Beware of false Christian theologies

kieranwaldron

I was brought up in rural Ireland and by the age of seventeen was very familiar with Catholic teaching, as by that age I had attended four of their schools. In later life, I found out by doing searches on the Bible using online resources that most of the Catholic Church's teachings contradict Scripture. I list as follows the main incorrect teachings that I found against which you can assess if the particular church you belong to has strictly adhered to Scripture.

1. Man has an immortal soul. Nowhere in the Bible are the words " immortal soul " found. If God had given man such an attribute, He would have pointed it out in the Bible as it is impossible to work it out independently of man's manufacturer. Genesis 2:7 says of the creation of Adam : "God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". Therefore a soul is something you are, not something you have. The Bible also uses the Hebrew word translated as " soul " in relation to the creation of animals. A definition of "soul" as it is used in the Bible is : " a living creature ". The belief that man had an immortal soul was first asserted by the ancient Egyptians who were pagans. The ancient Greeks also believed it, and the Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato publicized the belief widely. The people who framed Christianity in the centuries after the Apostles died did so incorrectly, by taking heed of what Plato said about the soul rather than the Bible.

2. The Doctrine of the trinity. The word " trinity" is found nowhere in the Bible. Mainstream Christianity teaches that there is an equal trio of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. First of all, there aren't three separate entities involved; the Holy Spirit as taught in the Bible is an integral part of God; the part of God that He uses to enforce His will. The following passage demonstrates this: " Now that we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God "(1.Cor.2.12). The Bible makes it plain in several Bible verses that Jesus Christ is inferior to God, thereby further undermining the doctrine of an equal trinity. Jesus Christ went out of his way to point out in several Bible verses that he was subordinate to God. The following quotation from Paul also separates God from Jesus Christ in one verse : " For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ " (1. Tim.2.5).

3. The wicked are punished in hell. As I demonstrated in point 1 above man does not have an immortal soul, therefore there is no chance that the wicked commence their punishment immediately after death. The Bible teaches that the dead have no recollection of anything whilst they are in the grave. The Bible sometimes likens death at the end of this life to " sleeping ". This is a good comparison because those who are now " sleeping " will be resurrected at a future date to judgement by Christ; and if they don't measure up they are destroyed - they die a second time in the "lake o# fire ". ( Rev. 20 :14 ). The most appropriate quotation to demonstrate this point is John 3.16 : " For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life ".

4. The saved go to heaven. The points made by me in 3 about the soul and the state of the dead are also applicable here. The Bible teaches that heaven is simply the abode of God. It further teaches that the only person ever to go to heaven was Jesus Christ, who went there at the invitation of God. A judgement immediately after death is not mentioned in the Bible; instead it says the dead are resurrected and then judged by Christ when he returns to the earth. The reward for measuring up in the judgement is eternal life on a reconstituted earth. The following Bible verse is the most appropriate here: " Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth " ( Mat. 5:5).

5. Mary and the saints should be worshipped. The Bible gives Mary due credit for what she did in bringing about Jesus Christ, but it doesn't say anywhere that she should be worshipped or glorified; it states worship should be confined to God alone. Paul says in the Bible in 1. Corinthians 10.31 : " So whatever you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God ". The Mary worship that has built up over the years in the Roman Church is therefore false and unbiblical. Similarly, people who have done good things in life should not be cannonised and placed in heaven inspiring prayer and worship to them. Instead, the Holy date.

6. God has no plan for the earth. Mainstream Christianity by falsely putting people after death in heaven or hell never get to God's plan for the planet, as outlined in the wrap-up book of the Bible, Revelation. In The Kingdom of God to come on earth saved human beings will be given a new body and will help Jesus Christ reign for a thousand years in a kingdom consisting of an earthly paradise brought about by a reformed earth. At the Book states that anyone who has done good deeds in this life and has died will be rewarded in the judgement after the resurrection of the dead at a future end of Christ's preparatory work, God will vacate His current abode in heaven and come to live upon the earth in complete harmony with His people.

The above demonstrates that most of the Christian world have been misled by various churches as to the true message of the Bible. If you have got anything to say on this piece, do so here.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

1. Man has an immortal soul. Nowhere in the Bible are the words " immortal soul " found.

So what? If you can reasonably infer the existence of one then that's good enough.

