Why does Ireland not adopt automated enforcement?

MJohnston

We rely upon a silly amount of manual enforcement for easily automated issues, why is this?

From a traffic perspective, we should easily be able to automate:
+ Red light violations
+ Speed limit violations
+ Bus lane violations

Of those three, I see red light cameras the most, but most of the speed cameras I've seen in the past have gone away for whatever reason. Bus lane enforcement is essentially non-existent and probably the most egregious out of these - GDS cannot possibly hope to do a good job via manual enforcement due to the nature of how it has to be enforced (ie. how does a police car monitor a bus lane without blocking that bus lane? Or without just doing periodic passes over a bus lane, allowing a huge amount of violation to go unpunished?) and due to how vast Dublin's bus lane network is. If you're ever sat on the N4 outbound at rush hour, you'll know how annoying it is to see dozens of private cars zooming up the bus lane, with maybe 1 police car per half hour at best in sight.

From a 'licensing' perspective, we should also be to automate the enforcement of motor tax and insurance, and indeed get very quickly to the point where we don't need to clutter our windscreens with dozens of stickers (Northern Ireland just did this a couple of years ago very successfully).

So, perhaps the two categories here are different questions, but why don't we automatically enforce these things?

savagethegoat

be careful what you wish for, by all accounts many Councils in the UK use enforcement cameras as a means to raise revenue and issue fines for the slightest infringement....one wheel in a bus lane for instance.

Carawaystick

To avoid stazi-like qualities of the state.

MJohnston

Carawaystick wrote: »

To avoid stazi-like qualities of the state.

Sorry, but that's absolute nonsense.

paddyland

savagethegoat wrote: »

be careful what you wish for, by all accounts many Councils in the UK use enforcement cameras as a means to raise revenue and issue fines for the slightest infringement....one wheel in a bus lane for instance.

I would happily fine people who drive or stop with one wheel in a bus lane. No need for it, just plain ignorance.

Carawaystick

MJohnston wrote: »

Sorry, but that's absolute nonsense.

You might be cool with the cops knowing everywhere and when you drive, but most people aren't.

MJohnston

Carawaystick wrote: »

You might be cool with the cops knowing everywhere and when you drive, but most people aren't.

Your comment is a complete contradiction - if we had a stazi-like state, then, according to you, we would already have automated enforcement. We don't, so you aren't answering the question of why we don't have it.

Roadhawk

MJohnston wrote: »

From a traffic perspective, we should easily be able to automate:
+ Red light violations
+ Speed limit violations
+ Bus lane violations

This is a great idea. With the current state of AGS these sort of offenses are going unnoticed. This is were investment should be going...automation! With the amount of fines this would generate I'm sure it would not be too long before the investment was returned. Not to mention how much more efficient drivers will become after a few fines/points.

coylemj

Putting cameras all over the place would achieve very little, beyond penalising honest and otherwise law-abiding citizens while doing nothing for the perjurers who troop into court every day, swear that they never got the ticket in the post and have their cases dismissed as witnessed by this poster when he visited the courts recently .....

davie.j.brady wrote: »

Hello, a while ago I was stopped for talking on the phone while driving and got a ticket. I completely forgot all about it and it went out of my head. Then I get a letter that I have to go to court about the ticket. The case was during the week and I have to say I was terrified about what would happen. I never got a ticket before. There were a few cases before mine. One was a lady who lost her ticket and couldn’t find it. Another one was an old lady who drove in a bus lane because she was running late. The Judge dismissed both of their cases, so I thought just be honest about what happened and the truth will set me free. When my ticket was called, I explained that I was moving house and I honestly just forgot about it. So the judge fined me 100euros and I have penalty points on my license. I thought this was a bit unfair as the other tickets were dismissed. I listened to a few other cases before I left and the judge dismissed every single time a person said that they never got a ticket in the post.<<Mod deletion>> One guy left the court with a big grin on his face. I was furious when I left the court.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101286211&postcount=1

Vic_08

coylemj wrote: »

Putting cameras all over the place would achieve very little, beyond penalising honest and otherwise law-abiding citizens while doing nothing for the perjurers who troop into court every day, swear that they never got the ticket in the post and have their cases dismissed as witnessed by this poster when he visited the courts recently .....



