely on my flawed observations:

They are the mirror image of the SJW types. There are a few common threads, disengagement with conventional politics and a wiliness to rebel against the now liberal societal norms. There are a disparate groups, from the alt-white that are taking the identity language politics pioneered by the left to disillusioned libertarians or those who feel ill at place in a very change world. In the US some of their ideological writers are the likes of Ann Coulter and they subscribe to newsite Breitbart (named after the late right-wing journalist of that name who had little time for the main stream national press). They also seem to have a distaste for old-school conservatives (hence the phrase cuckservative) who they regard as the perennial bow-tied losers to the left in the culture wars. They seem to more open to alternative life style choices, so long as they are perceived to be on message ( hence Milo Y. will remain a key figure in their ranks),

To sum up, the alt-right have taking the culture shaming tags used by the PC left and have embraced them as badges of merit.

Ann Coulter, Breitbart, Milo are there any intellectual alt right leaders or is it more a low brow thing?

Inquitus

Go to https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/ for a true insight into the Alt Right at ground level

super_furry

20Cent wrote: »

What do the alt right actually want?

Do they want to be racist etc without anyone pulling them up on it?

Kinda. For the most part they're operating under the misconception that “straight white men” are being oppressed and victimised from all angles. As they see it black people, feminists, politicians, teachers and all myriad other ranges of “liberals”, are actively conspiring to take their rights away and subjugate them.

It's a movement born from American internet forums and one that's slowly spread. Professional conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones and professional provocateurs like Ann Coulter and Breitbart have helped to grow it.

alastair

20Cent wrote: »

Ann Coulter, Breitbart, Milo are there any intellectual alt right leaders or is it more a low brow thing?

Nick Land, and the dark enlightenment is about as 'intellectual' as it gets with this bunch. http://www.thedarkenlightenment.com/the-dark-enlightenment-by-nick-land/

ancapailldorcha

This is an important topic well worthy of an intelligent debate. Refrain from posting memes please.

It full of contradictions.

For example as far as I can make out they have no issue with being gay just don't try and have your rights valuated by a court especially the supreme court, the seem to have a hatred of legally mandated rights.

However I was reading a piece by a conservative critic of global development in poorer countries and it was highly critical of the likes of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation approach arguing that the only development that works is organic grassroots/people solving there own problem ( something I agree with ) along with legal rights for the poor in developing countries, so on the one had a dislike of legal right on the other hand not.

20Cent

So found out a bit more about this alt right. Ironically they communicate quite a lot by meme. They are mostly single white males attracted to female Japanese cartoon characters drawn in a style called anime. The don't seem to have any founding principles, intellectual leadership or presence off the internet. They mostly come from 4chan or another anime site called 8chan.

The alt-right supports the mass deportation of undocumented immigrants and protectionist trade policies. It opposes feminism, diversity, gay rights, globalism, gun control and civil rights.
Professor Thomas J. Main

They are a backlash against the "social justice warrior" and political correctness. They also are against traditional mainstream conservatism which they consider to be ignoring the most important issues. Namely why can't they call Caitlin Jenner He, why are Muslims still breathing and why do people challenge their opinions.

They have latched onto Donald Trump since he "tells it like it is" and has policies to their liking. Mostly the deportations of millions of people from the US and open discrimination against Muslims. They are also big fans of building a 25 billion dollar wall across 3,000km of desert and mountains.


That right?

hatrickpatrick

Manach wrote: »

From a subjective basis and purely on my flawed observations:

They are the mirror image of the SJW types. There are a few common threads, disengagement with conventional politics and a wiliness to rebel against the now liberal societal norms. There are a disparate groups, from the alt-white that are taking the identity language politics pioneered by the left to disillusioned libertarians or those who feel ill at place in a very change world. In the US some of their ideological writers are the likes of Ann Coulter and they subscribe to newsite Breitbart (named after the late right-wing journalist of that name who had little time for the main stream national press). They also seem to have a distaste for old-school conservatives (hence the phrase cuckservative) who they regard as the perennial bow-tied losers to the left in the culture wars. They seem to more open to alternative life style choices, so long as they are perceived to be on message ( hence Milo Y. will remain a key figure in their ranks),

To sum up, the alt-right have taking the culture shaming tags used by the PC left and have embraced them as badges of merit.

