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Why does Ireland not adopt automated enforcement?

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  • 11-10-2016 3:08pm
    #1
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭✭


    We rely upon a silly amount of manual enforcement for easily automated issues, why is this?

    From a traffic perspective, we should easily be able to automate:
    + Red light violations
    + Speed limit violations
    + Bus lane violations

    Of those three, I see red light cameras the most, but most of the speed cameras I've seen in the past have gone away for whatever reason. Bus lane enforcement is essentially non-existent and probably the most egregious out of these - GDS cannot possibly hope to do a good job via manual enforcement due to the nature of how it has to be enforced (ie. how does a police car monitor a bus lane without blocking that bus lane? Or without just doing periodic passes over a bus lane, allowing a huge amount of violation to go unpunished?) and due to how vast Dublin's bus lane network is. If you're ever sat on the N4 outbound at rush hour, you'll know how annoying it is to see dozens of private cars zooming up the bus lane, with maybe 1 police car per half hour at best in sight.

    From a 'licensing' perspective, we should also be to automate the enforcement of motor tax and insurance, and indeed get very quickly to the point where we don't need to clutter our windscreens with dozens of stickers (Northern Ireland just did this a couple of years ago very successfully).

    So, perhaps the two categories here are different questions, but why don't we automatically enforce these things?


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    #2
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    be careful what you wish for, by all accounts many Councils in the UK use enforcement cameras as a means to raise revenue and issue fines for the slightest infringement....one wheel in a bus lane for instance.


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    #3
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    To avoid stazi-like qualities of the state.


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    #4
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    To avoid stazi-like qualities of the state.

    Sorry, but that's absolute nonsense.


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    #5
    paddyland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 932 ✭✭✭paddyland


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    be careful what you wish for, by all accounts many Councils in the UK use enforcement cameras as a means to raise revenue and issue fines for the slightest infringement....one wheel in a bus lane for instance.
    I would happily fine people who drive or stop with one wheel in a bus lane. No need for it, just plain ignorance.


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    #6
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Sorry, but that's absolute nonsense.

    You might be cool with the cops knowing everywhere and when you drive, but most people aren't.


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    #7
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    You might be cool with the cops knowing everywhere and when you drive, but most people aren't.

    Your comment is a complete contradiction - if we had a stazi-like state, then, according to you, we would already have automated enforcement. We don't, so you aren't answering the question of why we don't have it.


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    #8
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    MJohnston wrote: »
    From a traffic perspective, we should easily be able to automate:
    + Red light violations
    + Speed limit violations
    + Bus lane violations

    This is a great idea. With the current state of AGS these sort of offenses are going unnoticed. This is were investment should be going...automation! With the amount of fines this would generate I'm sure it would not be too long before the investment was returned. Not to mention how much more efficient drivers will become after a few fines/points.


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    #9
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,345 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Putting cameras all over the place would achieve very little, beyond penalising honest and otherwise law-abiding citizens while doing nothing for the perjurers who troop into court every day, swear that they never got the ticket in the post and have their cases dismissed as witnessed by this poster when he visited the courts recently .....
    davie.j.brady wrote: »
    Hello, a while ago I was stopped for talking on the phone while driving and got a ticket. I completely forgot all about it and it went out of my head. Then I get a letter that I have to go to court about the ticket. The case was during the week and I have to say I was terrified about what would happen. I never got a ticket before. There were a few cases before mine. One was a lady who lost her ticket and couldn’t find it. Another one was an old lady who drove in a bus lane because she was running late. The Judge dismissed both of their cases, so I thought just be honest about what happened and the truth will set me free. When my ticket was called, I explained that I was moving house and I honestly just forgot about it. So the judge fined me 100euros and I have penalty points on my license. I thought this was a bit unfair as the other tickets were dismissed. I listened to a few other cases before I left and the judge dismissed every single time a person said that they never got a ticket in the post.<<Mod deletion>> One guy left the court with a big grin on his face. I was furious when I left the court.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101286211&postcount=1


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    #10
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    coylemj wrote: »
    Putting cameras all over the place would achieve very little, beyond penalising honest and otherwise law-abiding citizens while doing nothing for the perjurers who troop into court every day, swear that they never got the ticket in the post and have their cases dismissed as witnessed by this poster when he visited the courts recently .....



    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101286211&postcount=1

    Imagine if there was some way of issuing letters where the recipient has to acknowledge receiving it?


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    #11
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    coylemj wrote: »
    Putting cameras all over the place would achieve very little, beyond penalising honest and otherwise law-abiding citizens while doing nothing for the perjurers who troop into court every day, swear that they never got the ticket in the post and have their cases dismissed as witnessed by this poster when he visited the courts recently .....



    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101286211&postcount=1

    Sounds very much like the poster wasn't law-abiding at all tbf.


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    #12
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    Imagine if there was some way of issuing letters where the recipient has to acknowledge receiving it?

    If you're never home at the time, what does it matter for whoever else signs it?


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    #13
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    coylemj wrote: »
    Putting cameras all over the place would achieve very little, beyond penalising honest and otherwise law-abiding citizens while doing nothing for the perjurers who troop into court every day, swear that they never got the ticket in the post and have their cases dismissed as witnessed by this poster when he visited the courts recently .....