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101286211&postcount=1

Imagine if there was some way of issuing letters where the recipient has to acknowledge receiving it?

MJohnston

coylemj wrote: »

Putting cameras all over the place would achieve very little, beyond penalising honest and otherwise law-abiding citizens while doing nothing for the perjurers who troop into court every day, swear that they never got the ticket in the post and have their cases dismissed as witnessed by this poster when he visited the courts recently .....



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101286211&postcount=1

Sounds very much like the poster wasn't law-abiding at all tbf.

Dravokivich

Vic_08 wrote: »

Imagine if there was some way of issuing letters where the recipient has to acknowledge receiving it?

If you're never home at the time, what does it matter for whoever else signs it?

Roadhawk

coylemj wrote: »

Putting cameras all over the place would achieve very little, beyond penalising honest and otherwise law-abiding citizens while doing nothing for the perjurers who troop into court every day, swear that they never got the ticket in the post and have their cases dismissed as witnessed by this poster when he visited the courts recently .....

Au contraire...it would achieve quite a lot. I dont know how anyone can be an honest law abiding citizen if they are speeding...breaking red lights...using bus/cycle lanes...driving without tax/insurance. These are black or white offences. They either broke the law or didn't.

All of these offences can be picked up through automation.

eeguy

Carawaystick wrote: »

To avoid stazi-like qualities of the state.

I don't think the stazi ever had automated traffic fines.

RE the cops knowing your every move: They already do. Plenty of cameras around cities and towns, just not connected to a fining system. If they wanted to track you, they could.

eeguy

Vic_08 wrote: »

Imagine if there was some way of issuing letters where the recipient has to acknowledge receiving it?

Like a...registered letter...

coylemj

Roadhawk wrote: »

Au contraire...it would achieve quite a lot. I dont know how anyone can be an honest law abiding citizen if they are speeding...breaking red lights...using bus/cycle lanes...driving without tax/insurance. These are black or white offences. They either broke the law or didn't.

I referred to people who are 'otherwise' law-abiding, they may fall foul of the law once in a while (nobody's perfect) but as with the poster I quoted, they 'fess up and admit their guilt when they are caught.

Since you appear to have missed my point from the lofty heights of your high horse, let me repeat it - cameras will do nothing for the people who currently exploit loopholes, break the law and then compound their criminality by showing up in court, swearing on oath something which they know to be false - that the postman never deliver the ticket.

Perjury is several notches up the scale from speeding or driving in a bus lane yet for some people, it's a convenient 'get out of jail free' card.

Vic_08

eeguy wrote: »

Like a...registered letter...

...is the point I was making.

FFS anyone who wants to ensure an important correspondence can't be claimed to not have been received uses them, why does the legal system not when people (falsely) claiming so is an epidemic?

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you're never home at the time, what does it matter for whoever else signs it?

If Mrs Dravokivich, Dravokivich jnr, Dravokivich snr, Dravokivich's lodger or anyone else at Dravokivich's home signs for it then Dravokivich showing up to the court claiming they never received it is a liar and a chancer and should be done for perjury as well as whatever the original fine was for.

magicbastarder

Carawaystick wrote: »

You might be cool with the cops knowing everywhere and when you drive, but most people aren't.

who said they'd be recording you if you were law abiding?
the point of a red light camera is that it should record law breakers, not everyone.

magicbastarder

anyway, based on a spin i just had out collins avenue, up the malahide road and back, automated cameras would fix the budget issues quite quickly. at the ten or so junctions where i could see the lights for crossing traffic, cars or trucks broke red lights (or an amber they could clearly stop at) at every single one. the worst was one junction where four cars ran the lights.

savagethegoat

paddyland wrote: »

I would happily fine people who drive or stop with one wheel in a bus lane. No need for it, just plain ignorance.

i mean clip the end of a bus lane by one wheel..... I'd have no problem fining anyone who blocked a bus lane, but where do you draw the line?

savagethegoat

eeguy wrote: »

Like a...registered letter...

wouldn't work, registered letters to my home arrive through the door , the postman signs for them himself...he told me he does!

