Luas Fine , failure to "tag on" but I had "Just Validated". .

Azizur Rahman

Hello, potential throw away here but I like the name.

Looking your views and opinions. I arrived and tagged off at a Luas stop but due to a sudden change of plans, I had to tag on to get on the Luas again. The tagging machine displayed the initial tag off and then when I attempted to tag on it displayed the phrase "Just Validated". I'm not a frequent Luas user so I took this to mean I was now in possession of a valid ticket.

Fast forward a few Luas stops and I get taken off the tram for not having a valid ticket. I explained to the Revenue man I tagged off and tagged on. Regardless I was issued a standard fare notice aka a fine.

I appealed on the grounds I made a good faith effort to tag on but my appeal was unsuccessful. I rang Luas Customer Care and was informed you must wait three minutes after tagging off before tagging on again. This information is not displayed at the Luas stops, tagging machine or on the Luas website.

Therefore I am inclined to think, "Hang on, I tagged off, I tagged on, why should I be getting fine for not waiting three minutes and the machine told me Just Validated?"

Views people?

topnotch

Seems very reasonable to me, I think you should have solid grounds for appeal. Not too many people know about this three minute rule.

highdef

topnotch wrote: »

Not too many people know about this three minute rule.

I think more will do from now on though

magicbastarder

topnotch wrote: »

I think you should have solid grounds for appeal.

unfortunately the OP seems to have used the appeal process unsuccessfully already.
i don't know what's next - complain to the NTA? you could argue that the luas operators did not dispute your version of events, and that a hidden 'clause' means you didn't meet their requirements.

kirving

I guess that it's to prevent double tagging accidentally, or to allow their systems to update.

If that's the case then it's a woefully designed system.

topnotch

At the end of the day you did nothing wrong or unreasonable. It's just tough luck that you have to pay a fine for a loophole in the system.

super_furry

Wouldn't have known about that three minute rule at all myself, sounds like you do have grounds for appeal.

antoinolachtnai

Was the luas short money because you were tagged off? If so how much?

The 'three-minute rule' is not a documented feature of the Leap ticketing system as far as I know. It is not mentioned in the Luas bylaws or elsewhere.

It sounds like you complied with para 2.5 of the Luas terms. The words 'just validated' are obviously ambiguous.

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2FCj953WkPB%2B7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2B2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2Bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2FB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3D&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

There is an evidential problem with the small Leap validators from what I understand. They do not actually check whether there is an appropriate ticket issued. They just check if a 'tagged on' flag has been set. I don't know if there is anything in this for you, but it could become a real problem if you went to Court (which you should avoid doing, naturally).

I would write to the Leap Card group at the NTA asking that they deal with the fine. It is a problem with the Leap Card design.

Azizur Rahman

Thanks all for the reply.

I did appeal but the response was that the fine is valid has I was not in possession of a valid ticket. I have since replied highlighting the three minute wait period I did not know about. If this is still unsuccessful my only avenue is to face Transdev in court and argue my case, but I'm not keen to do that as I'm sure we all know things are never clear cut in court.

antoinolachtnai

I would suggest you accept the fine and then complain to NTA on the basis that their mistake in the design of the scheme has led to you being fined, and that you want them to pay your fine. I am not saying it will work, but it keeps the door open.

magicbastarder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is a problem with the Leap Card design.

the main aggravation here is that there is a blindingly simple fix - the message displayed to the user is the obvious 'pinch point'.

i.e. if it displayed 'no transaction - card already validated', they could defend themselves. 'just validated' sounds like a thumbs up.

Azizur Rahman

I will likely pay the fine before it goes to €100 and then get on to the NTA to see what they say. A simple fix indeed, I have also asked Transdev do they intend changing the displayed message to remove future confusion.

Also, yes Transdev would have lost money for a journey from Heuston to Connolly, not sure what the fare amounts are. I have no problem paying for that.

Harvey Normal

magicbastarder wrote: »

the main aggravation here is that there is a blindingly simple fix - the message displayed to the user is the obvious 'pinch point'.

i.e. if it displayed 'no transaction - card already validated', they could defend themselves. 'just validated' sounds like a thumbs up.

It does make the "this didn't work sound though". Same sound as if there was no credit in the card.

magicbastarder

people may be listening to music on headphones though - or deaf - so the method by which an actual message is imparted should be the primary method.

Chivito550

Do not pay the fine. Appeal it to wherever you need. Why do so many just accept injustices like this.

It's not 3 minutes by the way. I took the red line to the square once to pick up something really quickly. I had 15 minutes to catch the next LUAS back which I just about made. I went to touch on and it wouldn't let me as I had already recently touched off. So I got on the tram, and of course a few stops later an inspector arrives. Before he came to me I called him over, explained my problem and he said no problem, scanned my leap and could see that I attempted to touch on.

