Tipp off track?

JMT2016

So there's a new push to close the ballybrophy line and the waterford-limerick jcn line.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/this-is-totally-unacceptable-its-madness-alan-kelly-lashes-out-at-calls-to-close-railway-line-that-carries-73-passengers-a-day-35216990.html

This means that 9 tipp railway stations will close as they are uneconomical according to the report.

Is this a burning issue for you? Have you used the trains before.

I never have, i'd rather a proper n24 road instead!

JMT2016

Alan Kelly was on prime time there.

Two arguments
1."Build it and they will come" and
2. the need to balance rural and urban services.

Now if the government aren't interested in both these arguments for life saving emergency heart attack healthcare already at capacity for South tipp and south east I can't see them biting for the ghost trains.

I think the best Alan can bargain for is improved roads for the replacement bus service, these closures look inevitable.

JMT2016

Deedsie wrote: »

Gutted it's closing, rail line from Nenagh to Limerick should be upgraded. The numbers commuting to Limerick every day make it fairly obvious that the line would be used if it wasn't so ridiculously slow.

As one of the largest towns in the Midwest region Nenagh should have a rail link into the Midwest regions capital city.

Upgrade it and watch the numbers of passangers increase as the journey times improve.

Terrible that it's closing.

I've seen the phrase "defunding" used, it's true though.

Two stages, first limit the existing service to make it below par and unused and then use this to do away with the service altogether.

Mantis Toboggan

What's the current journey time into Limerick?

JMT2016

Tyson Fury wrote: »

What's the current journey time into Limerick?

On which line? The ballybrophy line or the waterford one?

Edit: deedsie gave you the ballybrophy ones.

Its on average 2,5 hours on the waterford line depending on the stopover in limerick jcn.

JMT2016

Deedsie wrote: »

I mean how can they expect people to use the Ballybrophy Nenagh line if it takes an hour to get into Limerick? You would drive it in about 20-25 minutes.

Isn't there a similar problem with the limerick galway line. It's so unbelievably slow no one would use it.

Mantis Toboggan

As you said you can drive to Limerick from nenagh in 20 minutes so not sure why the rail network is needed.

Train to Limerick then you're truck in colbert station trying to get into town, much handier to drive, unfortunately train stations have just become places where you can get your car clamped.

Joe_ Public

Tyson Fury wrote: »

As you said you can drive to Limerick from nenagh in 20 minutes so not sure why the rail network is needed.

Train to Limerick then you're truck in colbert station trying to get into town, much handier to drive, unfortunately train stations have just become places where you can get your car clamped.

Stuck in Colbert Station? Its a 5 minute walk to O'Connell Street!

Not everybody drives, not everybody who can drive wants to drive. What's crazy is that there is no express route between Dublin and Limerick, the switch over at the Junction is cattle class stuff. Ideally there would be a serviceable link with the university.

I accept, though, that the cost factors need proper analysis. That was really rubbish television from RTE tonight, a shouty argument between a rural politician shouting for rural investment and the city politician shouting for the city, another depressing insight into the pork barrel politics that is destroying this country.

Mantis Toboggan

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Stuck in Colbert Station? Its a 5 minute walk to O'Connell Street!

Not everybody drives, not everybody who can drive wants to drive. What's crazy is that there is no express route between Dublin and Limerick, the switch over at the Junction is cattle class stuff. Ideally there would be a serviceable link with the university.

I accept, though, that the cost factors need proper analysis. That was really rubbish television from RTE tonight, a shouty argument between a rural politician shouting for rural investment and the city politician shouting for the city, another depressing insight into the pork barrel politics that is destroying this country.

Yeah that's grand if you're going to o'connell Street but not if you're going to the colleges, hospitals or cresent shopping centre.

I know some people don't drive but how do they get to the station in the first place? Also in Limerick will surely have to avail of more transport options further hitting congestion.

Would be great to have a good rail network but we don't, it's not viable and is it worth the investment?

Surely bus routes are the way to go, new motorway into the city which is mostly under utilised as is.