Vic_08

savagethegoat wrote: »

i mean clip the end of a bus lane by one wheel..... I'd have no problem fining anyone who blocked a bus lane, but where do you draw the line?

The line is already drawn, the council have gone to the trouble of doing that for you; don't cross it, simple.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

NiallBoo

Carawaystick wrote: »

You might be cool with the cops knowing everywhere and when you drive, but most people aren't.

That would be a valid point...

Except it would be illegal anyway under data protection laws.

magicbastarder

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There are too many competing negatives in this sentence. I'm having to parse it carefully to understand what you mean.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

magicbastarder

The info on motorists won't reach the cops if you're obeying the law. Why would they care? Unless of course your on a watch list, but this can be dealt with by the design of the system.

eeguy

magicbastarder wrote: »

The info on motorists won't reach the cops if you're obeying the law. Why would they care? Unless of course your on a watch list, but this can be dealt with by the design of the system.

Yep. In the same way the M50 toll doesn't report people who have their car declared off the road.

MJohnston

Maybe I was imprecise with my original post, but my original question was basically - why do we currently not have any of these systems? Are GDS opposed to introducing them?

NiallBoo

MJohnston wrote: »

Maybe I was imprecise with my original post, but my original question was basically - why do we currently not have any of these systems? Are GDS opposed to introducing them?

Red light cameras are being tried at some Luas junctions.
In general I would guess that the government don't want to do it for fear of criticism and lobbying.

Cameras catching tax/insurance seems unlikely at the moment as AFAIK, the gardai ran into hurdles to do with data protection and access to databaseswhen they tried to introduce readers in squad cars - so the same should apply to fixed cameras. I expect the law will be changed here but there doesn't seem to be much movement.

galwaytt

MJohnston wrote: »

Sorry, but that's absolute nonsense.

No its not. Automatic 'enforcement ' has led to an increase in the UK of the numbers of people no longer pulling over for, say, ambulances and fire engines as by pulling over they're getting ticketed and points for infringement of bus lanes, stop lines, cycle lanes etc.

It's moronic

galwaytt

NiallBoo wrote: »

Red light cameras are being tried at some Luas junctions.
In general I would guess that the government don't want to do it for fear of criticism and lobbying.

Cameras catching tax/insurance seems unlikely at the moment as AFAIK, the gardai ran into hurdles to do with data protection and access to databaseswhen they tried to introduce readers in squad cars - so the same should apply to fixed cameras. I expect the law will be changed here but there doesn't seem to be much movement.

Its already in use in marked and unmarked cats here now.

NiallBoo

galwaytt wrote: »

Its already in use in marked and unmarked cats here now.

Really? Didn't think it had gone ahead.

I'm not too keen on giving cats my info about me though, you can't trust them, especially the unmarked ones.

Carawaystick

MJohnston wrote: »

Your comment is a complete contradiction - if we had a stazi-like state, then, according to you, we would already have automated enforcement. We don't, so you aren't answering the question of why we don't have it.

We don't have a Stasi state because most people don't want one. Visible cameras catching minor lawbreaking would be an obvious sign of the Stasi. We don't have automatic detection of petty crimes because people don't want it
What's hard to understand?

MJohnston

Carawaystick wrote: »

We don't have a Stasi state because most people don't want one. Visible cameras catching minor lawbreaking would be an obvious sign of the Stasi. We don't have automatic detection of petty crimes because people don't want it
What's hard to understand?

Did I claim anything was hard to understand? Your reply was very easy to understand and unfortunately write off as paranoid.

I'd be curious about the idea that people don't want camera enforcement of bus lanes/red lights, because I don't believe that's accurate at all. Speed limits, yeah, I'll grant you that one, but the other two are generally something that most people get annoyed when they see happening.

"Stasi like" as you originally worded it would suggest an invasive surveillance, without cause, for the purposes of suppressing political dissent.

It's a massive leap to that from a fixed, highly visible camera, in a public area, that enforces a law that already exists.

