Driver Less Light Rail

NiallBoo

Why not use dual-gauge tracks?

NiallBoo

Re automated Luas:

The technology isn't quite there for a non-segregated system...but it's close, very close.
The tech is being pushed through for cars and is looking good, at least in urban environments - and a tram would be much easier.
Really the bones of it are there already, it would just need someone to invest in porting it to a tram system and test.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

you can have an underground heavy rail line. takes in dart underground, airport link, and associated infrastructure expansion to allow greater capacity on the existing dart network. all that would make a rather decent system. a separate system like metro is in my view a waste of time and money. building the line as heavy rail underground however would have a lot more benefits.

You can but with a metro every 7 minutes and commuter/DART on existing N Commuter lines every 10 minutes what benefit is there to heavy rail. Why waste hundreds of millions more when there would be no benefits to heavy rail operations. Would be better spent adding a third line in parts to existing heavy rail network on N Commuter.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What would the driver do now than an automatic tram wouldn't?

A good question but I know that I always travel as close to the driver as possible on the Red Line in, perhaps, the vain belief that he would summon help in event of an incident.

tabbey

end of the road wrote: »

you can have an underground heavy rail line. takes in dart underground, airport link, and associated infrastructure expansion to allow greater capacity on the existing dart network. all that would make a rather decent system. a separate system like metro is in my view a waste of time and money. building the line as heavy rail underground however would have a lot more benefits.

I entirely agree.

Massive investment in heavy rail is urgently needed, both quadrupling as much as possible of the existing routes, and additonal heavy rail underground lines.

The powers that be, who only do what the ignorant majority tell them,have blithely pursued a road based solution for Dublin, as if it was a small city, and we are paying the price.

Once a city goes over a million, a heavy rail network is needed, both for inner suburbs, slow tracks, and outer suburban / intercity services, running on fast tracks.

Burying heads under the sand does not work, government must address the issue now, for Dublin to have any future.

Sam Russell

NiallBoo wrote: »

Why not use dual-gauge tracks?

They have a problem in Australia with mixed gauge. It does not work well for them.

Standard gauge is 4ft 8.5 inches or 1.423 metres. Irish gauge is 1.6 metres or 5ft 3.52 inches. The difference is about 7 inches, which is a bit tight for points, I would think. It would also give rise to differential wear on the tracks.

The mistake was to allow Luas to use standard gauge.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

A good question but I know that I always travel as close to the driver as possible on the Red Line in, perhaps, the vain belief that he would summon help in event of an incident.

Well I'm sure they would have SOS points on board that connect with control center and that's all the driver would do today is communicate with control in any incident. They won't leave the cab under any circumstances.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well I'm sure they would have SOS points on board that connect with control center and that's all the driver would do today is communicate with control in any incident. They won't leave the cab under any circumstances.

Well I like to think that if the driver could see an incident directly behind him that he would do something, but perhaps not.

afatbollix

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well I like to think that if the driver could see an incident directly behind him that he would do something, but perhaps not.

They are drivers not security guards. Would you go up against some of the public on the red line?

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nope but what Infini2 suggested is not at all practical solution to heavy rail issues. Metro line is needed as North Dublin is rapidly expanding and going under ground is more likely unavoidable. I'm sure if they could construct a Luas line like the Green one it would already be in construction.

As for the general strike comment, those latter members actually deserve a big pay rise because they actually do serious work and come out with the same or less than bus/tram drivers.

I agree an underground line is the only real option but it needs to be Dart and not a new separate service running on its own.

Bus and rail drivers must do serious work as well seen as most here can't seem to cope with them on strike. Maybe if some where effected by crime on the day of a garda strike so opinions may change and not be so supporting after all.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You can but with a metro every 7 minutes and commuter/DART on existing N Commuter lines every 10 minutes what benefit is there to heavy rail. Why waste hundreds of millions more when there would be no benefits to heavy rail operations. Would be better spent adding a third line in parts to existing heavy rail network on N Commuter.

There would be massive benefits for heavy rail not only in Dublin but for most of the country. Nothing wrong with having the metro route implemented by using Dart with connections into the rest of the network. Yes it would involve slight changes for maximum benefit. Savings made can go towards northern line capacity upgrades.

MGWR

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have a problem in Australia with mixed gauge. It does not work well for them.

Standard gauge is 4ft 8.5 inches or 1.423 metres. Irish gauge is 1.6 metres or 5ft 3.52 inches. The difference is about 7 inches, which is a bit tight for points, I would think. It would also give rise to differential wear on the tracks.

The mistake was to allow Luas to use standard gauge.

