Can I get a smart thermostat for my oil boiler?

Roen

Hi lads,

My oil boiler is the Grant euro flame 50/90. According to Netatmo and Nest neither my boiler nor the wired controls are compatible.

Anyone with this boiler using something 'smart' to control their heating?
The existing control is a Grasslin Towerchron QE1.
Pic of wiring attached.
Cheers!
R.

d31b0y

Yeah, you can. The Netatmo is just a switch.
I have it installed on my OFCH (which wasn't compatible according to their website) in place of a 24 hour clock.
Take a look at the last few pages of the Netatmo thread that Davy just moved in from Bargain Alerts

Graham

d31b0y wrote: »

Yeah, you can. The Netatmo is just a switch.
I have it installed on my OFCH (which wasn't compatible according to their website) in place of a 24 hour clock.

+1

We have 2 oil boilers (one Grant), one controlled by a Nest, the other controlled by a Hive.

Stoner

I've had X10 switches and lightwaverf switches that as the guys above said they were interchangeable with a 24hour time clock.

The x10 is just a switch

The lightwaverf unit is a switch with a boost button, but you also need the programmable timer unit. This is a wireless stat so it's good as you can add a stat that you can place where ever you want.

The timer is linked the wired in switch

They work as standalone units but for internet connectivity you need the lightwaverf hub

That's about 90 euro. But once you have it you can add TVRs to the biggest rads in the house and they add another stat and will keep the rooms at the temp you want them and can shut downstairs rads off at night or upstairs rads off during the day.

Roen

d31b0y wrote: »

Yeah, you can. The Netatmo is just a switch.
I have it installed on my OFCH (which wasn't compatible according to their website) in place of a 24 hour clock.
Take a look at the last few pages of the Netatmo thread that Davy just moved in from Bargain Alerts

Cheers d31b0y,
I had a quick look there, seems like the Netatmo is doable. Would have to double check the wiring though.

Graham wrote: »

+1

We have 2 oil boilers (one Grant), one controlled by a Nest, the other controlled by a Hive.

Brill, I know some Grant boilers are compatible with the Nest, is yours the Euroflame do you know?

Stoner wrote: »

I've had X10 switches and lightwaverf switches that as the guys above said they were interchangeable with a 24hour time clock.

The lightwaverf unit is a switch with a boost button, but you also need the programmable timer unit. This is a wireless stat so it's good as you can add a stat that you can place where ever you want.


But once you have it you can add TVRs to the biggest rads in the house and they add another stat and will keep the rooms at the temp you want them and can shut downstairs rads off at night or upstairs rads off during the day.

Must check those out, I had read that the TRVs can be a bit on the noisy side.

Graham

Roen wrote: »

Brill, I know some Grant boilers are compatible with the Nest, is yours the Euroflame do you know?

IIRC it's a Grant Vortex but I can't imagine there would be a problem connecting any of the range.

FWIW, I'd go for Hive over Nest. We've had the Next for just over 2 years and have been completely underwhelmed with it. They should rename the 'learning' feature to the 'turn your heating on/off completely randomly' feature.

Roen

Graham wrote: »

IIRC it's a Grant Vortex but I can't imagine there would be a problem connecting any of the range.

FWIW, I'd go for Hive over Nest. We've had the Next for just over 2 years and have been completely underwhelmed with it. They should rename the 'learning' feature to the 'turn your heating on/off completely randomly' feature.

Cheers,

So Hive is the better of the two from your experience.

Stoner

Roen wrote:

Must check those out, I had read that the TRVs can be a bit on the noisy side.

They are . Mine were recalled and the firmware upgrade sorted some of the noise out. They are quieter now buy you still hear a grinding sound from them as they turn on and off

Stoner

Roen wrote:

So Hive is the better of the two from your experience.

I'd agree here too. I've nest smoke detectors but I wouldn't have it on the heating side

Heatmeiser are worth a look too


https://www.heatmiser.com/en/

Graham

Roen wrote: »

Cheers,

So Hive is the better of the two from your experience.

Much

Roen

Cool,

One thing though regarding the Hive, does it expose anything locally you can scrape via another tool?
Ideally I'd like to have everything under a Home Assistant install.