MJohnston

galwaytt wrote: »

No its not. Automatic 'enforcement ' has led to an increase in the UK of the numbers of people no longer pulling over for, say, ambulances and fire engines as by pulling over they're getting ticketed and points for infringement of bus lanes, stop lines, cycle lanes etc.

I'm sure this is easily an issue that could be ironed out in a number of ways (one off the top of my head - the enforcement cameras could simply detect when someone violates over a stretch of road, not a single encroachment, much like the average speed cameras in use in lots of places) but as an alternative, should we have Garda cars patrolling the bus lanes and pulling over infringers in the lanes? Or, would you simply suggest that we give up on enforcement completely?

Also - since when do Irish drivers pull over for emergency vehicles - or more specifically, in those high traffic areas where bus lanes are prevalent? If anything, a well-enforced bus lane might actually improve access for emergency vehicles as they'd be able to use it!

Carawaystick

MJohnston wrote: »

Did I claim anything was hard to understand? Your reply was very easy to understand and unfortunately write off as paranoid.

I'd be curious about the idea that people don't want camera enforcement of bus lanes/red lights, because I don't believe that's accurate at all.

have you any evidence to back up a majority of people in Ireland want automatic cameras to record them travelling along bus lanes or through traffic lights?

MJohnston wrote: »

"Stasi like" as you originally worded it would suggest an invasive surveillance, without cause, for the purposes of suppressing political dissent.

It's a massive leap to that from a fixed, highly visible camera, in a public area, that enforces a law that already exists.

how can a camera enforce any law? It could possibly be used to capture evidence of lawbreaking

Recording and capturing people carrying on with their daily lives without suspicion of serious crime is oppression, and without cause.
How would an automated camera not capture innocent people?

howiya

Carawaystick wrote: »

have you any evidence to back up a majority of people in Ireland want automatic cameras to record them travelling along bus lanes or through traffic lights?
how can a camera enforce any law? It could possibly be used to capture evidence of lawbreaking

Recording and capturing people carrying on with their daily lives without suspicion of serious crime is oppression, and without cause.
How would an automated camera not capture innocent people?

Do you avoid shops/buses etc that have CCTV?

howiya

There were two Gardaí standing at the College Green bus gate earlier. This is something that could easily be punished with the use of cameras.

Instead the Gardai today were stopping cars going through it rather than standing the other side and issuing fines to motorists.

Such a waste of the scarce Garda resources we are constantly hearing about

ED E

howiya wrote: »

There were two Gardaí standing at the College Green bus gate earlier. This is something that could easily be punished with the use of cameras.

Instead the Gardai today were stopping cars going through it rather than standing the other side and issuing fines to motorists.

Such a waste of the scarce Garda resources we are constantly hearing about

Yeah, but they get the OT.

ED E

One example of why its not done, we cant run IT systems to save our sausage in this state (Brits manage it fine).

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0503/698472-gardai-database/

€6m Garda IT system pulled due to database errors

Gardaí have been forced to suspend a key part of one of their road traffic enforcement IT systems.

The move comes after errors in a database led to hundreds of thousands of drivers being wrongly identified as having failed to pay their car insurance.

The database is part of the Automatic Number Plate Recognition system, or ANPR, which the force acquired for an estimated €6 million.

Documents seen by RTÉ's This week illustrate that the database was "pulled" last year after flaws in the data led to more than one million "hits" for non-payment of motor insurance.

Problems with the garda system emerged in notes of a meeting between gardaí and officials at the Departments of Transport and Justice.

The handwritten note recorded by a Department of Transport senior official appears to blame motor insurance companies for failing to update the database properly.

It says that there was an "issue with insurance companies not notify [sic] of part payment of cover. Database had to be pulled - members not managing data properly. Getting 1.1 million hits for no insurance - this is not logical".

The latest figures from the Central Statistics Office show there are around 2.4 million licensed vehicles in the State.

This means that the number of hits for non-payment of insurance on the garda IT system was almost half the entire number of vehicles on Irish roads.

NomadicGray

Vic_08 wrote: »

The line is already drawn, the council have gone to the trouble of doing that for you; don't cross it, simple.

Its conceivable you would have to cross the line to avoid debris or other objects not picked up by the camera.
Use your brain.