This pic shows mixed 1600-mm and 1435-mm gauge tracks in Geelong, Australia, with points included. It's doable, but increases expense.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

There would be massive benefits for heavy rail not only in Dublin but for most of the country. Nothing wrong with having the metro route implemented by using Dart with connections into the rest of the network. Yes it would involve slight changes for maximum benefit. Savings made can go towards northern line capacity upgrades.

it will all be integrated eventually. Swords and Airport need a separate routing and should be just that. If you ant a Heavy rail connection then then expand N Line and spend the 150-200 million on airport spur.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

it will all be integrated eventually. Swords and Airport need a separate routing and should be just that. If you ant a Heavy rail connection then then expand N Line and spend the 150-200 million on airport spur.

It won't be integrated. What you talk of is haven luas, dart, metro and intercity / suburban. They will each meet in one location by means of transferring from one to the other, just add more buses then. Very short sighted thinking here as by the time it's built every pro metro campaigner will be asking for expansion and more integration. A metro running Swords to SSG via the airport is only reducing traffic on one small corridor. People need to think beyond the city centre and dublin. A full Dart system benefits not only dublin but all surrounding areas.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

It won't be integrated. What you talk of is haven luas, dart, metro and intercity / suburban. They will each meet in one location by means of transferring from one to the other, just add more buses then. Very short sighted thinking here as by the time it's built every pro metro campaigner will be asking for expansion and more integration. A metro running Swords to SSG via the airport is only reducing traffic on one small corridor. People need to think beyond the city centre and dublin. A full Dart system benefits not only dublin but all surrounding areas.

And with heavy rail to the airport the same will be required, you cannot have a direct link from everywhere to one location.

As for the metro corridor, the North route into the city is fastest growing in terms of population.

So you want DARTS from Bray, Graystones, Howth, Malahide, Maynooth, Intercity and Louth services to all run to the airport directly? It just isn't possible.

This metro line will likely be the first of many if it's gets built so a hub at SSG with Luas is logical and DU if happens will also be there.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And with heavy rail to the airport the same will be required, you cannot have a direct link from everywhere to one location.

As for the metro corridor, the North route into the city is fastest growing in terms of population.

So you want DARTS from Bray, Graystones, Howth, Malahide, Maynooth, Intercity and Louth services to all run to the airport directly? It just isn't possible.

This metro line will likely be the first of many if it's gets built so a hub at SSG with Luas is logical and DU if happens will also be there.

If the Metro North is Dart rolling stock, and Dart underground is built, Dart to Swords/SSG is one line. With the Clongriffin spur, there is Airport to Bray via Connolly is a second, and Bray to Maynooth is a third, with GCD to Hazlehatch a fourth. This serves North Dublin and West Dublin.

For the South side continue the Dart south from SSG underground to Ranelagh and on to Brides Glen and onto Bray, and divert Luas at Charlement Bridge towards Sandymount and Ringsend east and west along the canal to Killmainham, linking up with the red line.

With the old Glass Bottle site developed for housing and offices, you begin to have a system which is Dublin wide.

Obviously, this will be done in time for the 2116 celebrations of the two hundred year anniversary of the GPO uprising. Let us hope we all live to see it.

Lots of joined up routes.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the Metro North is Dart rolling stock, and Dart underground is built, Dart to Swords/SSG is one line. With the Clongriffin spur, there is Airport to Bray via Connolly is a second, and Bray to Maynooth is a third, with GCD to Hazlehatch a fourth. This serves North Dublin and West Dublin.

For the South side continue the Dart south from SSG underground to Ranelagh and on to Brides Glen and onto Bray, and divert Luas at Charlement Bridge towards Sandymount and Ringsend east and west along the canal to Killmainham, linking up with the red line.

With the old Glass Bottle site developed for housing and offices, you begin to have a system which is Dublin wide.

Obviously, this will be done in time for the 2116 celebrations of the two hundred year anniversary of the GPO uprising. Let us hope we all live to see it.

Lots of joined up routes.

So the only problem with MN is the rolling stock as DART from Swords to SSG (and beyond) over a metro branded service. I still cannot see logical reason why IE should operate it.....far more efficient in terms of cost and operations.

High frequency and easy transit is most important to people,
There is nothing stopping the spur been developed as a separate project for IE. We all know the N Commuter needs a third rail but that in it'

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And with heavy rail to the airport the same will be required, you cannot have a direct link from everywhere to one location.

As for the metro corridor, the North route into the city is fastest growing in terms of population.

So you want DARTS from Bray, Graystones, Howth, Malahide, Maynooth, Intercity and Louth services to all run to the airport directly? It just isn't possible.

This metro line will likely be the first of many if it's gets built so a hub at SSG with Luas is logical and DU if happens will also be there.

Heavy rail to airport would offer about 15 routes from around the country into 1 direct link with 1 change of trains.

Fastest grown now maybe. Think 10 years time we won't even have a tunnel within the next 6 or 7 years. Commuters will want travel to other places other than SSG as well.

