What to shoot and when.

Cass

This is not a debate on morality, nor is it a debate on the ethics of shooting certain ones, but something i've seen lately has me asking questions.

Deer.

Social media has shown more and more of what people do so it may be a case of this always happened just now you see it more frequently. However the number of "trophy" and what i would call good breeding Bucks and Stags being shot seems to be very high.

Of all the pictures i've seen only a handful, literally i can count them on one hand, have been prickéts. Now i'm not opposed to a good size Buck/Stag, how could i haven taken a few over the years, but i'd weigh up that decision against the herd integrity. However some i've seen have dropped not only multiple animals in a week, but in a day.

So i'm wondering what do you go for, when, and would you take whatever came along or do you cherry pick for certain ones and if so which.


BTW this is NOT a dig at anything anyone has shot. I'm not trying to highlight someone or something. I'm just curious as to the mentality of how lads choose what and when to shoot.

Thanks.

Rimfire Shooter

I've seen some stuff this last few weeks on social media sites & heard a few conversations.

When I stalked deer (stopped 5 years ago because of what's going on out there) lads shot one or two a year for their own freezer, there weren't many doing it & trophy stags were never shot until after the rut was over if the season was still open for them.

Do away with the game dealer & things will go back to the "good olde days".

cookimonster

I know this may sound flippant, but I tend to shoot what is in front of me, legally. I try to get out at least once a week if not twice, but as you know well not every outing results in a shot. It's only last week that I managed to start off my season with a spiker, followed up this week with a pricket, mostly I've been seeing hinds and calves, with fleeting glimpses or unsuccessful stalks on stags.
So with the chiller full I'll give it a miss for a week to ten days. During the season I would be
take 6-7 deer for myself which keeps my freezer full. Come the first of November I will specifically target hinds and calves over stags, taking a couple or three calves for family and friends.
The most I've shot in a day during the season is two and I know now that's plenty and am happy to get one and lucky if I take a second.
I've shot section 42's and have no qualms shooting what's detailed on it and have shot multiple deer on a outing, I don't equate this with sports shooting, the farmer wants it done then I'm willing to do it.. In my opinion when the farmer sees a marked decrease in the presence of deer or subsequent damage it's not because we've thinned their number out, its because they soon learn to avoid that area. Give it a while and they'll be back.

cookimonster

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

......lads shot one or two a year for their own freezer, there weren't many doing.........Do away with the game dealer & things will go back to the "good olde days".

My uncle's where stalking back in the day when there was no regulations and continued through the bull of '22-250 only' and out the other side to what we know now in terms of legislation / regulations etc. They certainly didn't just shoot 1 or 2 for the freezer as my father, a non stalker, got several deer every season for our freezer.
I'm not directing this a Rimfire Shooter but I think this is a romantic view of the not so distant past as I know plenty of senior stalkers who have always shot a lot more than 1or 2 for the freezer. One average Sika stag will provide my family of four with 20 to 25 dinners depending on the way I break the carcass.

grassroot1

It would be great if we had a national deer management plan or taught stalkers
herd dynamics and how to manage the deer population for its improvement not exploitation.
Ya I know not a hope

Cass

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

I've seen some stuff this last few weeks on social media sites & heard a few conversations.

But has it always been there and only more visible with social media?

Up till 7 - 8 years ago few were on social media. Even today the number of people on it are frighteningly small. It's why petitions, information, etc is so slow to spread among the shooting community.

Do away with the game dealer

Might help, but i doubt it. However it's only a small part of a much larger issue. However it's been done to death so i'll leave it for another thread on another day.

& things will go back to the "good olde days".

As with above has it always been going on only back 20, 25, 30 years ago you didn't have Twitter, Facebook, snaptalk, that thing where people post about their food, etc, etc.?

cookimonster wrote: »

I know this may sound flippant, but I tend to shoot what is in front of me, legally.

As i said above i'm not out to vilify anyone. I've done the same myself.

I'm just curious what people think about so many good stags and bucks being dropped before the rut. Maybe the pictures and reports make it seem like a lot, and perhaps i'm only seeing the good ones that people post and not the ones that are not "post worthy".

It makes me think are shooting certain deer at the wrong time of the year. It's why i'm curious about what people shoot and when (when being time of year as opposed to day of the week).

grassroot1 wrote: »

Ya I know not a hope

A sad but unfortunate truth.

Rimfire Shooter

Social media is the modern and more destructive form of the bragging in the pub on a Saturday night some of us old fogies still do.

I've shot a lot of game of all descriptions. I've never sold any to anyone. If I don't want it I give it to someone who does free. If nobody wants it I don't shoot it.

I've often been taken out by others shooting & never had to pay them. I've taken lads out shooting and never charged them.

When people are making money from their sport or hobby to me it is no longer a sport or a hobby it's a business.

Yes Cass like duck season (make it same as pheasant) I reckon deer season does need to be adjusted so stags cannot be shot until after the rut and a tag system should be introduced to at least make an attempt to minimise the current slaughter by a few who are drawn by the money to be made.

When I was young we didn't have the money, time (we were wrking longer hours for less money) or the kit and large calibres that's available to deer shooters (in my day we were stalkers) today.

I was a deer stalker when I hunted deer. I am still a game hunter for a few more yars but that's coming to an end too. Too many today are not stalkers or hunters but are merely shooters.

No Cass I don't think it's always been like this. Not in my experience anyway.

cookimonster

Rimfire Shooter, have to agree with you there in relation to the breakdown of the gender cull over the season. Put the stags on the list late into the season well after the rut.