Perhaps, by way of beginning to support your contention, you could explain your view on Moses and Elijah appearing with and talking to Jesus.

2. The Doctrine of the trinity.[/B] The word " trinity" is found nowhere in the Bible.

Again, so what?

Mainstream Christianity teaches that there is an equal trio of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. First of all, there aren't three separate entities involved; the Holy Spirit as taught in the Bible is an integral part of God; the part of God that He uses to enforce His will.

I'm not so sure you have what is taught, straight. The teaching (in so far as I've attended to it) is that there are three separate personhoods without there being three divisible gods. Now that leaves us with a problem since we've no experience of three personhoods anywhere else without there being division between them. So far so mysterious.

The following passage demonstrates this: " Now that we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God "(1.Cor.2.12).

Spirit from God (if we hold to the separate persons notion ) easily reads "something that is not God the father, sent by the father. His (the Spirit's) mission, set by the Father, is to illuminate something the gifts bestowed on us by the Father.

The Bible makes it plain in several Bible verses that Jesus Christ is inferior to God, thereby further undermining the doctrine of an equal trinity. Jesus Christ went out of his way to point out in several Bible verses that he was subordinate to God.

You have a low threshold for deciding something plain! Subordinate can be taken to mean inferior/lower/less important when you look around at it's working in this world. But in those cases, the subordination is imposed. The boss has the power, the lowly worker not. There is no choice on the part of the worker in being the subordinate - not unless he's prepared to starve by going without the job. He is indeed in the inferior position.

In the case of Christ, he subordinated himself. This is utterly different. Something he chose to do, not something he had to do. You are not rendered inferior if you chose to take anothers lead.

The following quotation from Paul also separates God from Jesus Christ in one verse : " For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ " (1. Tim.2.5).

How does this contradict Trinity teaching? Such teaching supposes separate personhoodsl

Skommando

I had a read of the forum Charter (Given some of the posts, and despite the "please read" request, it makes me wonder does anyone else ever read it ?)

"2. For the purposes of this board 'Christian' means broad assent to historic Christian belief such as is contained in the Apostles' Creed. Individual posters with other beliefs, however, are welcome."

"4. Please be honest about your faith where it makes a clear difference to your answer. This isn't "Personal Issues"... if a person comes here with a problem, it is probably because they think a Christian answer will be more relevant to them. This is not to discourage non-Christians replying, it is simply a matter of courtesy.

Could the poster please identify if they are perhaps a Jehovah's witness, Morman or suchlike, it might make the discussion more productive ?

Thinkingaboutit

Skommando wrote: »

I had a read of the forum Charter (Given some of the posts, and despite the "please read" request, it makes me wonder does anyone else ever read it ?)

"2. For the purposes of this board 'Christian' means broad assent to historic Christian belief such as is contained in the Apostles' Creed. Individual posters with other beliefs, however, are welcome."

"4. Please be honest about your faith where it makes a clear difference to your answer. This isn't "Personal Issues"... if a person comes here with a problem, it is probably because they think a Christian answer will be more relevant to them. This is not to discourage non-Christians replying, it is simply a matter of courtesy.

Could the poster please identify if they are perhaps a Jehovah's witness, Morman or suchlike, it might make the discussion more productive ?

Likely a Jehovah's Witness and the opening post reads like mailing list copypasta. Jehovah's Witnesses employ weird and frankly illiterate translations of Koine Greek, something which puts them outside nearly all Christian traditions. Possibly some of the notions he suggests draw on Unitarianism, but they don't make their points in that way.

Advbrd

So, you found issues with the bible. Well, that's a revelation in itself perhaps worthy of a book.
Personally, I have a lot more issues with the bible than listed above buy I will abide by the charter.

gctest50

It's just a link-dropping scumbag blogger, some of them would do anything for traffic



http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057662240/1/#post101432798





someone should ask the mods to delete this thread and not be encouraging them, or the next one will just try sneakier ways to get a few clicks

Advbrd

They should not have snipped the link. I would like to have a gander for a laugh.

kieranwaldron

Thanks antiskeptic for your points on my post, to which I reply as follows.

