Zero grazing costs.

Buford T. Justice XIX

I came across this on twitter while ago and thought it might be interesting for a few thinking of going ZG in the future.

blue5000

I think you're being generous saying a belmac ZG would be still worth 10k after 5 yrs.

tomwaterford

blue5000 wrote: »

I think you're being generous saying a belmac ZG would be still worth 10k after 5 yrs.

Price of steel going to through the roof :D

Mooooo

blue5000 wrote: »

I think you're being generous saying a belmac ZG would be still worth 10k after 5 yrs.

Neighbour seems to have gone thru a few different makes. They don't like bumpy roads I'd say. Seems to have gone to a mower and wagon now

jimmy G M

blue5000 wrote: »

I think you're being generous saying a belmac ZG would be still worth 10k after 5 yrs.

Also depreciation on the tractor for a full year @ 5k seems to be apportioned to OAD system only. For 400+- hours for the year it seems a bit strong?

Buford T. Justice XIX

jimmy G M wrote: »

Also depreciation on the tractor for a full year @ 5k seems to be apportioned to OAD system only. For 400+- hours for the year it seems a bit strong?

It's on for 270 days a year so it looks like that is it's main/only job.

jimmy G M

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It's on for 270 days a year so it looks like that is it's main/only job.

OK with the main job it does. But a tractor depreciating by €25k after 5 years work and 2,000 hours seems too much?

mf240

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It's on for 270 days a year so it looks like that is it's main/only job.

You can get tractors with pick up hitches now. No reason to have a tractor stuck in it full time.

tomwaterford

mf240 wrote: »

You can get tractors with pick up hitches now. No reason to have a tractor stuck in it full time.

If your going to be 2.75 loads 270 days a year....I'd say you could justify leaving it on the tractor those days???

mf240

tomwaterford wrote: »

If your going to be 2.75 loads 270 days a year....I'd say you could justify leaving it on the tractor those days???

I suppose. Sure you'd nearly want a teleported for shoving it in. And sure you'd nearly want a tractor left on the slurry tank aswell and maybe another on the agitator.

jaymla627

Pretty flawed calculations, 270 days won't be achieved at 2.75 loads a day, at 17kg dm the zero grazers is in theory feeding 155 odd cows, the calculations are basically assuming a infinite supply of grass outside of the November/december/January months, when the reality is the past two springs have seen lads having to supplement heavy in march/April aswell......
I think 5-7 cent per kilo dm costing for zero grazers is the real world working average

Muckit

Also would you have to be drawing in more loads on a wet day to have them getting the same DM?

alps

tomwaterford wrote: »

If your going to be 2.75 loads 270 days a year....I'd say you could justify leaving it on the tractor those days???

Why would you bring three quarters of a load? Wouldn't you just fill it up as you're at it?:D

tomwaterford

alps wrote: »

Why would you bring three quarters of a load? Wouldn't you just fill it up as you're at it?:D

I'm going off the figures shown


Guess the driver got pissed off late in the evening :P

Tail painter

If you do 2.75 loads x 270 days x 5 years, the machine will probably be scrap value or maintenance and repairs will be very high. zero grazers are designed to be light, so they can travel in wet conditions. Because of this, they don't last like a forage wagon, for example. The costings don't show a figure for feeding costs (pushing in grass, cleaning out troughs, slurry spreading, etc). However, I think that there may be a role for strategic zero grazing on a highly stocked farm. If grass is brought in from outfarms during a low growth period, then it could make sense. All the better if a contractor is willing to do it for more than one farm, so spreading the capital cost.

kowtow

There was a study in the north a while ago that I think had zg & baled grass at a similar level, perhaps a 5c odd premium to grazed, allowing for fencing costs roadways etc. - the working figure IIRC was 11c or 12c?

In any event none of these costing studies seem to be the whole story - I'm sure the ZG enthusiast would want, rightly, to make an allowance for better grass utilisation and growth as a result of managed cuts with a fert spreader tipping away on the back of the machine, for the labour saved in hunting cows in, for the extra yield available when cows are out of the weather and don't have a long walk back, or have to graze on a steep bank, etc. etc. etc.