This is a good description. An example would be the term "sh!t lord" which was coined by SRS (arguably the original root of the SJW movement) to describe un-PC people, whereas those on the alt-right jokingly refer to themselves as sh!t lords and say things like "Don't you know I'm the LORD of sh!t? Bow down peasants" and what not.

As I've said in my thread about Brexit and Trump in the Cafe, I fully believe the alt-right to be a nasty and inevitable consequence of SJW muppetry on the left, which could easily be described as the alt-left. They started a cultural war which they were apparently blind to the natural consequences of - namely, the creation of an equally extremist counter force on the opposite side.

alastair

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is a good description. An example would be the term "sh!t lord" which was coined by SRS (arguably the original root of the SJW movement) to describe un-PC people, whereas those on the alt-right jokingly refer to themselves as sh!t lords and say things like "Don't you know I'm the LORD of sh!t? Bow down peasants" and what not.

As I've said in my thread about Brexit and Trump in the Cafe, I fully believe the alt-right to be a nasty and inevitable consequence of SJW muppetry on the left, which could easily be described as the alt-left. They started a cultural war which they were apparently blind to the natural consequences of - namely, the creation of an equally extremist counter force on the opposite side.

When they finally get girlfriends, they'll grow tired of being trolls.

20Cent

So the alt right Queen Milo interviewed on Channel 4 News. There is the usual shouting talking over and rude behavior from him. It does highlight a large issue with the alt right.

That is can one be provocative/satirical/mischievous or serious but not both.

They also have their own definitions of issues ie what feminism is.
One interesting thing is how he says they want to be fact based and post truth.

You can actually see the moment milo realises he's been shown to be full of it at about 4.50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJiNeCBpCHQ

Brian?

20Cent wrote: »

So the alt right Queen Milo interviewed on Channel 4 News. There is the usual shouting talking over and rude behavior from him. It does highlight a large issue with the alt right.

That is can one be provocative/satirical/mischievous or serious but not both.

They also have their own definitions of issues ie what feminism is.
One interesting thing is how he says they want to be fact based and post truth.

You can actually see the moment milo realises he's been shown to be full of it at about 4.50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJiNeCBpCHQ

I wonder if these alt right talking heads all go to a class that teaches them a particular interview style. Milo, Ann Coulter, Katie Hopkins etc. all have the exact same delivery in interviews. They talk about what the want to talk about, regardless of the questions asked. They interrupt and behave condescendingly towards the interviewer. For me, whatever intelligent points are contained in their word salad gets lost in delivery.

there seems to be this belief that the alt right is a reaction to something on the left. I am not aware of a single hate monger on the left that can be compared to these people. They profess to be "telling it like it is", but they aren't. They are pouring a potent mixture of half truths and anti immigration rhetoric into the conversation. They are telling it like they see it, because they are afraid. Afraid of social progress which inevitably shifts society more tolerant.

K-9

20Cent wrote: »

So found out a bit more about this alt right. Ironically they communicate quite a lot by meme. They are mostly single white males attracted to female Japanese cartoon characters drawn in a style called anime. The don't seem to have any founding principles, intellectual leadership or presence off the internet. They mostly come from 4chan or another anime site called 8chan.

The alt-right supports the mass deportation of undocumented immigrants and protectionist trade policies. It opposes feminism, diversity, gay rights, globalism, gun control and civil rights.
Professor Thomas J. Main

They are a backlash against the "social justice warrior" and political correctness. They also are against traditional mainstream conservatism which they consider to be ignoring the most important issues. Namely why can't they call Caitlin Jenner He, why are Muslims still breathing and why do people challenge their opinions.

They have latched onto Donald Trump since he "tells it like it is" and has policies to their liking. Mostly the deportations of millions of people from the US and open discrimination against Muslims. They are also big fans of building a 25 billion dollar wall across 3,000km of desert and mountains.


That right?

Milo was on the BBC radio podcast the Briefing Room and that about sums it up, speaks well and makes some good general, vague points but there is no real substance to it. It's typical reactive conservatism, your Stormfront types, conspiracy theorists and the mens rights/PUA groups that have grown up over the last 10 years or so. The common denominator is fear.

When asked to name anything constructive that might out of this, something specific or an actual plan, he was at a loss.

Chips Lovell

Why is this chap being interviewed by C4? He once worked for Steve Bannon?

ancapailldorcha

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Why is this chap being interviewed by C4? He once worked for Steve Bannon?