I also fail to see what benefit there is for passengers using the metro from the airport. Can't see it appealing to many travelling to SSG and either hop on a bus or luas from here.


Personally I'd run a Dart metro from malahide to Broombridge via swords and Airport creating 2 or 3 routes for Swords and Airport passengers, obviously with Dart on the maynooth line. People in swords could go via northern line, Maynooth line or change to Luas at Broombridge. That alone connects the whole of North dublin.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I still cannot see logical reason why IE should operate it.....far more efficient in terms of cost and operations.

Unfortunately IE is hated with a passion by the Civil Servants and the politicians in the Dept of Transport and in the Dail. That is why Transdev got the gig and also why Luas is on standard gauge (4ft 8.5 inches) rather than the Irish gauge (1.6m) - it makes it easier for them to make sure there cannot be any interoperability with Irish Rail.

[The same hatred applies to RTE - they are also hated in the same way.]

BeepBeep67

tabbey wrote: »

The strikers would be the train operators. These people are on every DLR train, they check everybody is safely on board, before closing the doors and instructing the computer to drive on.

The operator also is available to drive manually if the need arises.

Operator on strike! -no DLR service.

However I do not know about the VAL metro systems in most French cities. These are so small and frequent that apart from occupying 10% of the space, an operator on every set would be highly labour intensive. These are probably remotely supervised.

I was in London late last year when the DLR was on strike, fun and games getting to LCY, ended up on a bus from the sixties

tabbey

MGWR wrote: »

This pic shows mixed 1600-mm and 1435-mm gauge tracks in Geelong, Australia, with points included.

The problem with dual gauge track in Victoria, is two fold;

1, the track layout is more complex, leading to extra expense, and potential for quality defects.

2, because the gap between the inner rail and outer rail is only about 3 inches, (six and a half inches less width of rail) it can become obstructed with stones or other debris, which could cause a derailment. Consequently the broad gauge speed is restricted to 80 km/h (50mph).

Sam Russell

MGWR wrote: »

This pic shows mixed 1600-mm and 1435-mm gauge tracks in Geelong, Australia, with points included. It's doable, but increases expense.

Looking at that photograph, it is obviously unworkable on anything more than a temporary fix. Points would be a nightmare to maintain - the gap is too small to be safe.

Also many paths in Ireland are single line working - how would that work?

dowlingm

The Toronto Crosstown light rail line (2020ish opening) will be ATO in tunnel while fully segregated, and driver operated in at grade right of way, equipment being 2-3 unit trains of 30m long 2.65m wide Flexity LFLRVs on 1435mm rail (despite the gnashing of teeth from railfans that the downtown Toronto 1495mm gauge wasn't used)

While ATO in controlled trackage is a mature technology, to invoke utterly dissimilar systems like Skytrain and DLR to imply it is workable in LUAS streetrunning context is ridiculous.

Utdfan20titles

Least if their was no drivers, the ****ers couldnt go on strike haha

Idbatterim

could new metro north be designed as a driverless system, as far as ranelagh, where it is proposed to merge with metro south? if you could even get from ranelagh etc to airport without drivers, near 24 hour a day operation, it would be fantastic.

An airport line needs to run later and start earlier, than current luas, ideally it would only be closed for maintenance.

I think its mad given we are going to have unrest every few years, to not automate this line as much as possible.

Wages are the biggest cost I believe in transport. Imagine how much you could cut fares without them and get a massive increase in passengers...

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

could new metro north be designed as a driverless system, as far as ranelagh, where it is proposed to merge with metro south? if you could even get from ranelagh etc to airport without drivers, near 24 hour a day operation, it would be fantastic.

An airport line needs to run later and start earlier, than current luas, ideally it would only be closed for maintenance.

I think its mad given we are going to have unrest every few years, to not automate this line as much as possible.

Wages are the biggest cost I believe in transport. Imagine how much you could cut fares without them and get a massive increase in passengers...

fares aren't going to be cut, drivers or no drivers, wages or no wages.
a day or 2 unrest every few years is only a small inconvenience. the lot should be built as heavy rail and integrated into the existing network, with the necessary extra tracking which needs to happen anyway.

MGWR

tabbey wrote: »

The problem with dual gauge track in Victoria, is two fold:

1. The track layout is more complex, leading to extra expense, and potential for quality defects.
2. Because the gap between the inner rail and outer rail is only about 3 inches (six and a half inches less width of rail), it can become obstructed with stones or other debris, which could cause a derailment. Consequently the broad gauge speed is restricted to 80 km/h (50mph).

That's why it's only in terminal areas and not long stretches of mainline. That would be fast enough for such places.

As things stand, though, Luas' top speed is 43 mph.