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Why does Ireland not adopt automated enforcement?

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    #32
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    Red light cameras are being tried at some Luas junctions.
    In general I would guess that the government don't want to do it for fear of criticism and lobbying.

    Cameras catching tax/insurance seems unlikely at the moment as AFAIK, the gardai ran into hurdles to do with data protection and access to databaseswhen they tried to introduce readers in squad cars - so the same should apply to fixed cameras. I expect the law will be changed here but there doesn't seem to be much movement.

    Its already in use in marked and unmarked cats here now.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #33
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Its already in use in marked and unmarked cats here now.
    Really? Didn't think it had gone ahead.

    I'm not too keen on giving cats my info about me though, you can't trust them, especially the unmarked ones.


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    #34
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Your comment is a complete contradiction - if we had a stazi-like state, then, according to you, we would already have automated enforcement. We don't, so you aren't answering the question of why we don't have it.

    We don't have a Stasi state because most people don't want one. Visible cameras catching minor lawbreaking would be an obvious sign of the Stasi. We don't have automatic detection of petty crimes because people don't want it
    What's hard to understand?


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    #35
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    We don't have a Stasi state because most people don't want one. Visible cameras catching minor lawbreaking would be an obvious sign of the Stasi. We don't have automatic detection of petty crimes because people don't want it
    What's hard to understand?

    Did I claim anything was hard to understand? Your reply was very easy to understand and unfortunately write off as paranoid.

    I'd be curious about the idea that people don't want camera enforcement of bus lanes/red lights, because I don't believe that's accurate at all. Speed limits, yeah, I'll grant you that one, but the other two are generally something that most people get annoyed when they see happening.

    "Stasi like" as you originally worded it would suggest an invasive surveillance, without cause, for the purposes of suppressing political dissent.

    It's a massive leap to that from a fixed, highly visible camera, in a public area, that enforces a law that already exists.


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    #36
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    galwaytt wrote: »
    No its not. Automatic 'enforcement ' has led to an increase in the UK of the numbers of people no longer pulling over for, say, ambulances and fire engines as by pulling over they're getting ticketed and points for infringement of bus lanes, stop lines, cycle lanes etc.

    I'm sure this is easily an issue that could be ironed out in a number of ways (one off the top of my head - the enforcement cameras could simply detect when someone violates over a stretch of road, not a single encroachment, much like the average speed cameras in use in lots of places) but as an alternative, should we have Garda cars patrolling the bus lanes and pulling over infringers in the lanes? Or, would you simply suggest that we give up on enforcement completely?

    Also - since when do Irish drivers pull over for emergency vehicles - or more specifically, in those high traffic areas where bus lanes are prevalent? If anything, a well-enforced bus lane might actually improve access for emergency vehicles as they'd be able to use it!


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    #37
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Did I claim anything was hard to understand? Your reply was very easy to understand and unfortunately write off as paranoid.

    I'd be curious about the idea that people don't want camera enforcement of bus lanes/red lights, because I don't believe that's accurate at all.
    have you any evidence to back up a majority of people in Ireland want automatic cameras to record them travelling along bus lanes or through traffic lights?
    MJohnston wrote: »
    "Stasi like" as you originally worded it would suggest an invasive surveillance, without cause, for the purposes of suppressing political dissent.

    It's a massive leap to that from a fixed, highly visible camera, in a public area, that enforces a law that already exists.
    how can a camera enforce any law? It could possibly be used to capture evidence of lawbreaking

    Recording and capturing people carrying on with their daily lives without suspicion of serious crime is oppression, and without cause.
    How would an automated camera not capture innocent people?


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    #38
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭howiya


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    have you any evidence to back up a majority of people in Ireland want automatic cameras to record them travelling along bus lanes or through traffic lights?
    how can a camera enforce any law? It could possibly be used to capture evidence of lawbreaking

    Recording and capturing people carrying on with their daily lives without suspicion of serious crime is oppression, and without cause.
    How would an automated camera not capture innocent people?

    Do you avoid shops/buses etc that have CCTV?


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    #39
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭howiya


    There were two Gardaí standing at the College Green bus gate earlier. This is something that could easily be punished with the use of cameras.

    Instead the Gardai today were stopping cars going through it rather than standing the other side and issuing fines to motorists.

    Such a waste of the scarce Garda resources we are constantly hearing about


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    #40
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,165 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    howiya wrote: »
    There were two Gardaí standing at the College Green bus gate earlier. This is something that could easily be punished with the use of cameras.

    Instead the Gardai today were stopping cars going through it rather than standing the other side and issuing fines to motorists.

    Such a waste of the scarce Garda resources we are constantly hearing about

    Yeah, but they get the OT.


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    #41
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,165 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    One example of why its not done, we cant run IT systems to save our sausage in this state (Brits manage it fine).

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0503/698472-gardai-database/
    €6m Garda IT system pulled due to database errors

    Gardaí have been forced to suspend a key part of one of their road traffic enforcement IT systems.

    The move comes after errors in a database led to hundreds of thousands of drivers being wrongly identified as having failed to pay their car insurance.

    The database is part of the Automatic Number Plate Recognition system, or ANPR, which the force acquired for an estimated €6 million.