Vic_08

ED E wrote: »

One example of why its not done, we cant run IT systems to save our sausage in this state (Brits manage it fine).

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0503/698472-gardai-database/

While I don't disagree with your general point about poor IT implementation here, this is a specific case of the Irish Insurance industry, a more useless bunch of cowboys it would be hard to find an equal to in a third world junta.

An industry that cries foul at all the fraud being committed that cannot even provide AGS with an up to date list of their issued policies. As long as they can load all the costs onto the honest policyholder they really don't give a flying fukk.

It's worth noting that the Tax and NCT database is in operation on AGS ANPR, it is just the more important Insurance data missing.

magicbastarder

Carawaystick wrote: »

have you any evidence to back up a majority of people in Ireland want automatic cameras to record them travelling along bus lanes or through traffic lights?

you offered the claim first that the opposite is the case; with no evidence stated. but it's the counter-claim which needs to be backed up by evidence?

Dravokivich

Vic_08 wrote: »

If Mrs Dravokivich, Dravokivich jnr, Dravokivich snr, Dravokivich's lodger or anyone else at Dravokivich's home signs for it then Dravokivich showing up to the court claiming they never received it is a liar and a chancer and should be done for perjury as well as whatever the original fine was for.

It was a genuine question. I actually almost missed out on something like that because of no one being around to receive the registered letter. I was lucky enough to be able to arrange someone to collect the letter from the depot. If I couldn't of done that, I genuinely wouldn't of known about it.

magicbastarder

Vic_08 wrote: »

An industry that cries foul at all the fraud being committed that cannot even provide AGS with an up to date list of their issued policies. As long as they can load all the costs onto the honest policyholder they really don't give a flying fukk.

my MIL was involved in a non-accident where another motorist claimed she'd hit her. the inspector sent out by the insurance company told my FIL that he was happy no collision had occured, my MIL's car was completely undamaged.
the insurance company paid out on the claim, and the other motorist has followed up with a personal claim against my MIL for whiplash (or some other injury). so my MIL will not be able to change insurance companies for several years now while that works its way through the legal system.

stanley1989

savagethegoat wrote: »

wouldn't work, registered letters to my home arrive through the door , the postman signs for them himself...he told me he does!

I'd go crazy who does he think he is !
Any registered letters that land to my address are returned to sender my post man doesn't even ask anymore he knows I don't want them

MJohnston

Carawaystick wrote: »

have you any evidence to back up a majority of people in Ireland want automatic cameras to record them travelling along bus lanes or through traffic lights?

The burden of proof is on you, as you claimed "We don't have automatic detection of petty crimes because people don't want it" without any evidence. I simply stated that I don't believe that's true.

how can a camera enforce any law? It could possibly be used to capture evidence of lawbreaking

This is a crazy statement. Speed cameras have systems that trigger a photo capture upon detection of a speed limit violation. Red light cameras are activated when a red light is present and snap a photo of any vehicle crossing a predetermined, and visible line. Bus lane cameras correlate license plates recorded in bus lanes with a simple database of valid users (ie. buses and registered taxis) and snap a photo when the vehicle is not allowed to be there.

Recording and capturing people carrying on with their daily lives without suspicion of serious crime is oppression, and without cause.
How would an automated camera not capture innocent people?

Not trying to offend, but I think you need to go an read up on how these things actually work, because it seems like you don't understand. All the automated cameras have a restricted field of view, a restricted area of operation in that FOV, and restricted operational commands. There isn't some operator sitting in a control room somewhere monitoring the feed. There isn't a permanent, continuous feed of video footage.

eeguy

howiya wrote: »

Do you avoid shops/buses etc that have CCTV?

And taxis, public places, the centre of most towns in Ireland, anyone that has a dashcam, tourists, people taking selfies etc.?

Whether you like it or not, when you're in a public place you're on camera. No one has an issue with this.

Speed cameras only take a snapshot of your license plate when you break a limit. The system is automated.
Take the tin foil hat off.

magicbastarder

the important distinction between a shop CCTV and a well-designed red light system is that a shop CCTV will record you even if you behave perfectly legally.
the recording should only happen at a red light camera if you actually trigger it.