Still does AFAIK. He's Breitbart's technology editor unless he recently left.

PopePalpatine

Brian? wrote: »

I wonder if these alt right talking heads all go to a class that teaches them a particular interview style. Milo, Ann Coulter, Katie Hopkins etc. all have the exact same delivery in interviews. They talk about what the want to talk about, regardless of the questions asked. They interrupt and behave condescendingly towards the interviewer. For me, whatever intelligent points are contained in their word salad gets lost in delivery.

there seems to be this belief that the alt right is a reaction to something on the left. I am not aware of a single hate monger on the left that can be compared to these people. They profess to be "telling it like it is", but they aren't. They are pouring a potent mixture of half truths and anti immigration rhetoric into the conversation. They are telling it like they see it, because they are afraid. Afraid of social progress which inevitably shifts society more tolerant.

I watched the video of Milo on Channel 4 posted here, and watching him talking over Cathy Newman reminded me of when someone was drowned out at one of his sermons with choruses of "CUCK! CUCK! CUCK!" when that guy dared raise his voice. They're not averse to shouting down opposing viewpoints on their own turf, like the social justice warriors on college campuses they despise.

I'm disappointed Cathy didn't delve further into the piece Milo wrote on how women should behave on "the men's Internet", and compare it against the piece he wrote a few years ago calling for trolls to be banned from the Internet. Then again, the site he wrote it for - which he also ran - had to be sold off because he couldn't keep it in the black.

IMHO, the movement is a more presentable form of the "neo-reactionaries" that grabbed a few headlines a year or so ago thanks to that rapey PUA and his "tribal meetings".

20Cent

Brian? wrote: »

I wonder if these alt right talking heads all go to a class that teaches them a particular interview style. Milo, Ann Coulter, Katie Hopkins etc. all have the exact same delivery in interviews. They talk about what the want to talk about, regardless of the questions asked. They interrupt and behave condescendingly towards the interviewer. For me, whatever intelligent points are contained in their word salad gets lost in delivery.

there seems to be this belief that the alt right is a reaction to something on the left. I am not aware of a single hate monger on the left that can be compared to these people. They profess to be "telling it like it is", but they aren't. They are pouring a potent mixture of half truths and anti immigration rhetoric into the conversation. They are telling it like they see it, because they are afraid. Afraid of social progress which inevitably shifts society more tolerant.

There is definitely similarities between them. Wouldn't be surprised if there was some training involved. The combative approach, smug rolling eyes, little digs to wind up the other person etc. Also would question their sincerity it comes across as an act to me like the evil stepsister in a pantomime.
If you see Milo from even a few years ago he has changed a lot. Now he is like a parody of himself, Sacha Baron Cohen's Bruno.
They have found a disenfranchised vulnerable group they can peddle their product to and are doing it with gusto.

Amazingfun

Strange, I posted earlier that Milo is both Jewish and Gay, stating himself quite clearly that he is NOT #altright, but it seems to have been deleted. Curious that.

alastair

Amazingfun wrote: »

Strange, I posted earlier that Milo is both Jewish and Gay, stating himself quite clearly that he is NOT #altright, but it seems to have been deleted. Curious that.

As is the removal of my comment that young white western males are hardly a disenfranchised vulnerable group.

alastair

Amazingfun wrote: »

Strange, I posted earlier that Milo is both Jewish and Gay, stating himself quite clearly that he is NOT #altright, but it seems to have been deleted. Curious that.

Keep in mind he said on Nov 8th that, while the term was loose and broad, he was associated with the trolling mischievous wing of the alt-right. And the 'merely a reporter' line he's rolling out now is at odds with someone who's repeatedly referenced his 'followers' and 'winning over campuses' on his lecture/trolling tour.

