President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

demfad

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, two thoughts.

First, it's not the "die-hard Trump supporters" they need to convince on this. If Jeff Sessions lied here, he lied to Congress. He lied about meeting the Russian ambassador while he was a senior member of the Trump campaign. And Jeff Sessions is the man in charge of the investigation into Russian involvement in the election - an investigation which is being conducted to satisfy Congress. So the question comes down to this; will Congress now be satisfied with an investigation presided over by Jeff Sessions? Flynn had to go because he lied to the Vice-President about this. If Congress take the view that Sessions lied to them about this, he's toast. The views of "diehard Trump supporters" won't come into it.

And the second thought: Yes, all these allegations regarding ties to Russia may end up being nothing. Maybe it's all perfectly innocent, nothing to worry about. But why do they lie about it? Every. F@cking. Time?

On edit: several senior Democrats in Congress have already called on Sessions to resign. That, of course, is entirely predictable. The reactions to watch for are those of the Republicans in Congress.

Sessions seems to have changed his story a few times on this in the last half day: From didn't happen, to vague recollection, to superficial meeting and now to current line.
Remember he has stayed silent about this through the Flynn affair and he let POTUS say 'to his knowledge' no-one in his campaign has any contact with Russians.
Sergey Kislyak, the Russian ambassador is widely believed to be a spy and the main Russian spy-recruiter in the US.
Inspite of all of this, as you say, it will come down to if congress "believed" he lied to them. Democrats and media must focus on this initially.

Zubeneschamali

Quin_Dub wrote: »

However as another poster said , his response to the question during his confirmation hearings was "Jesuitical" to say the least.

The question was: "If there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian Government during this campaign, what will you do?".

If he had answered "In my capacity as an adviser to the Trump campaign, I did not have communications with the Russians" he could argue about the meaning of the word "is".

But he didn't.

He said "I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I did not have communications with the Russians."

He is suggesting that he was not really a surrogate for the campaign despite being called that, AND he did not have communication with the Russians.

He cannot now say he meant "I was not really a surrogate, and as a surrogate, I did not have communications", it makes no sense.

It's a straight up lie under oath.

demfad

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Granted it's from Fox News, but they are quoting the Justice department as saying the following..



If that is true then neither meeting would appear to have offered Sessions any real opportunity for nefarious activities...

However as another poster said , his response to the question during his confirmation hearings was "Jesuitical" to say the least.

Fundamentally , if there's nothing to hide why all the obfuscation about the interactions between Trump and his extended team with the Russians?

CNN have contacted 19 out of the 26 members of that committee. Not one of them has met routinely or otherwise with Kyslyak.

InTheTrees

demfad wrote: »

CNN have contacted 19 out of the 26 members of that committee. Not one of them has met routinely or otherwise with Kyslyak.

And none of them knew why sessions would have needed to meet the Russian in their capacity as armed services committee members.

demfad

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/us/politics/obama-trump-russia-election-hacking.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Some Obama White House officials had little faith that a Trump administration would make good on such pledges, and the efforts to preserve the intelligence continued until the administration’s final hours. This was partly because intelligence was still being collected and analyzed, but it also reflected the sentiment among many administration officials that they had not recognized the scale of the Russian campaign until it was too late.

The warning signs had been building throughout the summer, but were far from clear. As WikiLeaks was pushing out emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee through online publication, American intelligence began picking up conversations in which Russian officials were discussing contacts with Trump associates, and European allies were starting to pass along information about people close to Mr. Trump meeting with Russians in the Netherlands, Britain and other countries.

But what was going on in the meetings was unclear to the officials, and the intercepted communications did little to clarify matters — the Russians, it appeared, were arguing about how far to go in interfering in the presidential election. What intensified the alarm at the Obama White House was a campaign of cyberattacks on state electoral systems in September, which led the administration to deliver a public accusation against the Russians in October.

But it wasn’t until after the election, and after more intelligence had come in, that the administration began to grasp the scope of the suspected tampering and concluded that one goal of the campaign was to help tip the election in Mr. Trump’s favor. In early December, Mr. Obama ordered the intelligence community to conduct a full assessment of the Russian campaign.