Joe_ Public

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Yeah that's grand if you're going to o'connell Street but not if you're going to the colleges, hospitals or cresent shopping centre.

I know some people don't drive but how do they get to the station in the first place? Also in Limerick will surely have to avail of more transport options further hitting congestion.

Would be great to have a good rail network but we don't, it's not viable and is it worth the investment?

Surely bus routes are the way to go, new motorway into the city which is mostly under utilised as is.

Well I suppose you can only put the station in one location, you can't drop everybody off where they want to go!

But here's the thing: I doubt anyone prefers buses to trains. A regular car driver will hardly ever be convinced to change his routine and start travelling by bus. Trains are - or should be - associated with comfort, speed and reliance of which the current Ballybrophy-Limerick line falls down on at least two main aspects. When it's not given a chance, then you get the expected results.

I think I'm right in saying Limerick has a chronic traffic problem. A woman I know travels to work everyday from Nenagh to the Killarney Road side of the city and makes better time than when she was doing the same journey from the opposite side of the city. That's crazy really, but not surprising. Yet here we are saying the new motorway is under-utilised, maybe we should be getting even more cars (or buses) in there! Surely we can do better than that?

Maybe it's too late to save it, I'm not an expert on rail networks and economic viability, so I can't really say. But the increasing urban/rural divide was clear in the last election and I believe this will only sharpen it further. Not life or death like hospitals or emergency services, perhaps, but it's still a service and will be missed by not being there, like POs and remote garda stations.

Joe_ Public

Deedsie wrote: »

It is probably too late to save it. However, symbolically allowing the Nenagh line to close is an admission of giving up on this part of rural Ireland.

Alan Kelly gets a lot of heat from people, the fact that he managed to keep this line going through the recession is an achievement. Its a shame he is not in power when there was actual money to invest in upgrading the line.

Perhaps, but then again the cynic in me can't help thinking that Kelly will be alright Jack whatever happens. He has his cause. He'll fight for it as long as it's relevant and then, come election time, he'll remind his voters that he was the one fighting for them against the big city slickers who want nothing better than to grind rural Ireland into the dust.

And yet this was the politician who became the public face of the chronic, disastrous waste that is Irish Water - more was frittered away on consultancy fees for that body than is now needed to meet Irish Rail's shortfall in funding for the next few years - and a prominent member of the last cabinet under which rural communities were further degraded and alienated. If it ever transpired that he became Labour leader and tanaiste, there's no doubt North Tipp would become awash with money, that's just how the system works.

Yeboah

trains need to run at times where people can get to work also, the Waterford to limerick line does not do this unless you start work in Limerick at 10 am.

Joe_ Public

Deedsie wrote: »

Yes, he does not get the thanks for it but he did bring money (during a recession) and potential jobs to Nenagh (First Data & Hydro)

So to me he does deserve gratitude from the people of Nenagh which he doesn't seem to be getting. €18 million invested in Nenagh on Bord Gais, Water pipes and sewerage pipes being installed & upgraded. Alan Kelly pushed for that investment.

Single biggest investment in the town ever.

I dont know how any minister could justify investing heavily in the Nenagh rail line while there are so many more urgent projects throughout the country. However, gradual improvement overtime would make the line viable.

Well they did re-elect him in fairness and at a time when his party was getting it in the neck around the country and he himself was being predicted as one of those in trouble. What more thanks than that does he need?

I'm with you on the improvements, though. I don't want to see the line go, but it will be the price for years and decades of neglect and poor planning and simple lack of political will. I remain unconvinced it had ever to come to this.

cml387

The Limerick Waterford line has been completely upgraded to continuous welded rail and there's all new rolling stock so don't use the lack of investment as an excuse for poor usage.

The problem is that it doesn't go where people want to go, and it's not serving sufficient population density.

Any Clonmel person who wants to go by train goes to Thurles or Kilkenny.

Close the line and turn it nto a greewnway (and I speak as a fan of railways).