Amazingfun

So what? He is a clever self promoter is all.
Funny how there is so much sudden interest/outrage at the altright, see there's even a "protest" on in Washington right now, lol, quite bizarre really. I mean, it's just a bunch of girlfriend-less online trolls, according to the experts on this thread--what are they so afraid of ;-)

alastair

Amazingfun wrote: »

So what? He is a clever self promoter is all.
Funny how there is so much sudden interest/outrage at the altright, see there's even a "protest" on in Washington right now, lol, quite bizarre really. I mean, it's just a bunch of girlfriend-less online trolls, according to the experts on this thread--what are they so afraid of ;-)

It's about Katie Hopkins level importance; as in not at all, but great media fodder. At least George Galloway tries to act as a public representative in between talking bollocks. Notice boxes will be notice boxes.

hatrickpatrick

But again does nobody see the double standard here? Extremist SJWs who behave just as badly as people like Milo (and who in my view are responsible for creating his brand of reactionism) don't get dissected and called out in this manner, not in mainstream discourse. The Alt-Right is socially unacceptable, the SJW left is not. That's a major, major difference which in my view makes all the difference in terms of which is the more dangerous movement.

alastair

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

But again does nobody see the double standard here? Extremist SJWs who behave just as badly as people like Milo (and who in my view are responsible for creating his brand of reactionism) don't get dissected and called out in this manner, not in mainstream discourse. The Alt-Right is socially unacceptable, the SJW left is not. That's a major, major difference which in my view makes all the difference in terms of which is the more dangerous movement.

I'm at a loss as to who and where this extremist social justice activity presents itself. I'm well aware of the claims, but the substance is another thing.

Ferrari3600

SJW cucks PUA blah blah

Beta males blah blah

Cuckservatives, they are worse than the NAZI STALINISTS blah blah

ancapailldorcha

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

SJW cucks PUA blah blah

Beta males blah blah

Cuckservatives, they are worse than the NAZI STALINISTS blah blah

Less of this. Please read the charter before posting again.

hatrickpatrick

alastair wrote: »

I'm at a loss as to who and where this extremist social justice activity presents itself. I'm well aware of the claims, but the substance is another thing.

How about the emergence of articles in mainstream outlets such as the Irish Times, Examiner, Journal etc which suggest that all men should feel responsible for the minority of men who behave badly? How about the fact that anyone with even the slightest anti-immigration views is routinely labelled a racist, without question, and this is seen as a reasonable inference? How about the fact, as others have suggested here, that you couldn't be anti-gay marriage during the last referendum without being utterly reviled for it by the SJW left? And most dangerously at all, how about the fact that the SJW left engages in the creation of online hate mobs, just like the alt right, but are almost never banned or censored for this, unlike the alt right?

I'm fairly far left myself, I'm just anti-regressive politics regardless of who it comes from. But it does seem to me that appalling behaviour from my own side of the political aisle is tolerated to a far greater extent in mainstream society and media compared with appalling behaviour from those on the far right.

alastair

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How about the emergence of articles in mainstream outlets such as the Irish Times, Examiner, Journal etc which suggest that all men should feel responsible for the minority of men who behave badly? How about the fact that anyone with even the slightest anti-immigration views is routinely labelled a racist, without question, and this is seen as a reasonable inference? How about the fact, as others have suggested here, that you couldn't be anti-gay marriage during the last referendum without being utterly reviled for it by the SJW left? And most dangerously at all, how about the fact that the SJW left engages in the creation of online hate mobs, just like the alt right, but are almost never banned or censored for this, unlike the alt right?

I'm fairly far left myself, I'm just anti-regressive politics regardless of who it comes from. But it does seem to me that appalling behaviour from my own side of the political aisle is tolerated to a far greater extent in mainstream society and media compared with appalling behaviour from those on the far right.

I've no recollection of any such articles. Care to link to some?
These hate mobs? Again - where's the evidence of this?

Lots of rhetoric, but notable lack of substance.

Let's see the substance.

InTheTrees

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

SJW cucks PUA blah blah

Beta males blah blah

Cuckservatives, they are worse than the NAZI STALINISTS blah blah

As far as I can tell if you try and pin them down on any actual policys they get confused.

It's all about teen cliques and labels.

hatrickpatrick

alastair wrote: »

I've no recollection of any such articles. Care to link to some?
These hate mobs? Again - where's the evidence of this?

Lots of rhetoric, but notable lack of substance.

Let's see the substance.

I'll compile a list for you tonight when I'm home. I'm sure I have some of them bookmarked. One example off the top of my head, which I will search for a link to, was an article in either the Journal or Telegraph by a woman who suggested that ordinary, decent men should still feel a stab of shame or discomfort because of what other men do, just because they're also men. Reverse the genders and neither publication would have touched the article with a ten foot barge pole. As soon as I find it, I will link to it here.