    Documents seen by RTÉ's This week illustrate that the database was "pulled" last year after flaws in the data led to more than one million "hits" for non-payment of motor insurance.

    Problems with the garda system emerged in notes of a meeting between gardaí and officials at the Departments of Transport and Justice.

    The handwritten note recorded by a Department of Transport senior official appears to blame motor insurance companies for failing to update the database properly.

    It says that there was an "issue with insurance companies not notify [sic] of part payment of cover. Database had to be pulled - members not managing data properly. Getting 1.1 million hits for no insurance - this is not logical".

    The latest figures from the Central Statistics Office show there are around 2.4 million licensed vehicles in the State.

    This means that the number of hits for non-payment of insurance on the garda IT system was almost half the entire number of vehicles on Irish roads.


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    #42
    NomadicGray
    Registered Users Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭NomadicGray


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    The line is already drawn, the council have gone to the trouble of doing that for you; don't cross it, simple.

    Its conceivable you would have to cross the line to avoid debris or other objects not picked up by the camera.
    Use your brain.


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    #43
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    ED E wrote: »
    One example of why its not done, we cant run IT systems to save our sausage in this state (Brits manage it fine).

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0503/698472-gardai-database/

    While I don't disagree with your general point about poor IT implementation here, this is a specific case of the Irish Insurance industry, a more useless bunch of cowboys it would be hard to find an equal to in a third world junta.

    An industry that cries foul at all the fraud being committed that cannot even provide AGS with an up to date list of their issued policies. As long as they can load all the costs onto the honest policyholder they really don't give a flying fukk.

    It's worth noting that the Tax and NCT database is in operation on AGS ANPR, it is just the more important Insurance data missing.


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    #44
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    have you any evidence to back up a majority of people in Ireland want automatic cameras to record them travelling along bus lanes or through traffic lights?
    you offered the claim first that the opposite is the case; with no evidence stated. but it's the counter-claim which needs to be backed up by evidence?


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    #45
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    If Mrs Dravokivich, Dravokivich jnr, Dravokivich snr, Dravokivich's lodger or anyone else at Dravokivich's home signs for it then Dravokivich showing up to the court claiming they never received it is a liar and a chancer and should be done for perjury as well as whatever the original fine was for.

    It was a genuine question. I actually almost missed out on something like that because of no one being around to receive the registered letter. I was lucky enough to be able to arrange someone to collect the letter from the depot. If I couldn't of done that, I genuinely wouldn't of known about it.


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    #46
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    An industry that cries foul at all the fraud being committed that cannot even provide AGS with an up to date list of their issued policies. As long as they can load all the costs onto the honest policyholder they really don't give a flying fukk.
    my MIL was involved in a non-accident where another motorist claimed she'd hit her. the inspector sent out by the insurance company told my FIL that he was happy no collision had occured, my MIL's car was completely undamaged.
    the insurance company paid out on the claim, and the other motorist has followed up with a personal claim against my MIL for whiplash (or some other injury). so my MIL will not be able to change insurance companies for several years now while that works its way through the legal system.


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    #47
    stanley1989
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭stanley1989


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    wouldn't work, registered letters to my home arrive through the door , the postman signs for them himself...he told me he does!


    I'd go crazy who does he think he is !
    Any registered letters that land to my address are returned to sender my post man doesn't even ask anymore he knows I don't want them


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    #48
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    have you any evidence to back up a majority of people in Ireland want automatic cameras to record them travelling along bus lanes or through traffic lights?

    The burden of proof is on you, as you claimed "We don't have automatic detection of petty crimes because people don't want it" without any evidence. I simply stated that I don't believe that's true.
    how can a camera enforce any law? It could possibly be used to capture evidence of lawbreaking

    This is a crazy statement. Speed cameras have systems that trigger a photo capture upon detection of a speed limit violation. Red light cameras are activated when a red light is present and snap a photo of any vehicle crossing a predetermined, and visible line. Bus lane cameras correlate license plates recorded in bus lanes with a simple database of valid users (ie. buses and registered taxis) and snap a photo when the vehicle is not allowed to be there.
    Recording and capturing people carrying on with their daily lives without suspicion of serious crime is oppression, and without cause.
    How would an automated camera not capture innocent people?

    Not trying to offend, but I think you need to go an read up on how these things actually work, because it seems like you don't understand. All the automated cameras have a restricted field of view, a restricted area of operation in that FOV, and restricted operational commands. There isn't some operator sitting in a control room somewhere monitoring the feed. There isn't a permanent, continuous feed of video footage.


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    #49
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    howiya wrote: »
    Do you avoid shops/buses etc that have CCTV?

    And taxis, public places, the centre of most towns in Ireland, anyone that has a dashcam, tourists, people taking selfies etc.?

    Whether you like it or not, when you're in a public place you're on camera. No one has an issue with this.

    Speed cameras only take a snapshot of your license plate when you break a limit. The system is automated.
    Take the tin foil hat off.


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    #50
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the important distinction between a shop CCTV and a well-designed red light system is that a shop CCTV will record you even if you behave perfectly legally.
    the recording should only happen at a red light camera if you actually trigger it.


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