And of course the big one - as much as I don't like dealing with zero grazer salesmen, I'm going to dislike dealing with the auctioneer of my late neigbours greedy children even more - and I'd have to wait an unspecified number of years to do so.

This is a country of small, fragmented, family farms and greedy neighbours. For the foreseeable future at least surely a well managed zg setup has a role to play for some people if more and more milk (solids) in the tank is going to be the only way to keep a foot in the game.

And (purely to encourage people to step back a little and think of the bigger picture) the depreciation on a Zero Grazer might be at nothing compared to the capital loss incurred on a badly timed 100 acre purchase when the yield curve finally returns to its long term norm and they stop giving money away at zero interest rates.

The traditional antidote to volatility is flexibility.

yosemitesam1

kowtow wrote: »

There was a study in the north a while ago that I think had zg & baled grass at a similar level, perhaps a 5c odd premium to grazed, allowing for fencing costs roadways etc. - the working figure IIRC was 11c or 12c?

In any event none of these costing studies seem to be the whole story - I'm sure the ZG enthusiast would want, rightly, to make an allowance for better grass utilisation and growth as a result of managed cuts with a fert spreader tipping away on the back of the machine, for the labour saved in hunting cows in, for the extra yield available when cows are out of the weather and don't have a long walk back, or have to graze on a steep bank, etc. etc. etc.

And of course the big one - as much as I don't like dealing with zero grazer salesmen, I'm going to dislike dealing with the auctioneer of my late neigbours greedy children even more - and I'd have to wait an unspecified number of years to do so.

This is a country of small, fragmented, family farms and greedy neighbours. For the foreseeable future at least surely a well managed zg setup has a role to play for some people if more and more milk (solids) in the tank is going to be the only way to keep a foot in the game.

And (purely to encourage people to step back a little and think of the bigger picture) the depreciation on a Zero Grazer might be at nothing compared to the capital loss incurred on a badly timed 100 acre purchase when the yield curve finally returns to its long term norm and they stop giving money away at zero interest rates.

The traditional antidote to volatility is flexibility.

How would high quality silage stack up against that, slightly less feed value but less labour, capital etc and easier to get into a tmr

kowtow

yosemitesam1 wrote:

How would high quality silage stack up against that, slightly less feed value but less labour, capital etc and easier to get into a tmr

I have no idea although I recall that cost wise silage on the study I saw was similar.

Would production be better on grass? Certainly from my point of view milk quality would be but I'm a niche in that respect.

And what about the production of a field? Is it possible to get a greater yield of top quality grass by ZG over the course of a year than by 3 or 4 cuts of bales? I'd have thought quality was easier to guarantee as you could always cut at the perfect point with ZG whereas bales that good and hit just when you need them would also take a fair investment and/or weather risk. Also by definition coming from an outfarm there will be cost or investment in drawing... we bring a couple of hundred bales each year 8km or so usually wrapping at home and it adds a whole layer of logistics.

In the bale comparison I suppose we must also take into account that you are cutting and drawing straight to the head of the cow, so the mowing labour is also the feed out labour so to speak.

There's obviously going to be a cost differential with grazed grass right by the parlour though.

The other issue is cow feed efficiency... have heard people say ZG worse as ability to sort feed is lost?

Water John

Horses for courses. ZG has a place on some farms. Very good sward after it. Downside heard that because of using a longer rotation that it can depress solids.
Fragmentation and needs must is often the reason for ZG.
Others may see potential in largely indoor cows if the payment on AD became a runner. Esp, if the farmer had poultry or pigs.

Timmaay

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

How would high quality silage stack up against that, slightly less feed value but less labour, capital etc and easier to get into a tmr

Aside from the fact that I'm allergic to machinary, high quality excess paddocks are the reason I'd never consider a ZG. Grass as we have really seen this year is an extremely variable crop in terms of GR, one week you can have a GR of 120, and too much grass on the farm, and no choice but to take out paddocks, afew weeks later into a drought, and the ZG will be of no use then, however the bales will be sitting there ready to be feed to the cows.