Here's a more tangible one. Remember that guy who was instrumental in landing a satellite on an asteroid for the first time? Well, an internet hate mob of SJWs managed to turn the focus of that story away from the massive achievement and onto the fact that he was wearing a sexually explicit t-shirt in the office, and how this was somehow evidence of him devaluing all women to sex objects, or some such equally BS logic. As a result of the furore whipped up by the aforementioned internet mob, instead of getting to celebrate his big achievement, he had to apologise, on the brink of tears, on TV for being "offensive".

This is the kind of sh!te that is tolerated from the left, and it absolutely disgusts me and furthermore infuriates me that as a self-styled liberal, my political alignment is now intractably associated with these morons.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress

EDIT: The aftermath http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2834451/Philae-comet-probe-scientist-embroiled-sexism-row-shirt-featuring-scantily-clad-women.html

alastair

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'll compile a list for you tonight when I'm home. I'm sure I have some of them bookmarked. One example off the top of my head, which I will search for a link to, was an article in either the Journal or Telegraph by a woman who suggested that ordinary, decent men should still feel a stab of shame or discomfort because of what other men do, just because they're also men. Reverse the genders and neither publication would have touched the article with a ten foot barge pole. As soon as I find it, I will link to it here.

Here's a more tangible one. Remember that guy who was instrumental in landing a satellite on an asteroid for the first time? Well, an internet hate mob of SJWs managed to turn the focus of that story away from the massive achievement and onto the fact that he was wearing a sexually explicit t-shirt in the office, and how this was somehow evidence of him devaluing all women to sex objects, or some such equally BS logic. As a result of the furore whipped up by the aforementioned internet mob, instead of getting to celebrate his big achievement, he had to apologise, on the brink of tears, on TV for being "offensive".

This is the kind of sh!te that is tolerated from the left, and it absolutely disgusts me and furthermore infuriates me that as a self-styled liberal, my political alignment is now intractably associated with these morons.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress

Dare I suggest that the whole shirt business was; A. Nothing like you describe, in that it neither turned the focus from the core story, and B. Wasn't presented as evidence of him devaluing all women as sexual objects. Given that he was working amongst female colleagues at the time, it was fairly obvious he must have come to terms with gender equality in his field. It was raised as a totem of sexism in the scientific community, but that argument really didn't gain any traction. The shirt was clearly considered inappropriate by many who wouldn't be remotely considered 'SJW's, seemingly forgetting that sartorial decision-making and scientists have never been great bedfellows. But mainly; C. This isn't remotely in the equivalence territory. It's a silly season story, with a frigging shirt at it's centre.

I'm going to suggest a thesis here. This notion that offensive trolling from idiotic reactionaries is the inevitable mirror of the same kind of thing from idiotic trolling progressives, is just the sort of self-defeating introspective hand-wringing from progressives, that cynical reactionaries will delight in summoning up. There's actually very little truth to it at all. Just as there's very little truth in the notion that Trump's win in the elections is down to failings on the progressive narrative in politics. They're both a crock.

Brian?

alastair wrote: »

Dare I suggest that the whole shirt business was; A. Nothing like you describe, in that it neither turned the focus from the core story, and B. Wasn't presented as evidence of him devaluing all women as sexual objects. Given that he was working amongst female colleagues at the time, it was fairly obvious he must have come to terms with gender equality in his field. It was raised as a totem of sexism in the scientific community, but that argument really didn't gain any traction. The shirt was clearly considered inappropriate by many who wouldn't be remotely considered 'SJW's, seemingly forgetting that sartorial decision-making and scientists have never been great bedfellows. But mainly; C. This isn't remotely in the equivalence territory. It's a silly season story, with a frigging shirt at it's centre.

I'm going to suggest a thesis here. This notion that offensive trolling from idiotic reactionaries is the inevitable mirror of the same kind of thing from idiotic trolling progressives, is just the sort of self-defeating introspective hand-wringing from progressives, that cynical reactionaries will delight in summoning up. There's actually very little truth to it at all. Just as there's very little truth in the notion that Trump's win in the elections is down to failings on the progressive narrative in politics. They're both a crock.

I couldn't agree more.

