Beware of false Christian theologies

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

You've obviously not read revelation.

I have read Revelation and nothing in it says that the punishment for sinners lasts for ever. Give me an exact quote from Revelation to substantiate your point of view.

uck51js9zml2yt

kieranwaldron wrote: »

I have read Revelation and nothing in it says that the punishment for sinners lasts for ever. Give me an exact quote from Revelation to substantiate your point of view.

They shall be cast into the lake of fire , which was preserved for Satan and his angels.

Advbrd

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Christ died for everyone. But not all will be saved.

Thanks for the platitude but perhaps you could answer the question.

looksee

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

I do. The Bible says that those who are not born again will be sent to hell and ultimately the lake of fire for total destruction.

Since you are discussing physical punishment of the body, can you explain to me at what stage a dead body that has been buried, or otherwise destroyed either deliberately or accidentally, is removed to this physical 'lake of fire'?

Or are we talking metaphysics, or metaphor here? In either case it might be a bit boring but how can a metaphorical or metaphysical situation create the physical pain that for some reason Christians are so fond of dwelling on?

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

They shall be cast into the lake of fire , which was preserved for Satan and his angels.

The quote provided doesn't support your assertion that the punishment lasts forever. if you are thrown physically into a lake of fire, you burn up in seconds which the Bible presents as the second death.

antiskeptic

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

It also says in Hebrews that we should not forsake assembling together

Assembling together needn't refer to church as commonly experienced today. There are some downsides to church (groupthink, religiousity, boredom being some of the things I've witnessed) along with the upsides.

If the downsides clearly outweigh the benefit then...

uck51js9zml2yt

Guys I'll come back to this thread next week.
I'm currently in the process of burying my mother.

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Guys I'll come back to this thread next week.
I'm currently in the process of burying my mother.

I commiserate with you on the loss of your mother. I look forward to seeing your point of view on this thread when you get back.

antiskeptic

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Guys I'll come back to this thread next week.
I'm currently in the process of burying my mother.

May the peace of the Lord, which/who descended upon my own family in same circumstances, be also with you. Sorry for this most poignant of losses Serenity Quaint Bedroom.

Skommando

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Guys I'll come back to this thread next week.
I'm currently in the process of burying my mother.

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord,
may perpetual light shine upon her,
and may her soul,
and the souls of all the faithful departed,
through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

uck51js9zml2yt

Skommando wrote: »

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord,
may perpetual light shine upon her,
and may her soul,
and the souls of all the faithful departed,
through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

Thanks. She went asleep and awoke in the presence of God. As the Psalmist says, it is written in the register that this one on born in Zion.
I doubt that she's getting to much rest these days.:)

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

They shall be cast into the lake of fire , which was preserved for Satan and his angels.

This quote doesn't support your contention that the punishment lasts forever. If you are thrown physically into a lake of fire you burn up in seconds - which the Bible refers to as the second death.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

This quote doesn't support your contention that the punishment lasts forever. If you are thrown physically into a lake of fire you burn up in seconds - which the Bible refers to as the second death.

Couple of thoughts..


"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"

To be punished eternally requires you to be around to bear it. One can't punish a corpse.

(Per chance, this verse also happens to do some damage to your contention that there is no immortal soul.)

-

It's worth noting too, that the place where the damned are destined be thrown, "preserved for Satan and his angels", has the following quality.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,"

"..will be tormented day and night forever and ever" doesn't lend itself to your idea of being "burned up in seconds".

-

Another factlet licked off the internet. The exact same Greek phrase, which is translated as "forever and ever" in the above verse is also used in the one below:

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.

kieranwaldron

antiskeptic wrote: »

Couple of thoughts..

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"

To be punished eternally requires you to be around to bear it. One can't punish a corpse.

(Per chance, this verse also happens to do some damage to your contention that there is no immortal soul.)