InTheTrees

Now there's questions emerging about WIlbur Ross, the new Commerce Secretary, who it turns out has been vice chairman of the "Bank Of Cyprus", which for years has been a thinly veiled russian mob bank.

"The White House has been accused of withholding information from Congress about whether Donald Trump or any of his campaign affiliates have ever received loans from a bank in Cyprus that is partly owned by a close ally of Russian president Vladimir Putin."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/27/commerce-nominee-wilbur-ross-bank-of-cyprus-putin

Professor Moriarty

Sessions is the thread that the 'fake news' media and the Democrats will pick at. All the people that The Donald went out of his way to piss off. If Demfad's very informative posts are correct, this will eventually expose Trump. Revenge is best served with a steak knife.

conditioned games

What I would like to know is why are the Americans, British and the controlled mainstream media attacking Russia non stop for the last 6 years. Are they preparing us for war with Russia?

Whether it is Republicans or Democratics both are controlled by their masters to spread fear and hate about Russia. They have yet to provide evidence for their made up story of Russia hacking and leaking information on the Democratic party. Wikileaks have already stated their information didn't come from Russia while Seth Richs who worked for the Clinton camp and provided information to Wikileaks was killed.

The American establishment and the controlled mainstream media corporations have an unhealthy attitude towards Russia but they appear to still have a large captive audience that will believe whatever they are told.

Harika

conditioned games wrote: »

What I would like to know is why are the Americans, British and the controlled mainstream media attacking Russia non stop for the last 6 years. Are they preparing us for war with Russia?

What was Russia attacked for that was not justified by their actions?

Professor Moriarty

conditioned games wrote: »

What I would like to know is why are the Americans, British and the controlled mainstream media attacking Russia non stop for the last 6 years. Are they preparing us for war with Russia?

Whether it is Republicans or Democratics both are controlled by their masters to spread fear and hate about Russia. They have yet to provide evidence for their made up story of Russia hacking and leaking information on the Democratic party. Wikileaks have already stated their information didn't come from Russia while Seth Richs who worked for the Clinton camp and provided information to Wikileaks was killed.

The American establishment and the controlled mainstream media corporations have an unhealthy attitude towards Russia but they appear to still have a large captive audience that will believe whatever they are told.

All of the US intelligence agencies have confirmed that "Russia hacked the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and leaked its documents to WikiLeaks."

As asserted by an American politician, you are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.

seamus

Harika wrote: »

What was Russia attacked for that was not justified by their actions?

This is the thing. "You're saying bad things about us! You're biased and have an agenda!"

"But it's all true"

"That doesn't matter, why don't you say nice things about us?!"

Mr.Micro

InTheTrees wrote: »

Now there's questions emerging about WIlbur Ross, the new Commerce Secretary, who it turns out has been vice chairman of the "Bank Of Cyprus", which for years has been a thinly veiled russian mob bank.

"The White House has been accused of withholding information from Congress about whether Donald Trump or any of his campaign affiliates have ever received loans from a bank in Cyprus that is partly owned by a close ally of Russian president Vladimir Putin."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/27/commerce-nominee-wilbur-ross-bank-of-cyprus-putin

Trump and Bannon better make up and be friends with the FBI and CIA, otherwise IMO they will keep dishing the dirt, be it political, business or sordid and cause the dynamic duo lots of embarrassments.

conditioned games

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

US intelligence agencies[/URL] have confirmed that "Russia hacked the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and leaked its documents to WikiLeaks."

As asserted by an American politician, you are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.

Yes "US Intelligence". It has to be true so...? Not like them to repeatedly tell lies throughout history

Water John

There are too many interactions between Trump associates and the Russians for coincidence to explain it.

It should have a fully independent investigation. If there is nothing wrong, we'll know in 6 months.
On the other hand would not all Americans want the truth, no matter which way I would have voted in the PE.

Chips Lovell

That Russian cyberattacks occurred is beyond dispute at this stage. The FBI, Homeland Security, the media, multiple private information security companies, even president Trump, are all in agreement on that.

I think the only thing that's up for debate at this stage is what, if any, impact they had.