You are being taken for a ride here. Do not pay.

savagethegoat

a solicitor's letter would scare them off, it depends if you want to go to that expense though.

lucernarian

I discovered this for myself, when I couldn't tag back on. I called them immediately and after I was told about the 3 minute thing, I criticised this and the lack of info about it. The guy on the phone was very defensive and didn't seem to understand the problems that such a long wait period would cause. I pointed out I could easily miss the luas arriving in the opposite direction.

I understand they want to avoid people tagging on again by mistake, but 3 minutes is ridiculous.

I'm sorry that I didn't escalate the issue after reading this story now.

GLaDOS

3 min is definitely too long, 30 seconds is more than enough to prevent double tagging.

lucernarian

Also, the card checker, at least the Dublin bus ones, are able to check the card history for the last 5 actions. If they saw that somebody tagged on e.g. 30 minutes ago, and tagged off 15 minutes ago, it seems very unfair to fine them. The duration of validity is 90 minutes for travel, it's not likely someone would tag off somewhere and then be on a luas 15 minutes later in the opposite direction for the purposes of fare evasion.

beauf

I find this 3 mins incredibly annoying. I have no idea why it's set so long.

GLaDOS

Almost cost me the other day, though partly my own fault :pac: I forgot to tag off when I left the luas (Was a long journey so I wasn't due any cash back anyway). When I went to make the return journey half an hour later I was only able to tag off. Luckily the Luas was 4 min away so was able to tag on just as it was arriving.

Terrlock

I think this was me I'd see them in court.

You did everything right...you tagged you ticket and it said it was validated.....

It's not your fault they designed there system with a 3 minute hidden rule that you only find out if there is a problem.

jimmycrackcorm

They should allow a double tag after a tag off to denote a new tag on. I.e. First to tag off, second in case you accidentally tagged and third to confirm you wish to tag back on.

Infini

The 3minute delay is passback protection. Its meant to stop people tagging on twice and getting overcharged boarding as well as to stop multiple people using the same leapcard. IR and Luas basically have a 1 card per person system the bus is the odd exception to this.

Haithabu

savagethegoat wrote: »

a solicitor's letter would scare them off, it depends if you want to go to that expense though.

Why would a solicitor's letter scare the Revenue Protection Team off ? The argument is that "you need to have a valid ticket" if you use the tram. The OP did not have a valid ticket so he has no legal grounds to contest that.

Yes, the displayed message might have been misinterpreted by the OP but that does not change the fact that the OP did not have a valid ticket. It's his responsibility to ensure he his a valid ticket, not someone elses. The solicitor is the wrong way.

OP should gather the travel history of his Leapcard which he can get online. He should provide that to the Revenue Protection Team to show that he had a valid ticket before and hope they accept this was a misunderstanding.

In general, if you want to play hard balls and get a solicitor you need to be right, otherwise you end up paying the standard fare, a fine in court and on top of that the solicitor. Better pay the standard fare.

Haithabu

beauf wrote: »

I find this 3 mins incredibly annoying. I have no idea why it's set so long.

How often do you use that feature that you get off the LUAS and on again within 3 minutes ?

Haithabu

magicbastarder wrote: »

people may be listening to music on headphones though - or deaf - so the method by which an actual message is imparted should be the primary method.

Additionally to the error tone it flashes red instead of green. Apart from that it did not display "tagged on" but instead it displayed "just validated".

If in doubt, you can always put the leapcard into the leapcard holder at any LUAS stop and it will tell you if you are tagged on or tagged off.

magicbastarder

Haithabu wrote: »

Apart from that it did not display "tagged on" but instead it displayed "just validated".

which is a clearly vague message to display.

KD345

Does this 3 minute rule also apply to switching modes of transport? For example, if you hop off a tram at Abbey Street and immediately board a bus, do you qualify for the €1 discount if you board within three minutes? Or does this 3 minute rule only apply to same stop validators?

Surely this will need to be eliminated in the next few months when the two luas lines link up - unless they plan to change the fare structure, people will be transferring between trams a lot and tagging on and off.

Haithabu

magicbastarder wrote: »

which is a clearly vague message to display.

Still not saying "tagged on" (or "OK", or "grand", or "enjoy your trip") as it should plus still an error tone plus still red lights flashing. Every reason to assume something is not right with the ticket. Or at least enough to have doubts that something is not correct. If in doubt, check your card at the machine. If in doubt, don't just board and assume everything is fine.

goingnowhere

KD345 wrote: »

Does this 3 minute rule also apply to switching modes of transport? For example, if you hop off a tram at Abbey Street and immediately board a bus, do you qualify for the €1 discount if you board within three minutes? Or does this 3 minute rule only apply to same stop validators?