Roen

Yup looks like you can pull stuff out of it.

http://www.smartofthehome.com/2016/03/hive-api-v5/
http://www.smartofthehome.com/2016/05/hive-rest-api-v6/

Roen

Graham wrote: »

Much

Sorry for all the questions, did you self install or get an engineer out?
It's £179 (€202) on Amazon at the mo, versus €299 for device plus install from the Hive Ireland store. Bones of €100 to be saved by buying the kit from the UK and DIY installing it.

Graham

Roen wrote: »

Sorry for all the questions, did you self install or get an engineer out?
It's £179 (€202) on Amazon at the mo, versus €299 for device plus install from the Hive Ireland store. Bones of €100 to be saved by buying the kit from the UK and DIY installing it.

Purchased from Amazon without the install, local sparky did the install in a few minutes.

I'd be interested in anyone's experiences extracting data from hive, would be interesting to tie up with my oil usage data from Olive.

drunkmonkey

I've a grant boiler and went with the Electric Ireland offer today of 99e for the nest 3 installed, also went for a second nest as after zoning out upstairs from downstairs. Second one was an extra 270 but they done some tweaking with my bill to take the sting out of it.

There using version 3 of the Nest and the reviews are very positive from what I can see over the older ones. 5yr warranty. hard to pass.

Graham

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I've a grant boiler and went with the Electric Ireland offer today of 99e for the nest 3 installed, also went for a second nest as after zoning out upstairs from downstairs. Second one was an extra 270 but they done some tweaking with my bill to take the sting out of it.

There using version 3 of the Nest and the reviews are very positive from what I can see over the older ones. 5yr warranty. hard to pass.

Would be interested in hearing how you get on with the learning functions dm.

Roen

Olive. Another gadget I didn't know I wanted. I assume that the oil ordering functionality only works in the UK?

drunkmonkey

Graham wrote: »

Would be interested in hearing how you get on with the learning functions dm.

Getting installed next week will let you know, hoping the Home/Away assist works well would be pretty handy..

Graham

Roen wrote: »

Olive. Another gadget I didn't know I wanted. I assume that the oil ordering functionality only works in the UK?

Afraid so. The cost of oil used is also in local GBP pricing and serves as a constant reminder how expensive oil is here.

Graham

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Getting installed next week will let you know, hoping the Home/Away assist works well would be pretty handy..

Home/away works very well since they switched to using geolocation on phones rather than presence detection on the stat.

drunkmonkey

Do you have the nest monitor or anything else, the review I read said it works better with them.
I'm not sure where to place the thermostats so i can detect nobody around the quickest.

mudabi

Using Nest thermostat for 10 months now, oil boiler. Very happy with it. Our heating is on a lot less than it was when we had a mechanical timer but the house is now toasty all of the time. Well worth the investment in our experience.

Graham

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Do you have the nest monitor or anything else, the review I read said it works better with them.
I'm not sure where to place the thermostats so i can detect nobody around the quickest.

Just the stat, was tempted to get the smoke alarms but the early teething problems they had put me off. Would have been interested in the cams apart from the ongoing subscriptions.

We have the stat on a stand in the sitting room as that's the room we'd like to base the comfort levels.

Roen

Graham wrote: »

Afraid so. The cost of oil used is also in local GBP pricing and serves as a constant reminder how expensive oil is here.

Grand,

So is it just for monitoring usage? Would it alert say if the level suddenly dropped, as in a theft scenario?

Graham

Roen wrote: »

Grand,

So is it just for monitoring usage? Would it alert say if the level suddenly dropped, as in a theft scenario?

It apparently alerts you if there's a sudden drop in oil levels but it's not a feature I've tested :pac:. I'm not sure how quickly it would alert either so there's a possibility you'd only find out that you'd already been robbed.

We have 2 Arlo cameras covering the remote tank/boiler which gives us a little more peace of mind with the added indirect benefit of supporting the Duracell share price

drunkmonkey

The nest camera looks nifty for monitoring, not sure about the oilve gadget, 120 quid gets you good bit of oil these days.

Graham

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The nest camera looks nifty for monitoring

IIRC the Nest has an ongoing subscription, one of the reasons we opted for Arlo. Battery operated cameras (Arlo) are a mixed blessing. Quick to install but can be expensive to run (mixed results so far).

drunkmonkey wrote: »

not sure about the oilve gadget, 120 quid gets you good bit of oil these days.