You cannot " reasonably infer " the existence of an immortal soul in man from anything said in the Bible. Jesus brought Moses and Elijah back to life on a temporary basis by performing a miracle in order to prove to those present that he was the link between heaven and the earth.

The Bible does not teach that God consists of " three separate personhoods "; and in many instances it demonstrates that Jesus Christ is inferior to God.

kieranwaldron

Skommando wrote: »

Could the poster please identify if they are perhaps a Jehovah's witness, Morman or suchlike, it might make the discussion more productive ?

I am a Christian who does not belong to any church.

uck51js9zml2yt

kieranwaldron wrote: »

I am a Christian who does not belong to any church.

Then you're not a Christian!

Advbrd

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Then you're not a Christian!

Please explain that to me.

blueshade

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote:

Then you're not a Christian!

As I understand it, all that's required is that you have faith in Jesus Christ and accept him as your saviour.

Mancomb Seepgood

Point 5 is completely false. You may not agree with Catholic (and Orthodox) practices regarding prayer to Mary, but they do not worship her.

Your other points are points of view which others have advanced. You're entitled to argue them, but bear in mind that it's possible for sincere people of good will to disagree. Perhaps consider getting involved in a church of some description, it's good to be part of a community of faith, even if you don't agree on everything.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

Thanks antiskeptic for your points on my post, to which I reply as follows.

So let's look. I gave a single example in order to see how the discussion would go. There are plenty more.

Jesus brought Moses and Elijah back to life on a temporary basis by performing a miracle in order to prove to those present that he was the link between heaven and the earth.

There is nothing about Jesus performing a miracle in this case. Nor that their post-death existence was a temporary affair.

It is interesting to note the dictionary definition:

"come into sight; become visible or noticeable, especially without apparent cause."

The word appear doesn't lend itself to notions of being created. There is the sense of once hidden > now revealed about it.

The Bible does not teach that God consists of " three separate personhoods "; and in many instances it demonstrates that Jesus Christ is inferior to God.

Could you give an example of inferiority which isn't addressed by the argument previously made by me (regarding Jesus' chosen-for-subordination not equalling inferiority of position wrt the father). Or counter the argument itself.

There are three distinct persons indicated. What can I say?

antiskeptic

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Then you're not a Christian!

He might just mean he doesn't belong to any physical grouping as such. Neither do I.

antiskeptic

blueshade wrote: »

As I understand it, all that's required is that you have faith in Jesus Christ and accept him as your saviour.

There's a thread I keep meaning to pick back up but in it, the problem of Abraham. He was saved long before Jesus could be accepted as a saviour.

So salvation must involve something else at root.

Peregrinus

Obviously I cannot speak for how kieranwaldron identifies himself, but the positions he professes line up fairly neatly with those of the Christadelphians, a movement which emerged from Protestant Christianity in the mid-nineteenth century, and which is still largely confined to the English-speaking world. Signficantly, the Christadelphians don't consider either the movement as a whole or its individual congregations to be "churches"; a congregation is instead referred to as an ecclesia (which as well all know on this Board is a Greek word meaning "assembly"), and it meets in a hall or a chapel but defininitely not in a church. So it could be that kieranwaldron doesn't belong to a church because he belongs to an ecclesia. Or, of course, it could be that he doesn't belong to any kind of organised Christian community.

kieranwaldron

antiskeptic wrote: »

He might just mean he doesn't belong to any physical grouping as such. Neither do I.

That's exactly what I mean.

kieranwaldron

Peregrinus wrote: »

Obviously I cannot speak for how kieranwaldron identifies himself, but the positions he professes line up fairly neatly with those of the Christadelphians, a movement which emerged from Protestant Christianity in the mid-nineteenth century, and which is still largely confined to the English-speaking world. Signficantly, the Christadelphians don't consider either the movement as a whole or its individual congregations to be "churches"; a congregation is instead referred to as an ecclesia (which as well all know on this Board is a Greek word meaning "assembly"), and it meets in a hall or a chapel but defininitely not in a church. So it could be that kieranwaldron doesn't belong to a church because he belongs to an ecclesia. Or, of course, it could be that he doesn't belong to any kind of organised Christian community.