Water John

Yes, we accept that as read ATP. The key question is, were Trump's people in contact with Russia? Second question is what for?
If the answer to the first question is yes, then that is illegal. One of the reasons to keep denying it.


Second question then, will be a bigger can of worms.

Zubeneschamali

Water John wrote: »

Yes, we accept that as read ATP. The key question is, were Trump's people in contact with Russia?

Yes, Flynn was, and he lied about it, and he had to resign for lying about it.

Sessions was, and he lied about under oath, which is a crime. As Attorney General, he must now prosecute himself.

Apparently EU intelligence have evidence of more than one Trump staffer in contact with the Russians in Europe.

Chips Lovell

The contacts issues is beginning to get a Watergate feel to it. Steady drip of revelations slowly corroding an administration.

demfad

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The contacts issues is beginning to get a Watergate feel to it. Steady drip of revelations slowly corroding an administration.

Watergate x 1000

That is why they fear a big 9/11 style independent investigation.
The Republican party could be destroyed here.

InTheTrees

There's a story in todays new York times (can't link I'm using my phone) about the effort's the outgoing Obama team went to to ensure It's information on Russian involvement couldn't be buried by the incoming administration.
They made sure as much as possible was copied to as many different agencies as they could.

Zubeneschamali

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The contacts issues is beginning to get a Watergate feel to it. Steady drip of revelations slowly corroding an administration.

Yes - Sessions would have been fine if he had told the truth at his confirmation. It may be odd to meet the Russian ambassador, but not illegal.

Lying about it under oath is illegal, and annoys Congress (even the Republicans who don't want to get this all over them).

The fact that he risked lying about it suggests there is something really big behind this - he would not break the law if it was trivial.

Leroy42

Totally agree Zubeneschamali. As one pro GOP (her words) stated on CNN, it is not the meeting with the ambassador that is the issue, its the fact that he lied about it.

It was a pretty straight forward question, a lawyer with his experience knew exactly what he was being asked and how he answered it.

Team Trump can try to twist this anyway they like but the key point is that regardless or what he talked about in these meetings he lied, under oath, to the senate. Perjury.

An AG who has been found to have perjured himself? Not sure even Trump can carry that one

Chips Lovell

demfad wrote: »

The Republican party could be destroyed here.

I find it hard to see that happening. Trump has always had a fractious, semi-detachment relationship with the Republicans. If the worst case scenario comes to pass and the entire administration goes under, they'll wash their hands of him and paint them as a rogue element.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes - Sessions would have been fine if he had told the truth at his confirmation. It may be odd to meet the Russian ambassador, but not illegal..

As Oliver Stone's Nixon said, "It's the lie that gets you".

demfad

Water John wrote: »

Yes, we accept that as read ATP. The key question is, were Trump's people in contact with Russia? Second question is what for?
If the answer to the first question is yes, then that is illegal. One of the reasons to keep denying it.


Second question then, will be a bigger can of worms.

Flynn, Manafort, Sessions, Page, Cohen, Don Jr (I'm missing a few) confirmed met with Russian Officials during the election so far.

This is Carter Page Foreign advisor on Trumps who met with the head of Rosneft, Igor Sechin, last September and more importantly met with this guy:

U.S. intelligence agencies have also received reports that Page met with another top Putin aide while in Moscow — Igor Diveykin. A former Russian security official, Diveykin now serves as deputy chief for internal policy and is believed by U.S. officials to have responsibility for intelligence collected by Russian agencies about the U.S. election, the Western intelligence source said.

Igor Diveykin is literally the man who planned and hacked the US election.

This is what page was doing meeting: From HERE

Guess who brought Carter Page into the Trump campaign? Jeff Sessions.

demfad

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I find it hard to see that happening. Trump has always had a fractious, semi-detachment relationship with the Republicans. If the worst case scenario comes to pass and the entire administration goes under, they'll wash their hands of him and paint them as a rogue element.

The worst case scenario is several trials for treason and more than a few murder cases. If this happens every facet of Trumps life will be investigated, every tentacle and that will hurt anyone with a connection to him. If Trump was blackmailing anyone in the GOP party that will come out also.
If the GOP leadership had discussed the idea that Trump might be a Russian agent of influence, that will come out. Trumps history money laundering with Oligarchs and Criminals will come out, 40 years of it. His Modeling agency, crimes with young girls, anyone in that group...finished...