Water John

Tim point accepted. Surely similar applies to ZG, having to jump ahead and take out a wedge as bales if there is flush growth.

kevthegaff

What's tmr?

Water John

Total mixed ration. Fed from you diet feeder, contains all you want the cow to eat. Silage, ammonia treated barley, maize, etc.

One guy I know has more value on his ZG wagon than he does on his diet feeder, which is largely parked.

Keepgrowing

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

How would high quality silage stack up against that, slightly less feed value but less labour, capital etc and easier to get into a tmr

I can't see zg comparing to bales ever.
Bales
Contractor
Take in good weather
Tedd
40% DM
80 dmd
Every time
Zero graze
Your time
Your depreciation
Can't control weather
Max 25% DM
Everyday job

Bales 15c/kg DM
Zg must be similar

Buford T. Justice XIX

alps wrote: »

Why would you bring three quarters of a load? Wouldn't you just fill it up as you're at it?:D

You only bring in what the cattle will eat in a day or less. Any surplus grass ie the quarter load will likely be less palatable from heating the following day.

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

How would high quality silage stack up against that, slightly less feed value but less labour, capital etc and easier to get into a tmr

Silage is grass with a lower feed value;). The fermentation of grass will leave a lower value feed. Bales would have a lower drop in feed value over pit silage where the grass heats more for longer.

You can still use TMR with grass but the cost of the TMR will be lower as the grass should have a higher feed value than silage. It is also more variable than silage but there shouldn't be an issue in using some TMR as an addition to the grass. One lad in our DG hates using the diet feeder with grass as he prefers a more consistent forage like silage.

On the OP, as someone pointed out, you would have to add in the cost of spreading slurry to the total cost of the ZG as the grazing cows spread it themselves so that would add another bit onto the total cost.

Water John

There is a whole lot of diff between a farmer with some autumn calving cows and a spring calving to grass herd.

freedominacup

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

You only bring in what the cattle will eat in a day or less. Any surplus grass ie the quarter load will likely be less palatable from heating the following day.

Silage is grass with a lower feed value;). The fermentation of grass will leave a lower value feed. Bales would have a lower drop in feed value over pit silage where the grass heats more for longer.

You can still use TMR with grass but the cost of the TMR will be lower as the grass should have a higher feed value than silage. It is also more variable than silage but there shouldn't be an issue in using some TMR as an addition to the grass. One lad in our DG hates using the diet feeder with grass as he prefers a more consistent forage like silage.

On the OP, as someone pointed out, you would have to add in the cost of spreading slurry to the total cost of the ZG as the grazing cows spread it themselves so that would add another bit onto the total cost.

Silage is not grass with a lower feed value. Silage can beat the pants off grass for months of the year esp from Oct to Mar. I'd agree with kg 're bales and zg. Bales much more consistent. Wet, low sugar, low pr early spring or late Autumn grass is a very poor quality feed and is more something that has to be dealt with than a basis for a milking cows diet.

Buford T. Justice XIX

freedominacup wrote: »

Silage is not grass with a lower feed value. Silage can beat the pants off grass for months of the year esp from Oct to Mar. I'd agree with kg 're bales and zg. Bales much more consistent. Wet, low sugar, low pr early spring or late Autumn grass is a very poor quality feed and is more something that has to be dealt with than a basis for a milking cows diet.

That silage was made in May/June and it's not a fair comparison to compare it with October grass.

May/June grass is a better feed than May/June silage made from the same grass and October grass is a better feed than October silage made from the same grass was the point I was making.

freedominacup

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

That silage was made in May/June and it's not a fair comparison to compare it with October grass.

May/June grass is a better feed than May/June silage made from the same grass and October grass is a better feed than October silage made from the same grass was the point I was making.