The conclusions I have come to in points 1-6 above are wholly mine from research that I have done. I am however aware of a group of Bible scholars online called the Christadelphians whose conclusions, at least in part, may agree with mine.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

That's exactly what I mean.

There are advantages and disadvantages to a "church". Groupthink being the most significant player of the disadvantage side.

Groupthink is fine, except if it's wrongthink. And it's more likely to be wrongthink than rightthink once group dynamics get to work

uck51js9zml2yt

antiskeptic wrote: »

He might just mean he doesn't belong to any physical grouping as such. Neither do I.

What I mean is that there is only One Church. The church of the redeemed ones. You must be a Christian to be part of it and visa versa.
It's a Church which has its place in both heaven and earth. Just read Hebrews!

Skommando

kieranwaldron wrote: »

The conclusions I have come to in points 1-6 above are wholly mine from research that I have done.

Then you'll need to do a lot more research, because each of them are either wrong or complete misrepresentations of mainstream Christianity. Most of them, if not all of them, have been done to death on this forum dozens of times if you look through older threads.

kieranwaldron

Skommando wrote: »

Then you'll need to do a lot more research, because each of them are either wrong or complete misrepresentations of mainstream Christianity. Most of them, if not all of them, have been done to death on this forum dozens of times if you look through older threads.

It is mainstream Christianity that is wrong and not my research. If you take my point 3 above, for example, do you really believe that God has people who die in a state of sin tortured in hell for eternity as taught by mainstream Christianity ?

uck51js9zml2yt

kieranwaldron wrote: »

It is mainstream Christianity that is wrong and not my research. If you take my point 3 above, for example, do you really believe that God has people who die in a state of sin tortured in hell for eternity as taught by mainstream Christianity ?

I do. The Bible says that those who are not born again will be sent to hell and ultimately the lake of fire for total destruction.

antiskeptic

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

What I mean is that there is only One Church.

Agreed

The church of the redeemed ones.

Agreed

You must be a Christian to be part of it

Agreed .. assuming you hold that Abraham was a Christian?

It's a Church which has its place in both heaven and earth. Just read Hebrews!

Agreed. I assume you agree that you don't have to be part of a physical congregation in order to belong to the Church?

uck51js9zml2yt

antiskeptic wrote: »

Agreed




Agreed




Agreed .. assuming you hold that Abraham was a Christian?




Agreed. I assume you agree that you don't have to be part of a physical congregation in order to belong to the Church?

It also says in Hebrews that we should not forsake assembling together

Advbrd

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

It also says in Hebrews that we should not forsake assembling together

Are you of the view that non Christians are doomed to hell?

blueshade

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote:

It also says in Hebrews that we should not forsake assembling together

But it's not actually required though.

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

I do. The Bible says that those who are not born again will be sent to hell and ultimately the lake of fire for total destruction.

You are very mixed up in your reply. In your reply to the question that I asked you replied : I do..........and then go on to acknowledge ultimate destruction (annihilation) in the lake of fire. Mainstream Christianity never taught annihilation in the lake of fire instead they taught that sinners were punished for eternity ( for ever ) in a hellfire. If you are thrown bodily into a lake of fire you die within a few seconds and your punishment does not continue for ever.

uck51js9zml2yt

kieranwaldron wrote: »

You are very mixed up in your reply. In your reply to the question that I asked you replied : I do..........and then go on to acknowledge ultimate destruction (annihilation) in the lake of fire. Mainstream Christianity never taught annihilation in the lake of fire instead they taught that sinners were punished for eternity ( for ever ) in a hellfire. If you are thrown bodily into a lake of fire you die within a few seconds and your punishment does not continue for ever.

You've obviously not read revelation.

uck51js9zml2yt

Advbrd wrote: »

Are you of the view that non Christians are doomed to hell?

Christ died for everyone. But not all will be saved.

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

You've obviously not read revelation.

I have read Revelation and nothing in it says that the punishment for sinners lasts for ever. Give me an exact quote from Revelation to substantiate your point of view.

uck51js9zml2yt

kieranwaldron wrote: »

I have read Revelation and nothing in it says that the punishment for sinners lasts for ever. Give me an exact quote from Revelation to substantiate your point of view.

They shall be cast into the lake of fire , which was preserved for Satan and his angels.

Advbrd

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Christ died for everyone. But not all will be saved.