-It's worth noting too, that the place where the damned are destined be thrown, "preserved for Satan and his angels", has the following quality.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,"

"..will be tormented day and night forever and ever" doesn't lend itself to your idea of being "burned up in seconds".
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In reply, I would draw your attention to Revelation 21:8 which says the following :  " But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The Bible regards death in the lake of fire to be eternal punishment as you are thereby separated from God for ever.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

In reply, I would draw your attention to Revelation 21:8 which says the following :  " But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The Bible regards death in the lake of fire to be eternal punishment as you are thereby separated from God for ever.

I agree with your last sentence.


The first death doesn't result in the end of a person (these same people are, post 1st death, either going to heaven or be cast into the lake of fire). What basis for supposing death produces the end of a person? We have positive evidence that the word "death" doesn't mean the end of existence.

We have the aforementioned fact that the lake of fire doesn't "burn things up in a second" to prevent progression down that line.

We also have forever and ever. You can't, in plain English-speak, be punished forever and ever .. if you don't exist. You can only be punished for as long as you exist.

-

All these point towards existential punishment forever. We await some positive argument (not presumption) to begin to stitch together your contention.

looksee

antiskeptic wrote: »

We await some positive argument (not presumption) to begin to stitch together your contention.

kieranwaldron

antiskeptic wrote: »

I agree with your last sentence.


The first death doesn't result in the end of a person (these same people are, post 1st death, either going to heaven or be cast into the lake of fire). What basis for supposing death produces the end of a person? We have positive evidence that the word "death" doesn't mean the end of existence.

We have the aforementioned fact that the lake of fire doesn't "burn things up in a second" to prevent progression down that line.

We also have forever and ever. You can't, in plain English-speak, be punished forever and ever .. if you don't exist. You can only be punished for as long as you exist.

All these point towards existential punishment forever. We await some positive argument (not presumption) to begin to stitch together your contention.

The only presumption that I made was that a person thrown bodily into the lake of fire would burn up in seconds, or at least be unconscious before a count to 60.

The death at the end of this life (the first death) is not the end of things as everybody is resurrected and then judged by Jesus Christ. If you past the test you are given everlasting life here on earth, not in heaven. If you do not past the test you are thrown into the lake of fire and die again (the second death). The Bible sometimes refers to the second death as everlasting punishment as it separates a person from God forever. There is no comeback from the second death.

Skommando

kieranwaldron wrote: »

The only presumption that I made was that a person thrown bodily into the lake of fire would burn up in seconds, or at least be unconscious before a count to 60.

The death at the end of this life (the first death) is not the end of things as everybody is resurrected and then judged by Jesus Christ. If you past the test you are given everlasting life here on earth, not in heaven. If you do not past the test you are thrown into the lake of fire and die again (the second death). The Bible sometimes refers to the second death as everlasting punishment as it separates a person from God forever. There is no comeback from the second death.

If scripture used the idiom raining cats and dogs, and you didn't understand the meaning, would you really jump to the illogical conclusion that because you don't understand the meaning, rain is therefore impossible, there can be no rain ?

Equally if you didn't understand the meaning of the phrase, "he was over the moon", would you jump to the conclusion, that because you don't understand the meaning of that phrase, therefore the moon cannot exist ?

If you read the new testament, Jesus (more than anyone else in scripture in fact) warned his followers over and over about hell.
You might not want to believe it exists, but Christ was in no doubt about it's existence, whatever form it happens to take.

Also there can be no mercy, without there also being justice.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

The only presumption that I made was that a person thrown bodily into the lake of fire would burn up in seconds, or at least be unconscious before a count to 60.

Jesus seems to hold a different view:


"The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’"



And we have other persons being thrown into that place who are also tormented forever and ever. This fire doesn't necessarily consume.

The reliance on a presumption that the constitution of persons/fire in Hell would act precisely as fire does on persons in our world is problematic. You need a basis for this idea.

The death at the end of this life (the first death) is not the end of things as everybody is resurrected and then judged by Jesus Christ.

As already stated, we know that the word death doesn't mean the end in the case of the first death. To suppose the 2nd death does mean the end then you need something else to lay that idea on. Not the word death itself.