Ok. Marginal enough in May/June esp if you're talking about grass just gone too strong for grazing being baled. Huge difference in Oct alright.

yosemitesam1

Water John wrote: »

Very good sward after it.

There's a field around here that's been zgrazed last 5-10 years, it doesn't look great, lots of wheel tracks and strips of bare/stunted looking grass through the whole year...

Keepgrowing

Water John wrote: »

There is a whole lot of diff between a farmer with some autumn calving cows and a spring calving to grass herd.

Outline them, I'm one and I see no difference aside from higher demand in spring

Dawggone

Zero grazing is the work of the devil.
Never again. You'd want nothing else to do...

However it probably has a place in fragmented farms.

Timmaay

Dawggone wrote: »

Zero grazing is the work of the devil.
Never again. You'd want nothing else to do...

However it probably has a place in fragmented farms.

By that logic fragmented farms are the work of the devil

kowtow

Can one of the bale experts turn their mind to whether and how to produce non fermented or mildly fermented bales (basically hay or haylage) on the same schedule as surplus bales in the summer? And with an equally high feed value?

We Ted all silage once if not twice and wrap it up like haylage... the logic being that the less fermentation the better the milk tastes. Haven't tested any for dm etc although would be quite high ..but beginning to think towards next year and whether we can really figure out a haylage like bale with the power of silage.

What feed value for example would the cool more hay crop be?

Dawggone

Timmaay wrote: »

By that logic fragmented farms are the work of the devil

Or...
The devil makes work for idle hands.

Postdriver

Buford T. Justice V wrote:

On the OP, as someone pointed out, you would have to add in the cost of spreading slurry to the total cost of the ZG as the grazing cows spread it themselves so that would add another bit onto the total cost.

But would the cost of spreading the slurry with a trailing shoe nice and evenly instead of the way a cow spreads it not be eliminated with the savings on fertiliser?

Buford T. Justice XIX

Postdriver wrote: »

But would the cost of spreading the slurry with a trailing shoe nice and evenly instead of the way a cow spreads it not be eliminated with the savings on fertiliser?

I think there will still be a fertilizer cost for N,P and K and lime depending on the overall soil fertility of the farm.

The N content in slurry is equivalent to a 50kg bag of 10:6:38 per 1000 gallons in spring and 3:6:38 in summer so you are going to need some bag fertilizer anyway especially in the summer.

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/using-cattle-slurry-to-reduce-costs-26443943.html

I don't think there is as much cow pats in grazing ground as there used be with younger, more digestible grasses being grazed earlier now and there seems a better distribution of manure from cows which is broken down easier on the soil.

You may very well be right on that, though, but I see it as another job to be done and I'm getting lazy in my old age:)

Water John

A diet feeder is a more important tool for an autumn calving herd. Can make a mix to complete late autumn and early spring grass along with TMR through the winter.
A ZG could be used by a spring calving herd, on the shoulders of the year and fragmented holding. Also cut ahead of a rain front.

freedominacup

kowtow wrote: »

Can one of the bale experts turn their mind to whether and how to produce non fermented or mildly fermented bales (basically hay or haylage) on the same schedule as surplus bales in the summer? And with an equally high feed value?

We Ted all silage once if not twice and wrap it up like haylage... the logic being that the less fermentation the better the milk tastes. Haven't tested any for dm etc although would be quite high ..but beginning to think towards next year and whether we can really figure out a haylage like bale with the power of silage.

What feed value for example would the cool more hay crop be?