Surely this will need to be eliminated in the next few months when the two luas lines link up - unless they plan to change the fare structure, people will be transferring between trams a lot and tagging on and off.

3 minute rule is per operator so you can tag off on luas and tag on on the bus or train immediately seconds later

Its only 2 minutes on Irish Rail

Cross city Luas should not require a tag off and on

lucernarian

Haithabu wrote: »

Still not saying "tagged on" (or "OK", or "grand", or "enjoy your trip") as it should plus still an error tone plus still red lights flashing. Every reason to assume something is not right with the ticket. Or at least enough to have doubts that something is not correct. If in doubt, check your card at the machine. If in doubt, don't just board and assume everything is fine.

Still missing the point. 3 minutes is too long.

ED E

magicbastarder wrote: »

people may be listening to music on headphones though - or deaf - so the method by which an actual message is imparted should be the primary method.

Thats why it flashes a red light too.

Haithabu

lucernarian wrote: »

Still missing the point. 3 minutes is too long.

I agree. 10 seconds should be enough to avoid tagging twice by accident. But I don't see why this is a big issue because how often does the scenario occur that you get off, tag off and then change your mind about your travel destination, tag on again and take the same tram again ?

And why is that "missing the point" ? Does disagreeing with the 3 minute rule entitle you to board the LUAS without a valid ticket ? Maybe they want to avoid that you give the LUAS card to a friend who is waiting at the stop and does his own travel with the same LEAP card.

lucernarian

Haithabu wrote: »

And why is that "missing the point" ? Does disagreeing with the 3 minute rule entitle you to board the LUAS without a valid ticket ? Maybe they want to avoid that you give the LUAS card to a friend who is waiting at the stop and does his own travel with the same LEAP card.

Firstly, the frequency of how often it happens is of absolutely no relevance to the merits of the idea. A bad idea is a bad idea no matter if it happens every day or every year.

Spare the "fine" malarky, the appeal was denied and anything to be pursued further is up to the OP.

The machine itself says "just validated" - I think that's a completely legitimate cue for someone to board a tram.

How is that scenario of passing a leap card to someone, even countenanced as a reason? How likely or often would it even be of theoretical benefit? A personalised card couldn't be used, a regular leap card would have normal fares and the same 90 minute duration for everyone.

If someone were going to give an active leap card to someone else, they probably wouldn't tag off in the first place?!

MOH

It's happened me a couple of times where I've travelled somewhere for a short appointment and forgotten to tag off.

Come back 20/30 mins later for the return journey, go to tag on on the opposite platform, and get tagged off instead. Then stuck with a LUAS coming but unable to tag on. There's no indication of what the problem is, or how long you're supposed to wait.

First time it happened there happened to be an inspector on the platform who saw me glaring at the validator, came over and asked what was up. Told me they'd be checking tickets further along, gave me his name and told them to say hed given me permission to travel.

Second time I just got on the LUAS. Weirdly, inspector got on, I just gave him my Leap card which as far as I knew wasn't tagged on, expecting an argument, it seemed to check out OK.

It's insane having a completely undocumented 3-minute delay not mentioned anywhere on the Luas or Leapcard websites.

antoinolachtnai

Haithabu wrote: »

I agree. 10 seconds should be enough to avoid tagging twice by accident. But I don't see why this is a big issue because how often does the scenario occur that you get off, tag off and then change your mind about your travel destination, tag on again and take the same tram again ?

And why is that "missing the point" ? Does disagreeing with the 3 minute rule entitle you to board the LUAS without a valid ticket ? Maybe they want to avoid that you give the LUAS card to a friend who is waiting at the stop and does his own travel with the same LEAP card.

The problem is that there is no 'three minute rule'. The OP never knew about the rule and even if he/she had read everything ever written on the LEAP card and Luas websites, he/she would not have known about it. It is not in the Luas SI and it is not in the terms and conditions governing the LEAP card. It is just something that somebody made up.

I agree about this being an edge case, something that happens infrequently but if LUAS had accepted it was an edge case, they would have just let it go.

ED E

Luas have never been good with edge cases, remember the first Leap Day (predates leap cards unfortunately)?

Azizur Rahman

Hello all. Update on the Luas situation. So I send an email asking for an explanation of how the Appeals Board came to their decision. I did not pay the standard fare fine. Since the email I haven't received any correspondence. I'm thinking they decided to not pursue it.

Isambard

Azizur Rahman wrote: »

Hello all. Update on the Luas situation. So I send an email asking for an explanation of how the Appeals Board came to their decision. I did not pay the standard fare fine. Since the email I haven't received any correspondence. I'm thinking they decided to not pursue it.

Only 2 and a half weeks since your first post. I think you may yet get a reply.