Xenophile

cml387 wrote: »

Close the line and turn it nto a greewnway (and I speak as a fan of railways).

If you are going to close the line make sure the greenway goes all the way to Rosslare Harbour. What a great facility it would be for cyclists to disembark in Rosslare and cycle all the way to Limerick Junction.

cml387

Xenophile wrote: »

If you are going to close the line make sure the greenway goes all the way to Rosslare Harbour. What a great facility it would be for cyclists to disembark in Rosslare and cycle all the way to Limerick Junction.

Actually not a bad idea.

Bit of a bump here guys. Wasnt aware about the Tipp greenway up to today but it sounds fantastic. Would be great to link it with the Waterford greenway at Kilmeaden in time.

A greenway going from Clonmel to Thurles (the old trainline) via Fethard would be also fantastic. You have old stations at Laffansbridge that could be used as a route. There is a bungalow built on the old Farranaleen station (near Coolmore) now but im sure they could probably divert the route around it someway. You also had a route from Cashel to Thurles one time. Imagine being able to disembark and take in Cashel?

Its a concept probably a long way off but i think something like this is a worthwhile investment. May not be workable but certainly worth looking into. It could really open up rural ireland

marvin80

Deleted User wrote: »

Bit of a bump here guys. Wasnt aware about the Tipp greenway up to today but it sounds fantastic. Would be great to link it with the Waterford greenway at Kilmeaden in time.

A greenway going from Clonmel to Thurles (the old trainline) via Fethard would be also fantastic. You have old stations at Laffansbridge that could be used as a route. There is a bungalow built on the old Farranaleen station (near Coolmore) now but im sure they could probably divert the route around it someway. You also had a route from Cashel to Thurles one time. Imagine being able to disembark and take in Cashel?

Its a concept probably a long way off but i think something like this is a worthwhile investment. May not be workable but certainly worth looking into. It could really open up rural ireland

This idea sounds familiar!!

http://www.nationalist.ie/news/home/250613/call-for-clonmel-thurles-greenway-along-route-of-old-railway-line.html

marvin80

marvin80 wrote: »

This idea sounds familiar!!

http://www.nationalist.ie/news/home/250613/call-for-clonmel-thurles-greenway-along-route-of-old-railway-line.html

I actually sent an email Imelda Goldsboro about it last Saturday. Great to see the idea is in the pipeline. I must email Jim Ryan

marvin80

Deleted User wrote: »

I actually sent an email Imelda Goldsboro about it last Saturday. Great to see the idea is in the pipeline. I must email Jim Ryan

Good stuff - I must do something similar.

Saw this comment in the cycling forum referring to the Waterford Greenway:

"I did it a couple of weeks ago with the kids and we all loved it. We had lunch in a pub in Dungarvan. I asked the owner how business was since the Greenway opened, and she said that it had ramped up hugely. She had to open earlier, took on more staff, and was basically busy all day.
This type of thing is a no-brainer. The Galway nay-sayers are mad to impede this type of initiative."

marvin80

marvin80 wrote: »

Good stuff - I must do something similar.

Saw this comment in the cycling forum referring to the Waterford Greenway:

"I did it a couple of weeks ago with the kids and we all loved it. We had lunch in a pub in Dungarvan. I asked the owner how business was since the Greenway opened, and she said that it had ramped up hugely. She had to open earlier, took on more staff, and was basically busy all day.
This type of thing is a no-brainer. The Galway nay-sayers are mad to impede this type of initiative."