Who is the left wing equivalent of Milo? He's a reaction to a myth that doesn't exist. Social justice warrior is a throw away term used to stifle any debate. Many people on the alt right wholeheartedly embrace name calling. They love to use terms like social justice warriors, snowflakes or feminazis to describe people who simply want a more tolerant and equal society.

hatrickpatrick

Brian? wrote: »

I couldn't agree more.

Who is the left wing equivalent of Milo? He's a reaction to a myth that doesn't exist. Social justice warrior is a throw away term used to stifle any debate. Many people on the alt right wholeheartedly embrace name calling. They love to use terms like social justice warriors, snowflakes or feminazis to describe people who simply want a more tolerant and equal society.

Except apparently, tolerant of people wearing whatever the f*ck they want to wear.

Or singers singing whatever the f*ck they want to sing. (http://madamenoire.com/406804/robin-thicke-concert/)

Or video game developers writing however the f*ck they want to write. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian)

Or fathers' rights activists giving lectures about fathers' rights activism. (http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/2014/04/10/protesters-shut-down-u-of-o-professors-mens-rights-talk.html)

Or people being allowed to hold individual opinions on whether a crude joke is funny or not without being fired. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/hydro-one-employee-fired-after-fhritp-heckling-of-citynews-reporter-shauna-hunt-1.3070948) - note, he didn't make the joke but merely defended it

Or going out of your way to get two people sitting nearby fired for making a crude joke to eachother, which wasn't even a sexist joke to begin with (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-got-two-people-fired-and-led-to-ddos-attacks/)

Need any more?

I'm all for the right to protest and the right to criticise. I draw the line at asking for people's lives to be ruined over the words they speak, or actively trying to prevent a talk or event from taking place at all because you don't like the content of it. That's what I mean by "regressive left". When I was growing up, being tolerant included tolerating all speech - disagreeing with it, criticising it, but nonetheless tolerating it. The idea of retaliating with anything other than counter-argument is, to me, authoritarian - the very antithesis of liberal. You cannot call yourself a liberal and believe that it's ok for somebody to get fired for expressing an opinion, or that DJs shouldn't play a particular song because some people don't like its lyrics. That's not liberal, that's demanding conformity from all of society for one sub-group's likes and dislikes. That's what SJW means, and that in my view is that the cultural libertarians like Milo and his ilk are rebelling against.

All of the examples I have given here are relatively trivial compared to the very real fact that you cannot be anti-immigration anymore without being considered a racist and attacked as such, that one couldn't be anti gay marriage in the recent campaign without being harassed and branded a monster, etc.

And most ridiculously of all I feel compelled to once again point out that I actually agree with the left wing position on most of this speech. Blurred Lines is a vile song. Race in my view is a relic of the past. I not only voted for gay marriage but campaigned heavily for it among my peers. I have no time for sexism of any kind and directed against anybody. Same for racism.

But, the point is, I accept that in a liberal, culturally free society, I, one person, do not have any moral, ethical or legal right to impose my views on what other people are or are not allowed to do. That one's speech is a sacrosanct thing which no amount of majority opposition should be able to shut down. That each individual should have autonomy on what they write, what they sing, etc - that the majority do not get to determine that what they view as "tasteless" is actually "not allowed".

Before anyone attacks my views, I'm honestly curious as to how anyone can separate censorship by the mob on ideological grounds from censorship by the mob on, say, sectarian grounds. I highly doubt many of you would regard Catholics protesting a monty python film and petitioning for it to be removed from all cinemas as "liberal" - they'd be regarded, rightly, as authoritarian, which is the opposite of liberal. So how is it that people requesting self and corporate censorship on the grounds of political ideology get a free pass? They are as insidious and as unethical as any other form of mob "justice".

alastair

I take it these links were cut and paste from some Canadian site, previously discussing this supposed trend? Because there's an awful lot of dead links. Not too sure how you can claim that these inform your views, if you can't actually read them?

However - taking your word that you believe these instances to be trivial (except the sexual abuse of the TV reporter is straightforwardly wrong, and the guy fired must have had some conduct clause in his employment contract to warrant firing. No sympathy for him.), you're still not supporting this contention of 'hate mobs', of blanket equating immigration concerns with racism, and of the demonisation of any dissenting views in the marriage equality referendum.

InTheTrees

The impression i'm getting of the "alt right" is that the only topic they have any opinion on at all is how badly men are treated by women??

So the alt right is just about sexism?

Thy dont seem to comment on anything else.

InTheTrees

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Need any more?