Thanks for the platitude but perhaps you could answer the question.

looksee

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

I do. The Bible says that those who are not born again will be sent to hell and ultimately the lake of fire for total destruction.

Since you are discussing physical punishment of the body, can you explain to me at what stage a dead body that has been buried, or otherwise destroyed either deliberately or accidentally, is removed to this physical 'lake of fire'?

Or are we talking metaphysics, or metaphor here? In either case it might be a bit boring but how can a metaphorical or metaphysical situation create the physical pain that for some reason Christians are so fond of dwelling on?

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

They shall be cast into the lake of fire , which was preserved for Satan and his angels.

The quote provided doesn't support your assertion that the punishment lasts forever. if you are thrown physically into a lake of fire, you burn up in seconds which the Bible presents as the second death.

antiskeptic

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

It also says in Hebrews that we should not forsake assembling together

Assembling together needn't refer to church as commonly experienced today. There are some downsides to church (groupthink, religiousity, boredom being some of the things I've witnessed) along with the upsides.

If the downsides clearly outweigh the benefit then...

uck51js9zml2yt

Guys I'll come back to this thread next week.
I'm currently in the process of burying my mother.

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Guys I'll come back to this thread next week.
I'm currently in the process of burying my mother.

I commiserate with you on the loss of your mother. I look forward to seeing your point of view on this thread when you get back.

antiskeptic

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Guys I'll come back to this thread next week.
I'm currently in the process of burying my mother.

May the peace of the Lord, which/who descended upon my own family in same circumstances, be also with you. Sorry for this most poignant of losses Serenity Quaint Bedroom.

Skommando

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

Guys I'll come back to this thread next week.
I'm currently in the process of burying my mother.

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord,
may perpetual light shine upon her,
and may her soul,
and the souls of all the faithful departed,
through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

uck51js9zml2yt

Skommando wrote: »

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord,
may perpetual light shine upon her,
and may her soul,
and the souls of all the faithful departed,
through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

Thanks. She went asleep and awoke in the presence of God. As the Psalmist says, it is written in the register that this one on born in Zion.
I doubt that she's getting to much rest these days.:)

kieranwaldron

Serenity Quaint Bedroom wrote: »

They shall be cast into the lake of fire , which was preserved for Satan and his angels.

This quote doesn't support your contention that the punishment lasts forever. If you are thrown physically into a lake of fire you burn up in seconds - which the Bible refers to as the second death.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

This quote doesn't support your contention that the punishment lasts forever. If you are thrown physically into a lake of fire you burn up in seconds - which the Bible refers to as the second death.

Couple of thoughts..


"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"

To be punished eternally requires you to be around to bear it. One can't punish a corpse.

(Per chance, this verse also happens to do some damage to your contention that there is no immortal soul.)

-

It's worth noting too, that the place where the damned are destined be thrown, "preserved for Satan and his angels", has the following quality.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,"

"..will be tormented day and night forever and ever" doesn't lend itself to your idea of being "burned up in seconds".

-

Another factlet licked off the internet. The exact same Greek phrase, which is translated as "forever and ever" in the above verse is also used in the one below:

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.

kieranwaldron

antiskeptic wrote: »

Couple of thoughts..

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"

To be punished eternally requires you to be around to bear it. One can't punish a corpse.

(Per chance, this verse also happens to do some damage to your contention that there is no immortal soul.)

-It's worth noting too, that the place where the damned are destined be thrown, "preserved for Satan and his angels", has the following quality.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,"

"..will be tormented day and night forever and ever" doesn't lend itself to your idea of being "burned up in seconds".
[/B].[/I]

In reply, I would draw your attention to Revelation 21:8 which says the following :  " But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The Bible regards death in the lake of fire to be eternal punishment as you are thereby separated from God for ever.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

In reply, I would draw your attention to Revelation 21:8 which says the following :  " But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The Bible regards death in the lake of fire to be eternal punishment as you are thereby separated from God for ever.

I agree with your last sentence.


The first death doesn't result in the end of a person (these same people are, post 1st death, either going to heaven or be cast into the lake of fire). What basis for supposing death produces the end of a person? We have positive evidence that the word "death" doesn't mean the end of existence.