We needed the remote monitoring ability so it was either the Olive or the Apollo with a SIM/Ongoing subscription and 48hr update cycles.

Roen

Actually lads,

Would anyone have any input into the wiring here. I popped off the Towerchron QE1



I see two neutrals, no idea where they are going though, one from the board and one to the boiler?
Two lives, one to L and one to 4.
The one from L is looped to 3. I presume 3 powers the Towerchron timer unit on the wall that I popped off.
4 goes to the boiler I am guessing.

I'm reluctant to make that final jump and buy just in case I can't use it.
I sent the same photo to the Hive support guys. No answer as of yet.

Thanks,
R.

d31b0y

Disclaimer; I am no electrician and have no idea about voltages the cables can take. I contemplated not posting this, so I would wait for definitive confirmation before doing this.

If 4 definitely goes to the boiler then the netatmo wiring would be;

Black cable to 4
Blue to N
Brown and gray to L

You can get rid of the loop to 3 altogether to make space but remember you will have to put it back if you want to go back to the old timer. Then just slap the timer you have back on top and leave it in the off position. A simple and easy way to keep it neat and tidy.

Roen

d31b0y wrote: »

Disclaimer; I am no electrician and have no idea about voltages the cables can take. I contemplated not posting this, so I would wait for definitive confirmation before doing this.

If 4 definitely goes to the boiler then the netatmo wiring would be;

Ah, I mistyped that post. I am actually not sure, I am guessing!
Apologies.

d31b0y

It's a pretty reasonable guess in fairness.

bk

Graham wrote: »

We have 2 Arlo cameras covering the remote tank/boiler which gives us a little more peace of mind with the added indirect benefit of supporting the Duracell share price

Might I suggest you get long life NiMH rechargeable "ready to go/precharged" batteries and charger.

These batteries have gotten seriously good since the crappy rechargeable batteries of the past. They basically use the same tech as the battery in your phone and laptop, just in AA and AAA size and they have come down to very reasonable prices now.

They also benefit in that they won't leak like Duracells, thus potentially destroying your expensive device. I've now thrown out all Duracells and use these exclusively.

If you are in Dublin, Ikea has very good ones at a very good price. They are actually just Ikea branded Eneloops made by Panasonic, which are by far the best battery on the market. Ikea's battery chargers are also very good and reasonably priced.

Roen

Right so Hive support got back and wouldn't commit either way. Get an engineer out and have him decide was their line on it.

Feck it, there's one way to find out for sure. Pay day can't come quick enough.

2011

Roen wrote: »

Actually lads,

Would anyone have any input into the wiring here. I popped off the Towerchron QE1



I see two neutrals, no idea where they are going though, one from the board and one to the boiler?
Two lives, one to L and one to 4.
The one from L is looped to 3. I presume 3 powers the Towerchron timer unit on the wall that I popped off.
4 goes to the boiler I am guessing.

I'm reluctant to make that final jump and buy just in case I can't use it.
I sent the same photo to the Hive support guys. No answer as of yet.

Thanks,
R.

I am not familiar with this particular brand, so this is an educated guess from installing many similar time switches over the years.

Assuming that this is wired correctly / normally:

● Terminal N cable 1, blue: Neutral from the distribution board which powers the timer.

● Terminal N cable 2, blue: Neutral from the timer to the boiler.

● Terminal L cable 1, brown: Phase (live) from the distribution board to power the timer.

● Terminal L cable 2, brown: Phase to the timer switch, terminal 3. When the timer switches on it will connect the supply from terminal 3 to terminal 4. When the timer switches off terminal 3 will no longer be electrically connected to terminal 4.

● Terminal 4, brown cable: Switched live output to boiler. When the timer switches on this will become live switching the boiler on.

I would expect terminals 3 & 4 to be a "dry contact". This means that I could use this timer to switch a different voltage (other than mains). So instead of looping from L to 3 with a mains voltage supply I could connect 24 VDC to 3 and then when the switch activates 24 VDC would appear on terminal 4.

I hope this make sense

adam88

Lads I'm a complete newbie to this and sorry to hog this post.