Back to Cass's original question and a add on if I may, how many have or do cull inferior animals when seen or are they forsaken in pursuit of a better animal?

Every thing I read or see on the media would say that best practice for the hunter is to cull the inferior animal for the sake of the heard etc.

Rimfire Shooter

cookimonster wrote: »

Back to Cass's original question and a add on if I may, how many have or do cull inferior animals when seen or are they forsaken in pursuit of a better animal?

Great point.

I don't begrudge anyone a trophy grade animal. I have one. An 8 pointer fallow. He's hanging on my wall. I've seen better since I shot him but didn't take 'em. Last night on a particular FB page I was looking at to return to Cass's opening post stags obviously in their prime are being getting shot in some areas so the breeding pool must be diminished and weakened as a result? Every picture posted was more impressive then the one before.

grassroot1

Well then lets light a candle rather than curse the dark. What do you tell a complete novice about deer management and selecting cull animals?
Cass maybe it needs a new thread forgive me if it does.

Grizzly 45

TBH I see this 180 degrees.Shooting stags once they have passed their prime as breeding animals is AOK.They have added to the gene pool,but are not in charge anymore of the herd and have been driven off by younger and stronger competitors.Shooting the younger immature animals is doing the damage as they aren't getting a chance to "spread the love around."

But then again that's in an ideal world. As we don't really have established reserves and have a national cull plan or one demanded of us on a personal level,it is a free for all here,and understandably so.You see a decent beast on your let,how long might he be there before the neighbour or a poacher shoots him? The concept of having a resident stag that you can trace his growth from youth to maturity to prime value target over the years is unknown here,yet in the EU they can virtually give you his life history on the reserve and proably his cast antlers as well.Ironic ,when you consider a trophy stag shot by a tourist might be triple the value in the actual shot than what he would be worth in the butchers.
On the subject of butchers and game dealers..It's another reason I wont eat venison unless I know who shot it or where it came from,or I shot it meself.Anyone who has consumed a full in the rut,testosterone pumped up stag will know what I mean in smell and taste.:eek: S o God alone knows what type of venison some punters have been chewing on.Which brings on the next point as Rimfire said,game dealers and illegal harvesting.There is money involved in this and there are too many looking at making a "quick buck" from shooting and selling Tagging,bag limits and all the rest wont sort this out,it simply has to be done by either an outright ban[like in the USA] of selling venison commercially by hunting. Or a moratorium for 5 years on venison being sold by hunted methods in Ireland from game dealers.

So that puts me in a catch 22 situation.See a fine trophy stag,do I shoot and then have to dispose of about 250 lbs plus of very rancid gamey meat myself as I am not going to go play the selling game,and am least of all intrested in enriching organisations and game dealers with courses and low pay high profit dealers. Or let it go and no doubt hear a shot a half hour later from the neighbouring let from the direction the stag was last seen going?

I'm more intrested these days in filling my freezer and belly than my walls with trophies[.Even a big house can only hold so many quarter mounts without it becoming full] So I am more inclined for a good autumn calf or winter fat hind than a trophy.Dont get me wrong,if trophies are your thing...More power to you and if a good 15kg lad walked past me,I'd be thinking twice too. But thats my take on the situation.

cookimonster

.............. I am more inclined for a good autumn calf or winter fat hind........

Mmmmmmm venison !!!!!!!!!!............ drool, slurp, drool

Cass

grassroot1 wrote: »

Cass maybe it needs a new thread forgive me if it does.

We have a thread for shooting/hunting tips, but i don't recall anything in it to the extent that would be needed to explain.

Also, and i count myself here, who would be an expert that everyone could agree with? There are so many theories on what to shoot, when, etc.

However a dedicated hunting thread on what to shoot, when, etc would be a consideration. Not to deal with ethics, but on best management practices. Also to swap ideas and opinions on season, etc.

Will look into it.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So that puts me in a catch 22 situation.See a fine trophy stag,do I shoot and then have to dispose of about 250 lbs plus of very rancid gamey meat myself ........................... Or let it go and no doubt hear a shot a half hour later from the neighbouring let from the direction the stag was last seen going?
.

I understand what you're saying and it's awkward position, but i don't really adhere to this theory. I did before, but not now.

If i shoot it to prevent someone else from possibly getting it then it's dead regardless. I'd sooner leave it and let it take its chances. Of course that depends on whether it's in it's prime or as you said an aging Stag/Buck that should be removed to make way for new blood.

Now i'm in an ideal situation where i have the only permission on a lot of land. This doesn't stop poaching but it's minimal to non existent and i've no one else to contend with. So if i let an animal go, there is a high chance (unless it wanders onto land where other other shoot) that it'll be there the following season.

It's a hard call, but now i believe if i let it go rather than drop it i'm doing my bit.

Vegeta

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

No Cass I don't think it's always been like this.

In my experience it was worse if anything. There were game dealers 20 years ago too and venison was 4 Irish pounds a kg. So a lot of the stuff today was also going on back then, at least locally to me anyway. I do believe we look at it with rose tinted glasses.

I only had a conversation a few days ago with a prominent local stalker and he openly discusses how "free" everything was 20-30 years ago. Still shoots a .22-250 but shot a lot of his deer with a .22 hornet and some illumination. :eek:

What I do believe has changed is that it is easier to get into deer shooting than it was 20 years ago, so there are more lads at it. Maybe that's because information is more freely available I don't know.