We have the aforementioned fact that the lake of fire doesn't "burn things up in a second" to prevent progression down that line.

We also have forever and ever. You can't, in plain English-speak, be punished forever and ever .. if you don't exist. You can only be punished for as long as you exist.

-

All these point towards existential punishment forever. We await some positive argument (not presumption) to begin to stitch together your contention.

looksee

antiskeptic wrote: »

We await some positive argument (not presumption) to begin to stitch together your contention.

kieranwaldron

antiskeptic wrote: »

I agree with your last sentence.


The first death doesn't result in the end of a person (these same people are, post 1st death, either going to heaven or be cast into the lake of fire). What basis for supposing death produces the end of a person? We have positive evidence that the word "death" doesn't mean the end of existence.

We have the aforementioned fact that the lake of fire doesn't "burn things up in a second" to prevent progression down that line.

We also have forever and ever. You can't, in plain English-speak, be punished forever and ever .. if you don't exist. You can only be punished for as long as you exist.

All these point towards existential punishment forever. We await some positive argument (not presumption) to begin to stitch together your contention.

The only presumption that I made was that a person thrown bodily into the lake of fire would burn up in seconds, or at least be unconscious before a count to 60.

The death at the end of this life (the first death) is not the end of things as everybody is resurrected and then judged by Jesus Christ. If you past the test you are given everlasting life here on earth, not in heaven. If you do not past the test you are thrown into the lake of fire and die again (the second death). The Bible sometimes refers to the second death as everlasting punishment as it separates a person from God forever. There is no comeback from the second death.

Skommando

kieranwaldron wrote: »

The only presumption that I made was that a person thrown bodily into the lake of fire would burn up in seconds, or at least be unconscious before a count to 60.

The death at the end of this life (the first death) is not the end of things as everybody is resurrected and then judged by Jesus Christ. If you past the test you are given everlasting life here on earth, not in heaven. If you do not past the test you are thrown into the lake of fire and die again (the second death). The Bible sometimes refers to the second death as everlasting punishment as it separates a person from God forever. There is no comeback from the second death.

If scripture used the idiom raining cats and dogs, and you didn't understand the meaning, would you really jump to the illogical conclusion that because you don't understand the meaning, rain is therefore impossible, there can be no rain ?

Equally if you didn't understand the meaning of the phrase, "he was over the moon", would you jump to the conclusion, that because you don't understand the meaning of that phrase, therefore the moon cannot exist ?

If you read the new testament, Jesus (more than anyone else in scripture in fact) warned his followers over and over about hell.
You might not want to believe it exists, but Christ was in no doubt about it's existence, whatever form it happens to take.

Also there can be no mercy, without there also being justice.

antiskeptic

kieranwaldron wrote: »

The only presumption that I made was that a person thrown bodily into the lake of fire would burn up in seconds, or at least be unconscious before a count to 60.

Jesus seems to hold a different view:


"The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’"



And we have other persons being thrown into that place who are also tormented forever and ever. This fire doesn't necessarily consume.

The reliance on a presumption that the constitution of persons/fire in Hell would act precisely as fire does on persons in our world is problematic. You need a basis for this idea.

The death at the end of this life (the first death) is not the end of things as everybody is resurrected and then judged by Jesus Christ.

As already stated, we know that the word death doesn't mean the end in the case of the first death. To suppose the 2nd death does mean the end then you need something else to lay that idea on. Not the word death itself.

Thus..

If you past the test you are given everlasting life here on earth, not in heaven. If you do not past the test you are thrown into the lake of fire and die again (the second death).

...die can't, by itself, be taken to mean the end of existence.

The Bible sometimes refers to the second death as everlasting punishment as it separates a person from God forever. There is no comeback from the second death.

Agreed.




The evidence, in so far as it is given us, points in the direction of ongoing existence. Can't you point to evidence that points in the other direction?

looksee

What a gruesome discussion. 'Gentle Jesus, meek and mild' believe in me or I will torture you forever? It is of course pretty hard to establish as, if I don't believe then I can not be subjected to these sadistic punishments, and if I do believe I will not be subjected either, because whatever wrongs I commit will be forgiven. So it just leaves you with believers who are confident that non-believers will be punished, even though it does not concern them.