Anyway. 3 bed bungalow. Zoned. Living space, bedrooms and water. What I want is a unit that I can use on my phone to turn on when I'm on my way home and set timing schedules. The working of the hive don't interest me as I do shift work and my work is all over the place.

Also I'd like something that i could link into an app and use other home automation stuff like philips hue all from the one app

Roen

2011 wrote: »

I am not familiar with this particular brand, so this is an educated guess from installing many similar time switches over the years.

Assuming that this is wired correctly / normally:

● Terminal N cable 1, blue: Neutral from the distribution board which powers the timer.

● Terminal N cable 2, blue: Neutral from the timer to the boiler.

● Terminal L cable 1, brown: Phase (live) from the distribution board to power the timer.

● Terminal L cable 2, brown: Phase to the timer switch, terminal 3. When the timer switches on it will connect the supply from terminal 3 to terminal 4. When the timer switches off terminal 3 will no longer be electrically connected to terminal 4.

● Terminal 4, brown cable: Switched live output to boiler. When the timer switches on this will become live switching the boiler on.

I would expect terminals 3 & 4 to be a "dry contact". This means that I could use this timer to switch a different voltage (other than mains). So instead of looping from L to 3 with a mains voltage supply I could connect 24 VDC to 3 and then when the switch activates 24 VDC would appear on terminal 4.

I hope this make sense

It does indeed. Many thanks 2011. I appreciate the detailed reply!

I'm going to chance the Hive on the next pay day. Feck it.

However just to complicate things I have discovered a motorised valve in the hot press , attached to a switch that just heats water only, no radiators.

So it looks like I have two zones, heat and water.

So here's the rub, do I get the Hive for heating only or do I get the heat and water one?

This is a 2006 house that I have just moved in to with my fiancée so I am still discovering how things are laid out. There's a bit more of tracing back of cables and pipes to be done I think!
Thanks once more.
R.

punisher5112

Roen wrote: »

It does indeed. Many thanks 2011. I appreciate the detailed reply!

I'm going to chance the Hive on the next pay day. Feck it.

However just to complicate things I have discovered a motorised valve in the hot press , attached to a switch that just heats water only, no radiators.

So it looks like I have two zones, heat and water.

So here's the rub, do I get the Hive for heating only or do I get the heat and water one?

This is a 2006 house that I have just moved in to with my fiancée so I am still discovering how things are laid out. There's a bit more of tracing back of cables and pipes to be done I think!
Thanks once more.
R.

You would need a dual zone device or you wouldn't have 2 zones.

Nest or similar will work.

The netatamo is great for single zone or you could double up and get 2 but that would be better suited if you wanted upstairs and downstairs separate.

Teyla Emmagan

If you wait till Feb you can get a free Hive from Bord Gains if you sign up to a dual fuel contract with them.

Roen

adam88 wrote: »

Lads I'm a complete newbie to this and sorry to hog this post.

Anyway. 3 bed bungalow. Zoned. Living space, bedrooms and water. What I want is a unit that I can use on my phone to turn on when I'm on my way home and set timing schedules. The working of the hive don't interest me as I do shift work and my work is all over the place.

Also I'd like something that i could link into an app and use other home automation stuff like philips hue all from the one app

I think any of the Nest/Netatmo/Tado/Climote/Hive/HeatMiser would suit you. They all provide app control and allow time scheduling.
But bear in mind some boilers are not compatible with some of these systems. So it will depend on what particular set up you have at home, also factor in running costs, I think Climote uses a subscription service or a SIM card you have to top up.

Can't help on an app to have them all in once place, maybe a Samsung Smartthings hub? I'm sure someone will have more knowledge and will inform you sooner or later here.

Roen

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

If you wait till Feb you can get a free Hive from Bord Gains if you sign up to a dual fuel contract with them.

I called them yesterday and they don't install them on oil boilers at the mo, just gas according to the guy on the phone.
Not sure when that will change though.
Where did you see that offer can I ask?

Roen

punisher5112 wrote: »

You would need a dual zone device or you wouldn't have 2 zones.

Nest or similar will work.

The netatamo is great for single zone or you could double up and get 2 but that would be better suited if you wanted upstairs and downstairs separate.