People can be strange. The Shannon was bursting its banks last year flooding many in Co Clare out of it and yet people continually protest over Dublin looking to use the Shannon waters

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/protest-grows-to-stop-dublin-plundering-shannon-water-1.580680

From what i hear there is a motion for the next council meeting in July for a feasiblity study to be conducted. I think there is many many challenges here.
The old route from Clonmel to Thurles took in the following

Clonmel > Fethard > Farranaleen > Laffansbridge > Horse and Jockey > Thurles

The line met a junction prior to heading into Thurles town

Here is the stations in the present day

Clonmel

Fethard

Farranaleen

Laffansbridge


Horse and Jockey

Thurles Junction

Thurles

Folks, im thinking of setting up a Facebook page for support for the Thurles to Clonmel greenway and would gladly support any other likewise projects nationwide. Is there interest here in such a project? would you be willing to share the page if i set it up. Im pondering whether to make it a nationwide initiative or keep it local. I do feel passionately that the old railways should be preserved where possible. For Irish rail and the govt to let them go to the state they were or worse still, be reclaimed

Other than the job creation and positivity the Waterford project has generated, from the point of view of incentivising people to get exercise in a safe environment i really do think this initiative is a no-brainer.

macjohn

Am not a big facebook user but would definitely share it.
Also may use twitter to various Tipp agencies and tourism bodies and business support agencies etc, the new tourism initiatives in Fethard and maybe colleges like LIT Tipperary/ MIC St. Pats


Really enjoyed the pics - some of the old stations are now obviously private dwellings. Interesting to see the rails still in what is now the floor of a steel works.

Obviously would take serious money to get it all done;
things like one of the abutments in Fethard having already been knocked adding to difficulties.

The Waterford one is attractive by basis of the fact that it is all private (ie never have to go on public road) the railway was still in use and fabulous sea views.

That said reckon there would still be a market for the Tipp one.

It is also a really interesting part of our heritage and of the economic life and societal knock on effect in the area.

Edit - yes no brainer as you say from the perspective of getting people out exercising.
Approx what would be the total distance on the line from Thurles to Clonmel?

Here is the abutment in Fethard. Absolutely no chance of a crossing here.

1 Due to the height
2 More pertinently, due to the housing estate opposite

Irish Rails decision to sell off this land to private owners is a bit shameful if im being honest. I suppose its easier speaking with the benefit of hindsight. While the railway might not have been economically feasible, surely the government could have identified the tourism potential?

marvin80

Good man Tipp_Gunner - if you setup a facebook page put the name of it up here and we can try get some shares etc.. on it.

I'd say if some councilors and TDs rowed in behind the idea it would gather traction very quickly as well.

Some great work with all the links in your post above - unfortunately it looks like a lot of work but the council should definitely do a feasibility study at the very least.

Where there's a will there's a way - in parts where the line is gone, maybe a secure cycle lane linking up to the next part of the railway line might be one way around it.

There's some great Greenways around Ireland now and the council could consult the relevant councils for ideas.

There's a Greenway adjacent to the old rail line between Mullingar and Athlone - it's top class.
You can see a before and after of it below.

2014 - before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gayuj-0M9bA

2016 - after:

http://www.athlone.ie/visit/old-rail-trail-athlone-mullingar-greenway/

Just having a look at the osi map now. You will notice a straight line going northerly from Clonmel.
Most of the route is realigned farmland. Fethard will prove problematic if impossible and the only option there may be an expensive one (tunnel boring) and id say forget about the old stations. Irish rail should be ashamed of themselves for selling the old stations to private buyers. Surely this should be what the opw is for? preserving heritage.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,621041,624125,9,3

Ultimate Seduction

Is the clonmel to tipp town line completely shut down so? Can't see them ever making it a greenway but I love walking on traintracks. If this line is out of use now I think I have my Saturday planned next weekend

Here is the facebook page. Please share

https://www.facebook.com/tippofftrack/?notif_t=page_invite_accepted&notif_id=1496007388676806

Ultimate Seduction

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Is the clonmel to tipp town line completely shut down so? Can't see them ever making it a greenway but I love walking on traintracks. If this line is out of use now I think I have my Saturday planned next weekend

Clonmel to Tipp town is still part of the barely going Waterford to Limerick line. Being honest, the service is a dead duck.