Thus..

If you past the test you are given everlasting life here on earth, not in heaven. If you do not past the test you are thrown into the lake of fire and die again (the second death).

...die can't, by itself, be taken to mean the end of existence.

The Bible sometimes refers to the second death as everlasting punishment as it separates a person from God forever. There is no comeback from the second death.

Agreed.




The evidence, in so far as it is given us, points in the direction of ongoing existence. Can't you point to evidence that points in the other direction?

looksee

What a gruesome discussion. 'Gentle Jesus, meek and mild' believe in me or I will torture you forever? It is of course pretty hard to establish as, if I don't believe then I can not be subjected to these sadistic punishments, and if I do believe I will not be subjected either, because whatever wrongs I commit will be forgiven. So it just leaves you with believers who are confident that non-believers will be punished, even though it does not concern them.

antiskeptic

looksee wrote: »

'Gentle Jesus, meek and mild'

Is a misrepresentation.

believe in me or..

..you'll face the consequences of your sin and your choice not to avail of a route to avoidance of same*

It is of course pretty hard to establish as, if I don't believe then I can not be subjected to these sadistic punishments

Ignorance isn't a defence before the law. The reason it's not a defence is that the law presumes that you are adequately equipped by conscience/knowledge to know that there is something not quite kosher about what you're engaging in.

*IF it is the case that you don't need to believe in Jesus to be saved (e.g. Abraham) AND the means whereby you can be saved are nevertheless presented to you and rejected by you THEN your end will be rendered a fitting one. Determined by you and the choice you made.

The presumption is that you have a choice as to whether you want to partake or not in the project of God. It appears that God doesn't give anyone this choice - we all will give our answer to the question he asks. And he can present that question to everyone irrespective of their belief system. It doesn't matter whether these belief systems are theistic or atheistic.

kieranwaldron

Skommando wrote: »

If scripture used the idiom raining cats and dogs, and you didn't understand the meaning, would you really jump to the illogical conclusion that because you don't understand the meaning, rain is therefore impossible, there can be no rain ?

Equally if you didn't understand the meaning of the phrase, "he was over the moon", would you jump to the conclusion, that because you don't understand the meaning of that phrase, therefore the moon cannot exist ?

If you read the new testament, Jesus (more than anyone else in scripture in fact) warned his followers over and over about hell.
You might not want to believe it exists, but Christ was in no doubt about it's existence, whatever form it happens to take.

Also there can be no mercy, without there also being justice.

God in Genesis 2:17 did not warn Adam of punishment for his disobedience of an eternal hellfire, instead he said: "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

Paul in Romans 6:23 confirmed that death is the penalty for sin when he said:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Similarly, John preached the destruction of the wicked when in John 3:16 he said the following : "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Peter was also an annihilationist when in 2 Peter 2:6 he said: " He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; "

Jesus Christ in the New Testament did not advance the notion of eternal torment in a hellfire for sinners. What he said in the NT has been misrepresented due to translation errors. His reference to Gehenna was to it as a place of destruction. The Greek word Gehenna was translated in English as hell. Gehenna, in fact, was a rubbish dump, where a fire constantly burned, on the south side of Jerusalem in the first century AD, and the Jews he was speaking to understood the symbolism used.

looksee

antiskeptic wrote: »

Is a misrepresentation.



..you'll face the consequences of your sin and your choice not to avail of a route to avoidance of same*




Ignorance isn't a defence before the law. The reason it's not a defence is that the law presumes that you are adequately equipped by conscience/knowledge to know that there is something not quite kosher about what you're engaging in.

*IF it is the case that you don't need to believe in Jesus to be saved (e.g. Abraham) AND the means whereby you can be saved are nevertheless presented to you and rejected by you THEN your end will be rendered a fitting one. Determined by you and the choice you made.

The presumption is that you have a choice as to whether you want to partake or not in the project of God. It appears that God doesn't give anyone this choice - we all will give our answer to the question he asks. And he can present that question to everyone irrespective of their belief system. It doesn't matter whether these belief systems are theistic or atheistic.