This is the lad I was thinking of getting. Heat + Water
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B011B3J6B8/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

2011

Roen wrote: »

I called them yesterday and they don't install them on oil boilers at the mo, just gas according to the guy on the phone.
Not sure when that will change though.
Where did you see that offer can I ask?

From both an electrical and controls perspective it does not matter if the boiler gas or oil. Any competent electrician should be able to install this for you.

If you want to heat domestic hot water separately from the radiators (which would be best and would save you money) then you require a "2 channel" device. This is effectively 2 timed switches in one unit that can be programmed and switched independently.

rolion

Hi,
The best device /solution that allows splitting your home one zone heating in to single, individually and central control based is the Honeywell Evohome.
I have it and is working wonderful...

Roen

I think I remember talking to you about this in the Plumbing and Heating forum.
It is certainly by far the most attractive for me. Having only one zone for heating isn't great.
However my situation has now changed and there's a baby on the way. I could see those valves being made ****e of inside a year or two.
That said there's a vandal/tamper cover you can get for the TRVs isn't there?

Ultimately the long and short of it is that while it was once in my budget I might struggle to get such an expensive system past the war dept.

The 8 TRV value pack is about €773 at the moment. We need another Brexit to make Sterling slump further I think.

Graham

Roen wrote: »

Ultimately the long and short of it is that while it was once in my budget I might struggle to get such an expensive system past the war dept.

The 8 TRV value pack is about €773 at the moment. We need another Brexit to make Sterling slump further I think.

I just spat coffee everywhere. Thanks for brightening up a dull Monday morning. :pac:

rolion

Roen wrote: »

The 8 TRV value pack is about €773 at the moment. We need another Brexit to make Sterling slump further I think.

You dont have to splash money on the whole kit initially.
You can buy the controller and a single radiator valve and keep upscalling based on,well ... the sterling to euro parity !

lolliedog

Can someone explain how smart thermostats work with dump thermostatic rad valves. Wouldn't they have to be set to the same temp otherwise there is conflict.

bk

lolliedog wrote: »

Can someone explain how smart thermostats work with dump thermostatic rad valves. Wouldn't they have to be set to the same temp otherwise there is conflict.

In the room that has the smart thermostat, then yes, the TRV needs to be set to max temperature. In the other rooms, you could set the TRV's lower if you want to keep those unused rooms at a lower temperature.

BTW Netamto have just launched smart TRV's that can be controlled by the Thermostat and apps.

cerastes

Roen wrote: »

I think I remember talking to you about this in the Plumbing and Heating forum.
It is certainly by far the most attractive for me. Having only one zone for heating isn't great.
However my situation has now changed and there's a baby on the way. I could see those valves being made ****e of inside a year or two.
That said there's a vandal/tamper cover you can get for the TRVs isn't there?

Ultimately the long and short of it is that while it was once in my budget I might struggle to get such an expensive system past the war dept.

The 8 TRV value pack is about €773 at the moment. We need another Brexit to make Sterling slump further I think.

I know probably better in the heating and plumbing forum but was following this thread, is it possible to buy the the trv valves only? I have some spare trv heads I wanted to use but not the valves or return fitting, which I wanted to get so they matched the trv valve but also as some of the plastic blank covers are missing.

Roen

cerastes wrote: »

I know probably better in the heating and plumbing forum but was following this thread, is it possible to buy the the trv valves only? I have some spare trv heads I wanted to use but not the valves or return fitting, which I wanted to get so they matched the trv valve but also as some of the plastic blank covers are missing.

I think so, if you are referring to the part that is plumbed to the rad.

https://theevohomeshop.co.uk/radiator-valve-bodies/47-honeywell-valencia-v120-15a-manual-radiator-valve-15mm-angled.html

The TRV head then just screws down on to this. You could put your TRV head on to this, then if you ever upgraded you could pop off your old TRV heads and stick on one of the motorised guys.

Not sure about return fittings to be honest!

Roen

Graham wrote: »

I just spat coffee everywhere. Thanks for brightening up a dull Monday morning. :pac:

Ha, only seeing this now. You're welcome

Well I've pulled the trigger and got the Hive. So now, I'm having hassle registering for an account. If I try use a UK postcode via the app it just tells me that my basket is empty.
The Irish site says that they'll email details after buying it and the UK site doesn't seem to have an option to register.

How did you get around this Graham?