The oligarchs that used Trumps businesses as money laundering fronts all reported to Criminal world boss of bosses Semion Mogilevich (Putin pal). He is into corporate fraud, and every type of criminality you can think of. Most of his underbosses have lived in Trump tower at some point.

Dmitri Firtash who paid ex Trump CM Manafort to get Putin Puppet Yanukovitz elected in Moscow is connected with Mogilevich.
Firtash (who Austria granted extradition to the US last week) is also connected to him. Firtash is also connected to the parent company of Cambridge Analytica the worlds dodgiest AI election manipulation machine involved in US election and Brexit.
CA is Controlled by Robert and Rebekah Mercer. Who funded Donald Trumps election win. They also own Breitbart. And they control Bannon, Conway, Sessions. Sessions, who brought Carter Page into the Trump team
Bannon/Conway also in Religious Statist Council for National Policy. Who endorsed Mercer candidates (Cruz) and then Trump. Who have scores of people deep in teh new administration. Rebekah Mercer was in charge of Transition she picked them
CNP have deep ties with Russian RW religious groups through the World Congress of Families. Which is controlled by RW oligarch Malofeel, who is owned by Putin. Many of the CNP are in the NRA. Many of the corresponding Russians are in the corresponding gun group the 'right to bear arms'.

Cambridge analytica had to subcontract paid trolls to troll for TRump as part of its over all propaganda and analtyical network. This was subcontarcted to the St Petersburg trolls. There's more....lots..and all will be sifted through..
100s will go down
And yes, there has been 9 deaths of Russian diplomats since last October. Heart attacks and head injuries. One member of the DNC was murdered.
2nd in command in Rosneft, murdered (Source in Steele dossier?).
4 top Russian spies arrested for treason in Moscow after Obama sanctions. One of them (vice head, Cyber Ops) removed from a meeting with a bag over his head, missing presumed dead.

Instead of a can of worms think of a St James gate VAT of vipers.

As Oliver Stone's Nixon said, "It's the lie that gets you".

That will prove true.

Zubeneschamali

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

If the worst case scenario comes to pass and the entire administration goes under, they'll wash their hands of him and paint them as a rogue element.

Agreed - they backed other candidates in the Primaries, they only grudgingly accepted Trump as the party candidate, they'll all have plenty of statements they can point to and say they disliked him first.

Chips Lovell

Woah. That's a lot of stuff there and not all of it relevant to the matter at hand. By worst case scenario I meant Trump himself being implicated in the illegal contacts with Russia or so many of his people that the entire administration collapses and he resigns.

Professor Moriarty

InTheTrees wrote:

There's a story in todays new York times (can't link I'm using my phone) about the effort's the outgoing Obama team went to to ensure It's information on Russian involvement couldn't be buried by the incoming administration. They made sure as much as possible was copied to as many different agencies as they could.

I read that article earlier. It hints at much more to come.

Igotadose

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I read that article earlier. It hints at much more to come.

Speaking as someone that was in high school in the US (2dary school here) during Watergate, I was very interested in seeing this commentary from John W. Dean, architect of the Watergate coverup: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/richard-nixon-lawyer-john-dean-donald-trump-russia-jeff-sessions-cover-up-watergate-scandal-a7607026.html

It was front and center of all discussions in history and ethics classes for months.


Summary (quote from Dean): ""Hey Donald, a tip," he wrote on Twitter. "Cover-ups don't get easier as they proceed."

I still can remember that little weasel testifying before Congress and Sirica as the investigation played out. I wonder if Flynn'll be the one to sing for immunity like Dean.

MadYaker

Trump supporters reactions to this stuff is always interesting. This time they seem to be totally missing the point here. The problem isn't necessarily his contact with Russians during the campaign (although that is unusual) the problem is that he lied about it. I don't get it. If I was an American voter regardless of who I voted for I would want to know the truth behind what is going on here. Sessions obviously lied for a reason. Yet most Trump supporters just don't seem to care.