And here you are wholly missing the point. You believe the bit I have bolded. If I do not then it is not true. It is only true for you because you believe it.

antiskeptic

looksee wrote: »

And here you are wholly missing the point. You believe the bit I have bolded. If I do not then it is not true. It is only true for you because you believe it.

I think you would accept that what is true is true, irrespective of what we believe about it.

And if what I believe to be the case is true in fact, then you won't avoid punishment simply by not believing. In other words, this statement is nonsense.

if I don't believe then I can not be subjected to these sadistic punishments

looksee

And at this point I have to opt out of this discussion as I will go against the Christianity charter if I follow the argument through.

You may argue about truth and belief and what is nonsense, I may not.

solodeogloria

looksee wrote: »

And here you are wholly missing the point. You believe the bit I have bolded. If I do not then it is not true. It is only true for you because you believe it.

Good evening!

No. This is post modernism.

The reality is there is truth and there is falsehood. Either Jesus Christ is who He says He is or He is not. Jesus is either the rescuing Saviour who came into this world to rescue and to save on the cross or He's nothing of the sort.

The confirmation of the gospel being true won't be my belief in it, but whether or not the specific history of the Bible happened and whether Jesus will return to judge.

Jesus offers mercy and grace to those who believe and trust in Him but of course He's going to judge the world for how they have rebelled against God the loving and just ruler of this world.

That's the gospel. It doesn't change.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

kieranwaldron

On reading again my points 1-6 in my original piece to open this thread, I have found better evidence from the Bible to substantiate my points 3 and 4. Both of these quotations are from Psalm in the Old Testament.

My point 3 was concerning what happens to people who die in a state of sin, and Psalm 145:20 says the following: "The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy ". Note there is no mention in the quotation of eternal punishment in a hellfire as wrongly taught by many Christian churches; and it clearly indicates that all the wicked will be annihilated.

My point 4 was about the destiny of the saved, and Psalm 37:9 says the following: "For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land." Note there is no mention of heaven in the quotation instead it says the saved will inherit the land (or the earth) which backs-up my point adequately.

Peregrinus

Well, remember that the psalms were produced by a culture that had no clear notion of an afterlife, and no expectation of eternal life for either the wicked or the virtuous. When the psalms talk about death they mean death as we know it. When they say that "the Lord preserves those who love him" they don't mean he preserves them for ever in the afterlife; just that he preserves them from untimely death in this life. And people "inherit the land" simply by surviving those who die; there is no suggestion that, having inherited the land, they will live on it for ever.

Remember, the scriptural texts were produced over a very long period of time, and they document a growing relationship between God and his people and, with that, a growing understanding (on the part of the people).

Basically, I think you're correct to say that the psalms don't indicate any eternal punishment for the wicked, but equally they don't indicate any eternal reward for the just. These are both ideas that only developed over time.

antiskeptic

looksee wrote: »

And at this point I have to opt out of this discussion as I will go against the Christianity charter if I follow the argument through

I was merely raising what I thought was an illogical statement. Your supposing that not believing in something absolved you from the impact of it in the case it was true.

Like not believing in cancer protecting you from getting cancer.

I don't think that contravenes the forum charter and I don't seek to hide behind it

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

Psalm 145:20 says the following: "The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy ". Note there is no mention in the quotation of eternal punishment in a hellfire as wrongly taught by many Christian churches; and it clearly indicates that all the wicked will be annihilated.

There is a difference between destroy and annihilation (in the sense of that latter meaning ending of existence altogether)

dictionary: ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.

The destroyed person still exists after the destruction.

My point 4 was about the destiny of the saved, and Psalm 37:9 says the following: "For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land." Note there is no mention of heaven in the quotation instead it says the saved will inherit the land (or the earth) which backs-up my point adequately.

I'd have no issue with the idea of our destiny being a recreated earth. It's a biblically sound one in my view. Not to speak of making a lot of sense.