    Au contraire...it would achieve quite a lot. I dont know how anyone can be an honest law abiding citizen if they are speeding...breaking red lights...using bus/cycle lanes...driving without tax/insurance. These are black or white offences. They either broke the law or didn't.

    All of these offences can be picked up through automation.


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    #14
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    To avoid stazi-like qualities of the state.

    I don't think the stazi ever had automated traffic fines.

    RE the cops knowing your every move: They already do. Plenty of cameras around cities and towns, just not connected to a fining system. If they wanted to track you, they could.


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    #15
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    Imagine if there was some way of issuing letters where the recipient has to acknowledge receiving it?

    Like a...registered letter...


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    #16
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,345 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Au contraire...it would achieve quite a lot. I dont know how anyone can be an honest law abiding citizen if they are speeding...breaking red lights...using bus/cycle lanes...driving without tax/insurance. These are black or white offences. They either broke the law or didn't.

    I referred to people who are 'otherwise' law-abiding, they may fall foul of the law once in a while (nobody's perfect) but as with the poster I quoted, they 'fess up and admit their guilt when they are caught.

    Since you appear to have missed my point from the lofty heights of your high horse, let me repeat it - cameras will do nothing for the people who currently exploit loopholes, break the law and then compound their criminality by showing up in court, swearing on oath something which they know to be false - that the postman never deliver the ticket.

    Perjury is several notches up the scale from speeding or driving in a bus lane yet for some people, it's a convenient 'get out of jail free' card.


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    #17
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    eeguy wrote: »
    Like a...registered letter...

    ...is the point I was making.

    FFS anyone who wants to ensure an important correspondence can't be claimed to not have been received uses them, why does the legal system not when people (falsely) claiming so is an epidemic?
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    If you're never home at the time, what does it matter for whoever else signs it?

    If Mrs Dravokivich, Dravokivich jnr, Dravokivich snr, Dravokivich's lodger or anyone else at Dravokivich's home signs for it then Dravokivich showing up to the court claiming they never received it is a liar and a chancer and should be done for perjury as well as whatever the original fine was for.


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    #18
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    You might be cool with the cops knowing everywhere and when you drive, but most people aren't.
    who said they'd be recording you if you were law abiding?
    the point of a red light camera is that it should record law breakers, not everyone.


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    #19
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    anyway, based on a spin i just had out collins avenue, up the malahide road and back, automated cameras would fix the budget issues quite quickly. at the ten or so junctions where i could see the lights for crossing traffic, cars or trucks broke red lights (or an amber they could clearly stop at) at every single one. the worst was one junction where four cars ran the lights.


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    #20
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    paddyland wrote: »
    I would happily fine people who drive or stop with one wheel in a bus lane. No need for it, just plain ignorance.

    i mean clip the end of a bus lane by one wheel..... I'd have no problem fining anyone who blocked a bus lane, but where do you draw the line?


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    #21
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    eeguy wrote: »
    Like a...registered letter...

    wouldn't work, registered letters to my home arrive through the door , the postman signs for them himself...he told me he does!


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    #22
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    i mean clip the end of a bus lane by one wheel..... I'd have no problem fining anyone who blocked a bus lane, but where do you draw the line?

    The line is already drawn, the council have gone to the trouble of doing that for you; don't cross it, simple.


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    #23
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #24
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    You might be cool with the cops knowing everywhere and when you drive, but most people aren't.

    That would be a valid point...

    Except it would be illegal anyway under data protection laws.


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    #25
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    There are too many competing negatives in this sentence. I'm having to parse it carefully to understand what you mean.


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    #26
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #27
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The info on motorists won't reach the cops if you're obeying the law. Why would they care? Unless of course your on a watch list, but this can be dealt with by the design of the system.


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    #28
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    The info on motorists won't reach the cops if you're obeying the law. Why would they care? Unless of course your on a watch list, but this can be dealt with by the design of the system.

    Yep. In the same way the M50 toll doesn't report people who have their car declared off the road.


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    #29
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Maybe I was imprecise with my original post, but my original question was basically - why do we currently not have any of these systems? Are GDS opposed to introducing them?


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    #30
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Maybe I was imprecise with my original post, but my original question was basically - why do we currently not have any of these systems? Are GDS opposed to introducing them?

    Red light cameras are being tried at some Luas junctions.
    In general I would guess that the government don't want to do it for fear of criticism and lobbying.

    Cameras catching tax/insurance seems unlikely at the moment as AFAIK, the gardai ran into hurdles to do with data protection and access to databaseswhen they tried to introduce readers in squad cars - so the same should apply to fixed cameras. I expect the law will be changed here but there doesn't seem to be much movement.


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    #31
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Sorry, but that's absolute nonsense.

    No its not. Automatic 'enforcement ' has led to an increase in the UK of the numbers of people no longer pulling over for, say, ambulances and fire engines as by pulling over they're getting ticketed and points for infringement of bus lanes, stop lines, cycle lanes etc.

    It's moronic

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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