The powers that be will only make it a greenway if you make your voice heard. The railways opened up rural ireland in the mid 1800s and the greenways can reinvigorate that

Never assume that the powers that be wont do this or that. As they say, Assuming makes an Ass out of u and me. As the Waterford man on nationwide said recently, 'campaign to save your old line because when they are gone they are gone'

Here is the twitter page ive set up - please support

https://twitter.com/Tippofftrack

And here is the facebook link again. Share, like and feel free to post to

https://www.facebook.com/tippofftrack/

You would need to divert around Gleeson Quarries, Laffansbridge, as it's built across the old rail line for quite a bit.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

You would need to divert around Gleeson Quarries, Laffansbridge, as it's built across the old rail line for quite a bit.

Fair to say between private dwellings, the Fethard flyover and the quarry that using 100% of this old line as Waterford more or less did, will be highly unfeasible. But there is land that can be diverted around as you rightly suggest. Bord na Mona peat bogs are in the vicinity and with the impending closure of the peat production plant there may be an opportunity to utilise some of the land.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair to say between private dwellings, the Fethard flyover and the quarry that using 100% of this old line as Waterford more or less did, will be highly unfeasible. But there is land that can be diverted around as you rightly suggest. Bord na Mona peat bogs are in the vicinity and with the impending closure of the peat production plant there may be an opportunity to utilise some of the land.

The section I'm thinking of isn't that near the bog. It seems to be private farmland behind Gleesons. I think the railway used work the quarry before Gleesons bought it.

There is another section where the line crosses the road, along by the back road from Fethard to Clonmel, past Grove Road. There is still part of the old rail line there. I think this is where some group, possibly the IRA blew up the rail line and derailed a train back over 100 years ago. If I can dig out a link to this, I'll post it.

It would be an interesting project for some group to travel and photograph the route.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The section I'm thinking of isn't that near the bog. It seems to be private farmland behind Gleesons. I think the railway used work the quarry before Gleesons bought it.

There is another section where the line crosses the road, along by the back road from Fethard to Clonmel, past Grove Road. There is still part of the old rail line there. I think this is where some group, possibly the IRA blew up the rail line and derailed a train back over 100 years ago. If I can dig out a link to this, I'll post it.

It would be an interesting project for some group to travel and photograph the route.

Id love to do it but i cant help thinking there is quite a few dead ends along the route. Id imagine the council will get engineers to assess the whole area.

Your knowledge and expertise would be very much appreciated. I'm hoping to assemble a group and committee to meet and discuss the potential.

The Facebook page is absolutely hopping with activity tonight. There is real appetite for this project.

macjohn

Great to see all the positivity around this.
Hopefully get momentum behind it.

Yes there is issues to overcome (as there was in Waterford and elsewhere, (was there an effective rebuilding of a viaduct?) ) but lets not talk up the negatives at this stage, the survey will show what it shows and then a comparison can be made with other greenways then and operationally what had to be done.

There is a huge amount of positives to this and lets highlight those and get this project on the agenda.

macjohn

macjohn wrote: »

Great to see all the positivity around this.
Hopefully get momentum behind it.

Yes there is issues to overcome (as there was in Waterford and elsewhere, (was there an effective rebuilding of a viaduct?) ) but lets not talk up the negatives at this stage, the survey will show what it shows and then a comparison can be made with other greenways then and operationally what had to be done.

There is a huge amount of positives to this and lets highlight those and get this project on the agenda.

Exactly. The problem or need here is to join the two towns via a greenway and it isnt merely to use the old railway as a greenway. I suppose one solution is to utilise old railways where possible but lets not latch too much on to that solution and look at every aspect.
The main thing is there is an appetite for this amenity. 108 likes on facebook this evening alone. This will happen

Ultimate Seduction

Glanced at an article this morning in local limerick paper about a big Southern greenway getting the go ahead. I must find it when I get back from work and share the link. It may be of intrest

marvin80

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Glanced at an article this morning in local limerick paper about a big Southern greenway getting the go ahead. I must find it when I get back from work and share the link. It may be of intrest

Good stuff.

A separate thread has been created to discuss the Greenway here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057747241&page=2

Your link might be better suited there - looking forward to reading it.