Not a smart answer kt. Buy your own tedder. We started feeding bales hete yesterday made the last couple of days in Aug. Yielded around 2.5 bales per acre. Made with a fusion. 25-30% dm bales from those balers usually in the 850-900kg range, these ones around 650kg so I'm assuming dm close to 50. Purely accidental. Very light crop at the end of a prolonged dry period, no tedding as simply no need but perfectly preserved. If the right product goes in the right product will come out. Mj or Stan will be able to tell you how fast and with how many passes you can get this in more normal conditions. You know your own figures as to where it would become cost effective to have your own machine as against paying contracting charges for multiple passes with a tedder.

kowtow

freedominacup wrote: »

Not a smart answer kt. Buy your own tedder. We started feeding bales hete yesterday made the last couple of days in Aug. Yielded around 2.5 bales per acre. Made with a fusion. 25-30% dm bales from those balers usually in the 850-900kg range, these ones around 650kg so I'm assuming dm close to 50. Purely accidental. Very light crop at the end of a prolonged dry period, no tedding as simply no need but perfectly preserved. If the right product goes in the right product will come out. Mj or Stan will be able to tell you how fast and with how many passes you can get this in more normal conditions. You know your own figures as to where it would become cost effective to have your own machine as against paying contracting charges for multiple passes with a tedder.

I'm sure you are right .. apart from anything else our silage ground is a bit away and asking people to ted small crops repeatedly at busy times is a bit irritating... economically you are *definitely* right!

yosemitesam1

kowtow wrote: »

Can one of the bale experts turn their mind to whether and how to produce non fermented or mildly fermented bales (basically hay or haylage) on the same schedule as surplus bales in the summer? And with an equally high feed value?

We Ted all silage once if not twice and wrap it up like haylage... the logic being that the less fermentation the better the milk tastes. Haven't tested any for dm etc although would be quite high ..but beginning to think towards next year and whether we can really figure out a haylage like bale with the power of silage.

What feed value for example would the cool more hay crop be?

Do you know if its a specific part of the fermentation eg, lactic acid/acids in general, yeasts/moulds or some other smaller part of the process that effects the milk?
Formic acid in silage should stop around 80-90% of the fermentation while giving you top quality preservation but might taint the milk?
Propionic acid, urea or some sort of sulfur additive could be used on wet hay of around 30% moisture afaik maybe higher depending on product.
I'd say on an energy basis comparing top quality baled silage to hay from the same grass there would probably be around 10% less energy due to losing all the sugars during wilting.

Mooooo

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

kowtow wrote: »

Can one of the bale experts turn their mind to whether and how to produce non fermented or mildly fermented bales (basically hay or haylage) on the same schedule as surplus bales in the summer? And with an equally high feed value?

We Ted all silage once if not twice and wrap it up like haylage... the logic being that the less fermentation the better the milk tastes. Haven't tested any for dm etc although would be quite high ..but beginning to think towards next year and whether we can really figure out a haylage like bale with the power of silage.

What feed value for example would the cool more hay crop be?

Do you know if its a specific part of the fermentation eg, lactic acid/acids in general, yeasts/moulds or some other smaller part of the process that effects the milk?
Formic acid in silage should stop around 80-90% of the fermentation while giving you top quality preservation but might taint the milk?
Propionic acid, urea or some sort of sulfur additive could be used on wet hay of around 30% moisture afaik maybe higher depending on product.
I'd say on an energy basis comparing top quality baled silage to hay from the same grass there would probably be around 10% less energy due to losing all the sugars during wilting.

The extra wilting would likely drop the protein too?

freedominacup

freedominacup wrote: »

Not a smart answer kt. Buy your own tedder. We started feeding bales hete yesterday made the last couple of days in Aug. Yielded around 2.5 bales per acre. Made with a fusion. 25-30% dm bales from those balers usually in the 850-900kg range, these ones around 650kg so I'm assuming dm close to 50. Purely accidental. Very light crop at the end of a prolonged dry period, no tedding as simply no need but perfectly preserved. If the right product goes in the right product will come out. Mj or Stan will be able to tell you how fast and with how many passes you can get this in more normal conditions. You know your own figures as to where it would become cost effective to have your own machine as against paying contracting charges for multiple passes with a tedder.

Got a good response from these bales. No shortage of grass but cows dropped a litre plus last week. Got it all back plus a little more once bales were put in. Still climbing I think. 19 litres at around 3.9 and 4.5.

Water John

From now on Autumn grass won't have a great deal to contribute in keeping up yields and solids moreso. More important again for the Autumn calving cow.