Yes. Besides gender issues what other platforms do the "alt right" take a stand on?

oscarBravo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Or video game developers writing however the f*ck they want to write. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian)

I think you've badly undermined your entire thesis by including this as part of it.

In response to her creation of a YouTube series on "Tropes vs Women in Video Games", she was subjected to a tidal wave of online harassment, including rape and death threats.

That, for me, sums up the difference between "SJWs" and the alt-right. A woman suggests that maybe we should look carefully at how female characters are presented in video games; in response she's threatened - on an epic scale - with rape and murder.

The idea that the alt-right is an inevitable backlash to the "SJW" movement is a textbook example of lazy equivalence.



With apologies to the mods, I thought this was well-timed:

Phoebas

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Need any more?

I don't know if its just me, but none of those links worked.

More than likely someone trying to supresses you.

Skylinehead

Phoebas wrote: »

I don't know if its just me, but none of those links worked.

More than likely someone trying to supresses you.

It's the bracket at the end of each URL causing it.

Tony EH

20Cent wrote: »

So the alt right Queen Milo interviewed on Channel 4 News. There is the usual shouting talking over and rude behavior from him. It does highlight a large issue with the alt right.

That is can one be provocative/satirical/mischievous or serious but not both.

They also have their own definitions of issues ie what feminism is.
One interesting thing is how he says they want to be fact based and post truth.

You can actually see the moment milo realises he's been shown to be full of it at about 4.50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJiNeCBpCHQ

So, not only is this mouthy article gay, he's also a Jew? :rolleyes:

I'd like to take this noisy clown and put him in a time machine, send him back to 1944 and ship him off to a small place in Poland. Not only wouldn't it take long before he's in a ensamble consisting of stripey rags with a pink triangle and a yellow star sown on them, he would renounce his beloved right wing quicker than you could say the words "gas" and "chamber".

Talentless hacks like this guy are actually quite dangerous IMO. They play a disingenuous game riling up people's (in some cases legitimate) grievances for their own gain and not caring about the fallout. They are content with the money in their pocket.

He bangs on about so-called SJW's, while ignoring the work of previous social justice campaigners who fought for gay rights and against anti-semitism in the past century. It was his beloved right wing that was instrumental in suppressing those rights and the left wing he disparages so often that were tireless in their support for them in a climate when it wasn't popular to be so inclined and Milo wouldn't be sitting where he is today if it wasn't for the left wing he so despises.

The more I hear from this guy, the more I'm sickened by the little twat. A deeply, deeply, unplesant individual that represents everything wrong about some parts of the political spectrum operating today.

RDM_83 again

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think you've badly undermined your entire thesis by including this as part of it.

In response to her creation of a YouTube series on "Tropes vs Women in Video Games", she was subjected to a tidal wave of online harassment, including rape and death threats.

That, for me, sums up the difference between "SJWs" and the alt-right. A woman suggests that maybe we should look carefully at how female characters are presented in video games; in response she's threatened - on an epic scale - with rape and murder.

The idea that the alt-right is an inevitable backlash to the "SJW" movement is a textbook example of lazy equivalence.

There is plenty of examples of the SJW left doing stuff thats just as nasty.
Online example of abuse- SRS ("progressive" sub-reddit that was influential but is thankfully less so now) users commenting on a thread where a mens rights user is contemplating suicide telling him to do it.

Real world examples.

Old one but remember while the label of SJW is new this type of activism has been around for a long time - Erin Pizzey - founder of one of the first domestic abuse shelters - received - death threats and other actions because she believed women are involved in large percentage of domestic and child abuse ended up having to have the bomb squad open her male - her dogs were also killed (but this may have been by pedo's).

I've not time for the Pegeda people but when they organized a march in Dublin they were met with a high level of physical mob violence which they had not initiated, this can be seen on various youtube videos and there was Facebook posts about attacking them.

Tim Hunt - Out of context quotes by a single habitual liar result in a esteemed scientist having his reputation tarnished and forced to resign from various positions, this may be waved away as a single isolated but I know at least one researcher personally that the affair made hesitant about any public engagement in relation to UCL stuff as it made clear that the university would not defend them.

Bahar Mustafa - Goldsmith (london) student union officer makes numerous offensive statements about men and in protests prevents disabled from accessing services. Gets to keep job and retains support of the University of London student union. Used to live quiet close to Goldsmith for a while and there was a lot of SJW types (they might not be common in most of Ireland but they very much exist in the wild depending on your location). I am including this as a real world example as she was in a role where she was meant to be providing support to all of the student body that need help - including white males a group she vilified.

Currently there is a debate going on in University of Toronto relating to a professors views on potentially being legally required to use a persons preferred Zhe etc). This another Professors response.
http://imgur.com/a/2Uj02
http://imgur.com/a/Rdefj
Including this as a real world example as because remember the above professor is going to be teaching white cisgendered males from a variety of political positions, do you think they will get fair treatment in their class?

While trying to get a debate relating to Mens Issues such as high suicide and incarceration rates in the Houses of Parliment on international mens day, MP Philip Davies was laughed at by MP Jess Philips. Thankfully the debate happened this year (probably due to a public backlash against Jess Philips response) however he was accused of Mansplaining.

The current Shadow Home Secretary in Diana Abbot. Quotes of hers include
'White people love playing divide and rule’
"blonde, blue-eyed Finnish girls" were unsuitable as nurses because they had "never met a black person before"

(ironically Jess Philips and Abbot hate each others guts )

Anyway these are ones I can think of without googling (had to google the quotes though).

It is sufficient to say SJW do have an impact in the real world, particularly if one is a young person in the high education environment, there is a reason why a lot of this backlash is driven by the under 35's.

Chips Lovell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Still does AFAIK. He's Breitbart's technology editor unless he recently left.

I'm assuming Bannon has left now to work for Trump though?

SterlingArcher

oscarBravo wrote: »

The idea that the alt-right is an inevitable backlash to the "SJW" movement is a textbook example of lazy equivalence.



With apologies to the mods, I thought this was well-timed:

In my completely un biased view.

As equally textbook lazy as suggesting anyone alt right is a nazi and must want to murder all Jews.

does Nazi now for some reason cover any resistance to immigration no matter how reasonable or ideas deemed not good for a like on Facebook. It's that exact lazy scoffing label tatic you employed that is on trial In politics and being hanged.

You're right.it was not sjws. It's just everyone who thinks different is an ignorant, bigot (irony) murderer.

Hey don't disagree or you will be labelled the equivalent- on an epic scale- of murder and genocide. seems you got more in common with the alt right than you think....

Foxtrot Oscar.

ancapailldorcha

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I'm assuming Bannon has left now to work for Trump though?

I would think so. I was referring to Yiannopolous.

Rjd2

So one of the main alt right people Richard b Spencer had a rally this week and well its pretty grim reading.:(

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html

K-9

Rjd2 wrote: »

So one of the main alt right people Richard b Spencer had a rally this week and well its pretty grim reading.:(

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html

NYT, MSM etc.

Seriously, that only 200 stayed for the Nazi fun and games at the end tells a lot, that they think Trump represents them is the worry, silent majority and all that nonsense.

midnight city

Tony EH wrote: »

So, not only is this mouthy article gay, he's also a Jew? :rolleyes:

I'd like to take this noisy clown and put him in a time machine, send him back to 1944 and ship him off to a small place in Poland. Not only wouldn't it take long before he's in a ensamble consisting of stripey rags with a pink triangle and a yellow star sown on them, he would renounce his beloved right wing quicker than you could say the words "gas" and "chamber".

Talentless hacks like this guy are actually quite dangerous IMO. They play a disingenuous game riling up people's (in some cases legitimate) grievances for their own gain and not caring about the fallout. They are content with the money in their pocket.

He bangs on about so-called SJW's, while ignoring the work of previous social justice campaigners who fought for gay rights and against anti-semitism in the past century. It was his beloved right wing that was instrumental in suppressing those rights and the left wing he disparages so often that were tireless in their support for them in a climate when it wasn't popular to be so inclined and Milo wouldn't be sitting where he is today if it wasn't for the left wing he so despises.

The more I hear from this guy, the more I'm sickened by the little twat. A deeply, deeply, unplesant individual that represents everything wrong about some parts of the political spectrum operating today.

Milo is a creation of the liberal left, someone like him was bound to come out fighting after years and years of the extreme end of feminism attacking men and other sjw's attacking white people. It was only a matter of time before someone emerged to fight back. He is the opposite extreme and he has an audience. There are more and more like him emerging all the time too.